what happens if the earth military dies.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Thats how a lot of military bases work. Civillian contractors work for the military and have to follow their orders

yep, if they didn't want to work under the military, they probably should have chosen not to work under the military in the first place, when they went to Icarus

*shrugs* I'm one of those people that doesn't see a military dictatorship, but meh. Every society has rules. Even if the civilians took over, you'd still be dealing with rules, or they wouldn't live long.

[KEK]

Thats how a lot of military bases work. Civillian contractors work for the military and have to follow their orders

Yes, but this isn't a military base. None of the civilians on board are under contracted to work here, they're refugees. The US military has no jurisdiction over the ship, or any authority over the civilians there.

[jelgate]

Yes, but this isn't a military base. None of the civilians on board are under contracted to work here, they're refugees. The US military has no jurisdiction over the ship, or any authority over the civilians there.

They agreed to work on Icarus. Just because an emergency rose doesn't mean those promise to follow the military's command changes

[KEK]

They agreed to work on Icarus. Just because an emergency rose doesn't mean those promise to follow the military's command changes

It's a bit more than an emergency, the job they signed up for is now non-existent, they are no longer employed.

[jelgate]

It's a bit more than an emergency, the job they signed up for is now non-existent, they are no longer employed.

They are still required to obey the military as thier contract stilll exists. Their are civillians overseas for example and they would still have to follow the order of the CO if the base got attacked until the civilians were returned to civilization

[KEK]

They are still required to obey the military as thier contract stilll exists. Their are civillians overseas for example and they would still have to follow the order of the CO if the base got attacked until the civilians were returned to civilization

That's not the same thing, they're not on a military base, the US military has no jurisdiction over Destiny. Their contracts are null and void, and even if they weren't, civilians can choose to leave their jobs if they want. That would be a problem on Icarus as it's a military base, but not on Destiny, which belongs to no one.

[jelgate]

That's not the same thing, they're not on a military base, the US military has no jurisdiction over Destiny. Their contracts are null and void, and even if they weren't, civilians can choose to leave their jobs if they want. That would be a problem on Icarus as it's a military base, but not on Destiny, which belongs to no one.

The Icarus Base was aimed at finding the 9th chevron so it makes sense it would be a miltary establiishment as well especially since Jack wanted Telford or Young to lead once it was locked. That enough shows they do have jursdiction on Destiny. And no once a contract is signed the civilians agreed to work for the military for x amount of years

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

It's a bit more than an emergency, the job they signed up for is now non-existent, they are no longer employed.

The Icarus Base was aimed at finding the 9th chevron so it makes sense it would be a miltary establiishment as well especially since Jack wanted Telford or Young to lead once it was locked. That enough shows they do have jursdiction on Destiny. And no once a contract is signed the civilians agreed to work for the military for x amount of years

Jelgate got to it first, but yeah, the "job", as in the 9th chevron mission, hasn't gone anywhere and all these scientists have signed contracts to be where they are. It's not like they were rounded up at gunpoint and made to work at Icarus Base under the military. If the theory that the military is no longer in charge simply because they've gone through a wormhole and ended up somewhere was a valid one, then that would have to hold true for every single mission the SGC has ever gone on and that way lies chaos. There is one or possibly two people that could be said to be in a different situation and that's Chloe and possibly Eli. One would have never signed a contract with the military and the other we've seen has only signed a non-disclosure agreement although we don't know what else was involved. Everyone else? They worked under the military before, by choice. I don't see how that has changed.

[KEK]

The Icarus Base was aimed at finding the 9th chevron so it makes sense it would be a miltary establiishment as well especially since Jack wanted Telford or Young to lead once it was locked. That enough shows they do have jursdiction on Destiny.

The people that evacuated to Destiny are not the same people who were supposed to join the expedition, this has been made clear, none of them signed up for this. The fact that the US military wanted to take control of Destiny is irrelevant, that doesn't make it theirs any more than any of the other refugees that ended up there. It's an alien space ship, it doesn't belong to anyone.

And no once a contract is signed the civilians agreed to work for the military for x amount of years

You've just made that up. Even if it were true though, and the contracts were not null and void as they appear, we still know from past experience that civilians working for the SGC (Daniel Jackson being a prime example) can leave their jobs whenever they like, just like any civilians working with the military can do in real life, so it really makes no difference. The civilians have no obligation to follow the commands of the military, as evidence by their attempt at a revolution. Young holds power by force alone - that's a fact.

