My thoughts about Sam and Jack in the third movie (spec and spoilers)

[Aragon101]

Well, just to clear this negativity I must say that both as a shipper and a team fan I loved how Moebius/Threads ended. Yes, it had a Jack/Sam focus but it also included the team (what a shame Jonas wasn't with them though) and it fulfilled the wish of many SG-1 fans: the whole team together, fishing, at Jack's cabin. I'd be happy if the third movie ended in a similar way, although I very much doubt it will happen again, so don't worry.

And is it really about the ship or the fact that focus wasn't on one's favourite character? I mean no offence to anyone but I've seen fans who demand team focus whenever there's a mention of S/J being perfectly ok with, or even demanding, J/D focus in the last scene. (not in a slashy way) So how much of the problem with the ending is really S/J ship and how much not seeing one's favourite characters in their stead?

The whole is greater than the sum of their parts. Look at (NOT threads, i think it was Lost City) when Daniel, Teal'c and Jack are drinking and Daniel has his famous "Teal'c your so deep" line.

As a team, they come off very awesomely if they're all participating, when it's just Jack and Sam being all snuggly wuggly, of COURSE you want to see the other characters and take that edge {mod snip} out with some funny and heartfelt friend stuff. Seeing htem IN THE BACKGROUND of both of those scenes felt more like Jack and Sam going "Aww, we're the only thing that really matters, let the fish, we're together!"

Eugh.

It'd be a nice change to get more Jack/Daniel, Jack/Teal'c, since they're great friends and they have the chemistry of friendship, not the tension and anxiety of potential romance. Teal'c making some thesaurus related joke, Daniel making asarcastic quip, Sam being hopeful for her next mission, and Jack just glad to be there. That's what i want to see in the third SG1 movie i HOPE i get it. But i'm not THAT hopeful given what i saw in S9-10,AOT/Continuum.

[Frostfox]

Well, just to clear this negativity I must say that both as a shipper and a team fan I loved how Moebius/Threads ended. Yes, it had a Jack/Sam focus but it also included the team (what a shame Jonas wasn't with them though) and it fulfilled the wish of many SG-1 fans: the whole team together, fishing, at Jack's cabin. I'd be happy if the third movie ended in a similar way, although I very much doubt it will happen again, so don't worry.

And is it really about the ship or the fact that focus wasn't on one's favourite character? I mean no offence to anyone but I've seen fans who demand team focus whenever there's a mention of S/J being perfectly ok with, or even demanding, J/D focus in the last scene. (not in a slashy way) So how much of the problem with the ending is really S/J ship and how much not seeing one's favourite characters in their stead?

I didn't want Daniel and Jack on that pier, I wanted Jack, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c given equal precedence as RDA was leaving and SG1 had been, for eight years about the four characters, not two characters and those other guys.
Why should the end of the the show have a Sam/Jack focus? What's 'team' about that, it feeds back to my assertion that Sam/Jack never enhanced SG1, only detracted.
I can have a favourite character without ever wanting them to dominate over all the others. I like the Team best of all the characters.

FF

[flynn1959]

Well, just to clear this negativity I must say that both as a shipper and a team fan I loved how Moebius/Threads ended. Yes, it had a Jack/Sam focus but it also included the team (what a shame Jonas wasn't with them though) and it fulfilled the wish of many SG-1 fans: the whole team together, fishing, at Jack's cabin. I'd be happy if the third movie ended in a similar way, although I very much doubt it will happen again, so don't worry.

And is it really about the ship or the fact that focus wasn't on one's favourite character? I mean no offence to anyone but I've seen fans who demand team focus whenever there's a mention of S/J being perfectly ok with, or even demanding, J/D focus in the last scene. (not in a slashy way) So how much of the problem with the ending is really S/J ship and how much not seeing one's favourite characters in their stead?

My problem with the end of threads wasn't that it focused on Sam and Jack, as I didn't see it that way, all four of them were there after all. My problem was the fact that it clearly showed that from that moment on the real team were gone for good. Everything since that point is an AU/AT. But that's off topic for this thread.

As to the final scene of this movie, if it ever gets made, I doubt there would be many people who would have a problem with it being focused on J/D, it would be a nice way to end the whole thing. The two original characters from the first movie sharing a moment would be fitting. It can even take place at Jack's cabin in the company of Teal'c and Sam, the original four from the series.

[Ashizuri]

What I have never noticed is a relationship of a romantic/sexual nature between them.