[Gollumpus]

That's not the same thing, they're not on a military base, the US military has no jurisdiction over Destiny. Their contracts are null and void, and even if they weren't, civilians can choose to leave their jobs if they want. That would be a problem on Icarus as it's a military base, but not on Destiny, which belongs to no one.

Hokay then, if their contracts are null and void the military is under no obligation to these people. I suggest the various civilians who do not wish to be under military command should remove themselves to a different part of the ship. I'm not sure what they are going to do for food or water (as that is in the hands of the military) and if they want to be protected from any incursions from the LA or blue aliens or wandering bands of furlings... well, I'm not sure what they would do.

regards,
G.

[KEK]

Hokay then, if their contracts are null and void the military is under no obligation to these people. I suggest the various civilians who do not wish to be under military command should remove themselves to a different part of the ship. I'm not sure what they are going to do for food or water (as that is in the hands of the military) and if they want to be protected from any incursions from the LA or blue aliens or wandering bands of furlings... well, I'm not sure what they would do.

regards,
G.

And when the ship needs fixing who are the military going to come crying to? Obviously they need to work together, but a military dictatorship isn't the way to do that, especially given that Young is such a poor commander. They should elect a leader like any civilized society would do, or at the very least form a civilian union that Young would have to work with.

[jelgate]

The people that evacuated to Destiny are not the same people who were supposed to join the expedition, this has been made clear, none of them signed up for this. The fact that the US military wanted to take control of Destiny is irrelevant, that doesn't make it theirs any more than any of the other refugees that ended up there. It's an alien space ship, it doesn't belong to anyone.

Doesn't matter. They were still under orders to follow the military personel. Just because an attack occurs doesn't mean those contracts no longer apply. Just look at the real world. Under attack civilians and the aftermath civilians are still required to listen to the military

You've just made that up. Even if it were true though, and the contracts were not null and void as they appear, we still know from past experience that civilians working for the SGC (Daniel Jackson being a prime example) can leave their jobs whenever they like, just like any civilians working with the military can do in real life, so it really makes no difference. The civilians have no obligation to follow the commands of the military, as evidence by their attempt at a revolution. Young holds power by force alone - that's a fact.

No I didn't. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you should throw out unproven accusations. I'd counter with saying that McKay when he regretting his civiliians contract couldn't quit until it expired. Just because the civilians muntied doesn't mean they were right in the civillians should have the control. Its the military. Force is a given.

[KEK]

Doesn't matter. They were still under orders to follow the military personel. Just because an attack occurs doesn't mean those contracts no longer apply. Just look at the real world. Under attack civilians and the aftermath civilians are still required to listen to the military

While they're in a military facility under the control of the military? Yes, but that's not what we're talking about, they're on an alien ship that they were evacuated to, you're comparing two completely different scenarios. As soon as they became refugees and their place of work was destroyed, their contract would have probably been rendered null and void. Not that it would matter either way as civilians can leave their jobs whenever the hell they like.

No I didn't. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you should throw out unproven accusations.

We have no idea what the contract says. Therefore any assertion you make about what it says is made up.

I'd counter with saying that McKay when he regretting his civiliians contract couldn't quit until it expired.

Source? I don't remember that happening. It's been referenced many times throughout the series that civilians can quit whenever they like, as they can in real life.

Just because the civilians muntied doesn't mean they were right in the civillians should have the control.

I never said they should have control, I said that the military have no jurisdiction over them.

[Gollumpus]

And when the ship needs fixing who are the military going to come crying to? Obviously they need to work together, but a military dictatorship isn't the way to do that, especially given that Young is such a poor commander. They should elect a leader like any civilized society would do, or at the very least form a civilian union that Young would have to work with.

Well, there's a few folks in the military who are kinda' smart (eg. Riley), and I kinda' suspect that not all of the civilians will tow the Wray-line and wish to separate from the military, and if the ship needs fixing then it is just as much in the civilians interest to see that it gets fixed, or are you suggesting that they would only fix the "civilian" side of the ship?

I would disagree with you that these people are not under military command. Just because the place of employment has changed does not nullify contracts. These folks have an obligation to respect the military command under which they find themselves. If you think otherwise, I'd like to know if these folks have also agreed to end any payments from the SGC? I suspect they will want their back-pay if/when they do get back.

I'm still kind of amazed at this call for a civilian government. These people are in constant contact with the SGC. It's not like they are out on a desert island somewhere with no chance of ever contacting home again. We are talking about a group of people who have only recently (a few months) been in their current position. We are talking about maybe 80 people. There are more senators in the USA then there are people on Destiny. And in this new society, does the military get a vote? If more military were to vote than civilians does that make Young the leader?

Who would be the best choice to lead this society? Rush? Hardly. Rush would hate all the interruptions which leadership role would force on him. Wray? I'm sure she'd love the job, and she'd do her best. However, Wray has proven herself in the last while to be less than capable in any kind of leadership role. Chloe?

Let's assume there is some kind of civilian "government" and let's put Wray in charge. What does Wray do? Well, she'd get Young to give her regular reports about food, water, ammunition and general combat readiness of the troops. Great, so Young gets these reports from his subordinates and passes them on to Wray. I see this being a great improvement in their lot. The population will see that the military is not holding out on them... unless someone comes up with the idea that Wray is in concert with the military and she is getting extra rations, and where's her transparency...

Who makes the rules of governance? Wray, or some panel of elected people, and who elects them (and can anyone from the military be on this panel)? What level of legal complexity are we talking about? And what if some portion of the society choose to not follow the rules? Wray asks them nicely, then more firmly and finally, "orders" Young to bring in the martial law to control the situation until everyone is towing the line? Oh wait, wouldn't that be more like a military dictatorship like you suggest we have under Young?

regards,
G.

[KEK]

Well, there's a few folks in the military who are kinda' smart (eg. Riley), and I kinda' suspect that not all of the civilians will tow the Wray-line and wish to separate from the military, and if the ship needs fixing then it is just as much in the civilians interest to see that it gets fixed, or are you suggesting that they would only fix the "civilian" side of the ship?

Then it's also in the military's best interests to allow them food and water.

I would disagree with you that these people are not under military command. Just because the place of employment has changed does not nullify contracts. These folks have an obligation to respect the military command under which they find themselves. If you think otherwise, I'd like to know if these folks have also agreed to end any payments from the SGC? I suspect they will want their back-pay if/when they do get back.

I think pay cheques are the least of their problems, they've already tried to take the ship by force, which suggests to me they're willing to sever their ties with the military full stop if need be. Also, even if the contracts haven't been left null and void, there's nothing stopping the civilians from terminating them anyway, so it doesn't really matter either way.

I'm still kind of amazed at this call for a civilian government. These people are in constant contact with the SGC. It's not like they are out on a desert island somewhere with no chance of ever contacting home again. We are talking about a group of people who have only recently (a few months) been in their current position. We are talking about maybe 80 people. There are more senators in the USA then there are people on Destiny. And in this new society, does the military get a vote? If more military were to vote than civilians does that make Young the leader?

I suppose it would, assuming that they'd vote for Young.

Let's assume there is some kind of civilian "government" and let's put Wray in charge. What does Wray do? Well, she'd get Young to give her regular reports about food, water, ammunition and general combat readiness of the troops. Great, so Young gets these reports from his subordinates and passes them on to Wray. I see this being a great improvement in their lot. The population will see that the military is not holding out on them... unless someone comes up with the idea that Wray is in concert with the military and she is getting extra rations, and where's her transparency...

Who makes the rules of governance? Wray, or some panel of elected people, and who elects them (and can anyone from the military be on this panel)? What level of legal complexity are we talking about? And what if some portion of the society choose to not follow the rules? Wray asks them nicely, then more firmly and finally, "orders" Young to bring in the martial law to control the situation until everyone is towing the line? Oh wait, wouldn't that be more like a military dictatorship like you suggest we have under Young?

Uh, you realise that that was just a giant straw man, right? You're arguing against a system that I never suggested. Besides, functionality isn't the issue here, it's the morality of imposing a military dictatorship on people. I'm arguing that Young has no right to command (the civilians at least), and that they as a group need to learn to work together without oppression or threat of violence. How they might overcome that challenge is a different discussion entirely.