Kerry Johnson noticed the feelings when she said to Jack in Threads "Is the Air Force the only thing keeping you two apart? Rules and regulations? Cos if it is, you’re making a very big mistake." Jack and Sam's feelings for eachother were played up very big at the end of season 8 with no real payoff, so I can understand the J/S fans wanting to know what the deal is.

Daniel and Vala are another issue and some would say they have already had a canon confirmation, after all, they did get together, not in an AU either and as Teal'c still remembers that relationship I think it would be hard to ignore or deny the ship. If I heard any D/V shippers calling for further confirmation in the movie or for it to include a romantic scene between them or to be D/V heavy you bet your boots I'd be there.

Sure D/V got an alternate timeline confirmation, and yeah Teal'c remembers it, but that Daniel and that Vala don't exist anymore and that relationship never happened for our Daniel and Vala so if D/V fans were to get a subtle scene in a movie that lets the fans know the state of their relationship it wouldn't bother me so long as it didn't take away from the team.

@ col aga: I sheepishly admit I am one of those people who wouldn't have minded Jack and Daniel on the pier together with Teal'c and Sam in the background but was bothered by Sam and Jack. My hypocrisy, it burns.

[flynn1959]

Kerry Johnson noticed the feelings when she said to Jack in Threads "Is the Air Force the only thing keeping you two apart? Rules and regulations? Cos if it is, you’re making a very big mistake." Jack and Sam's feelings for eachother were played up very big at the end of season 8 with no real payoff, so I can understand the J/S fans wanting to know what the deal is.




.

Well as my name isn't Kerry Johnson that has nothing at all to do with what I've seen does it. And if memory serves she never mentioned any name, she could have been talking about Daniel, or Teal'c or Siler, or Walter or just about any member of the SGC.

[Ashizuri]

Well as my name isn't Kerry Johnson that has nothing at all to do with what I've seen does it. And if memory serves she never mentioned any name, she could have been talking about Daniel, or Teal'c or Siler, or Walter or just about any member of the SGC.

Yes, she was talking about Siler.

[Frostfox]

Yes, she was talking about Siler.

Tsk, how can you deny the Siler/Wrench love?

FF

[Petra]

Of course I have noticed the characters, I'm not blind, I just don't like the two of them in scenes together. They have zero chemistry and quite frankly I find them boring. What I have never noticed is a relationship of a romantic/sexual nature between them. And for me if a movie or a series links two characters together in that way I need to see some chemistry between them to find it a) believable and b) enjoyable.

Ok, if you don't see the chemistry and find them boring, that's a fair point and I can hardly argue about something so subjective. After all I don't see that much touted chemistry between Daniel and Vala, so I'm in no position to make comments. But throughout the series there were many events (I mentioned them a few posts ago) which indicated romantic feelings on part of Jack and Sam and you still didn't say what they are in your opinion if not romantic.

Daniel and Vala are another issue and some would say they have already had a canon confirmation, after all, they did get together, not in an AU either and as Teal'c still remembers that relationship I think it would be hard to ignore or deny the ship. If I heard any D/V shippers calling for further confirmation in the movie or for it to include a romantic scene between them or to be D/V heavy you bet your boots I'd be there. IMO ship of any kind between any of the characters has no place in the movie, it belongs in ff.

Why are they another issue? They are both leads, they are both on the same team and there are moments in the show/movies meant to suggest there are some romantic feelings between them. Sounds exactly like Sam and Jack to me.

As for the bolded part, would you be so kind as to rephrase it? I'm not a native speaker and it sounds, probably because of my insufficient command of English, contradictory. I'm not sure if you meant you'd be "there" with those calling for the D/V ship or those who don't want it.

The whole is greater than the sum of their parts. Look at (NOT threads, i think it was Lost City) when Daniel, Teal'c and Jack are drinking and Daniel has his famous "Teal'c your so deep" line.

Sam was there too, you know

As a team, they come off very awesomely if they're all participating, when it's just Jack and Sam being all snuggly wuggly, of COURSE you want to see the other characters and take that edge {mod snip} out with some funny and heartfelt friend stuff. Seeing htem IN THE BACKGROUND of both of those scenes felt more like Jack and Sam going "Aww, we're the only thing that really matters, let the fish, we're together!"

I didn't want Daniel and Jack on that pier, I wanted Jack, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c given equal precedence as RDA was leaving and SG1 had been, for eight years about the four characters, not two characters and those other guys.
Why should the end of the the show have a Sam/Jack focus? What's 'team' about that, it feeds back to my assertion that Sam/Jack never enhanced SG1, only detracted.
I can have a favourite character without ever wanting them to dominate over all the others. I like the Team best of all the characters.

Well, there's not much to say to this except: I saw it differently and your interpretation never even crossed my mind. I know what you mean but I still don't see it. But we already covered the fact that shippers and anti-shippers see some scenes and the characters in different light and there's nothing anybody can do with it. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it but I can't say I wish it was done differently because personally I loved it. *shrug*

It'd be a nice change to get more Jack/Daniel, Jack/Teal'c, since they're great friends and they have the chemistry of friendship, not the tension and anxiety of potential romance. Teal'c making some thesaurus related joke, Daniel making asarcastic quip, Sam being hopeful for her next mission, and Jack just glad to be there. That's what i want to see in the third SG1 movie i HOPE i get it. But i'm not THAT hopeful given what i saw in S9-10,AOT/Continuum.

On this we can agree. I'd love to see such scene and maybe if Threads/Moebius were a bit longer we would have got it.

@ col aga: I sheepishly admit I am one of those people who wouldn't have minded Jack and Daniel on the pier together with Teal'c and Sam in the background but was bothered by Sam and Jack. My hypocrisy, it burns.

For this, suffer in eternal fire!

Seriously though, it's ok. Every fan has their bias and being honest about it clears the air (and discussion). I mean hey, I admit that last scene had slight S/J slant but I still find it teamy and appropriate and, well, great. I'm sure that's how you'd feel with J/D slant, no biggie.

On a slightly different note, even leaving ship out of the equasion Jack and Sam are my favourite SG characters and this also played a part, hence my original question: is it about the relationships or the characters themselves. I honestly don't have an answer. Yet.

[Aragon101]

Ok, if you don't see the chemistry and find them boring, that's a fair point and I can hardly argue about something so subjective. After all I don't see that much touted chemistry between Daniel and Vala, so I'm in no position to make comments. But throughout the series there were many events (I mentioned them a few posts ago) which indicated romantic feelings on part of Jack and Sam and you still didn't say what they are in your opinion if not romantic.

I think Daniel and Vala oozed sexual tension (even if it was a little once-sided) but Daniel has feelings too since he doesn't just swat her away (until Unending but i hated that scene) Look at their very first meeting on Prometheus, then the majority of their interactions. I'm more included to believe Daniel/Vala than i am Sam/Jack because at least we see progression from beating the crap out of each other, to actual care. With Sam/Jack it was always rules and regs, until it was a little more then athat, and it stayed like that for almots a decade.

Why are they another issue? They are both leads, they are both on the same team and there are moments in the show/movies meant to suggest there are some romantic feelings between them. Sounds exactly like Sam and Jack to me.

As i mentioned above, Daniel/Vala is different because evne though they ARE leads, they haven't been the focus for a decade. If Daniel/Vala got together in the third movie, how much time has passed for them? maybe 3-4 years? Hmmm pretty cose to Jack/Sam "Divide and Conquer" which is where the ship died for me because it didn't live.

Sam was there too, you know

If i recall she didn't have many lines, but it was still a 'team' moment and not strictly focusing on a 'pairing' instead of the team

Well, there's not much to say to this except: I saw it differently and your interpretation never even crossed my mind. I know what you mean but I still don't see it. But we already covered the fact that shippers and anti-shippers see some scenes and the characters in different light and there's nothing anybody can do with it. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it but I can't say I wish it was done differently because personally I loved it. *shrug*

There's something to be said about seeing a scene differently, but this scene specifically is clearly Jack/Sam because do the others even have any lines? Is the camera focused on the team or on Jack/Sam? I recall the scene going something like the camera panning out, then when it nice and far away, we realize "oh wait! they're not alone!" and the rest of the team pops up almost like an afterthought. That bothered me because SG-1 suddenly became SG-.5 with the others 'just there' Kinda the same with the scene in Lost City with Daniel's line, Sam was 'just there' but the majority of the team (including Hammond) were intereacting.

Seriously though, it's ok. Every fan has their bias and being honest about it clears the air (and discussion). I mean hey, I admit that last scene had slight S/J slant but I still find it teamy and appropriate and, well, great. I'm sure that's how you'd feel with J/D slant, no biggie.

See my above reply on this scene.

On a slightly different note, even leaving ship out of the equasion Jack and Sam are my favourite SG characters and this also played a part, hence my original question: is it about the relationships or the characters themselves. I honestly don't have an answer. Yet.

on this we agree Jack and Sam are my favorite characters as well in SG-1 and i adore their friendship, but when it comes to romance i really don't see anything that says "romance" to me. Just "tension" and "Bleh"

[Melora]

In the spirit of Ashizuri's honesty about the fishing scene...

I was just a tiny, little bit annoyed that Daniel and Teal’c were there at all. Just goes to show you that people see and enjoy different things. I would have loved if Moebius had ended with all four going up the ramp together on one last mission instead of everyone being at Jack’s cabin. Or why not have all four enjoying a quiet barbeque in Jack’s backyard? I do understand why they did it that way. They wanted something they could use at the end of both ‘Threads’ and ‘Moebius’ to conclude the time travel story in a clever way. But personally, when Sam and Jack (finally) went fishing, I wanted it to be on their own – just the two of them. So I agree that the scene wasn’t the best way to end the season, especially since it really was the end of classic SG-1.

Likewise, one of my least liked episodes of the last season was ‘The Shroud.’ It seemed like it focused on Jack/Daniel to the exclusion of almost everyone else and it irritated me that it was RDA’s very last appearance on the show. So I can see where J/D or S/D fans are coming from and why they might not like episodes that focus more on S/J.

It's only natural to want to watch the characters you enjoy the most. It’s also really annoying when your favorite characters are not really given the chance to frequently interact on a meaningful basis. And even though I hated ‘The Shroud’ and will probably never watch it again, I was happy for many of the J/D fans who got to see their two favorites together, front and center for the last time – just like I was happy for the D/V fans in ‘Unending’ and the McKay/Keller fans who got to see their ships resolved. You don’t have to like or even tolerate a ship or a particular pairing to be happy for other fans when they get something they have been wanting for a long time.

And although I would be unbelievably disappointed, I would also be happy for the fans of any pairing if they got to see their ship/slash resolved and confirmed in the last movie - even if it meant the final death knell for my favorite pairing.

[slurredspeech]

@ col aga: I sheepishly admit I am one of those people who wouldn't have minded Jack and Daniel on the pier together with Teal'c and Sam in the background but was bothered by Sam and Jack. My hypocrisy, it burns.

This is why I love you (aren't I awfully cozy with the non-S/J shippers. Blasphemy! ) Personal preferences influence what we want and do not want. You own it. I sooo bloody respect that.

It's not hypocrisy. It's win.

[Frostfox]

Ok, if you don't see the chemistry and find them boring, that's a fair point and I can hardly argue about something so subjective. After all I don't see that much touted chemistry between Daniel and Vala, so I'm in no position to make comments. But throughout the series there were many events (I mentioned them a few posts ago) which indicated romantic feelings on part of Jack and Sam and you still didn't say what they are in your opinion if not romantic.

I see chemistry between RDA and Amanda. I see chemistry between Jack/Sam/Daniel/Teal'c. I don't see romantic chemistry between Sam/Jack. Which makes the romantic scenes between them fall very flat and dull.

Well, there's not much to say to this except: I saw it differently and your interpretation never even crossed my mind. I know what you mean but I still don't see it. But we already covered the fact that shippers and anti-shippers see some scenes and the characters in different light and there's nothing anybody can do with it. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it but I can't say I wish it was done differently because personally I loved it. *shrug*

Ignore any pro or romantic feelings. Just look at that scene in Möbius. How much of that scene is of RDA and AT on the dock? How much is Michael and Chris walking out from behind the building? How does five minutes of two characters and forty seconds of the other two equate to a team ending? Why shouldn't fans of all four characters get a satisfying conclusion? Why don't Michael and Chris get any lines? Why couldn't the four of them be lined up on chairs on the dock? What does Sam/Jack add to that scene that a Team ending, for all the fans, not just the Sam/Jack fans, wouldn't have?

On a slightly different note, even leaving ship out of the equasion Jack and Sam are my favourite SG characters and this also played a part, hence my original question: is it about the relationships or the characters themselves. I honestly don't have an answer. Yet.

Sam and Daniel are my favourites. I feel no inclination to put them in a romantic relationship, nor would I have wanted just Sam and Daniel sat on that dock.

I want the last scene of the original SG1 in the next film to be all four main characters. I want them all to speak, to interact, to care about each other more than they are supposed to. All of them. I don't want two of the four to get any more screen time than the other two, I want my last memories of the team to be inclusive, not exclusive.

Because, to me, that's what SG1 was all about.

Not Sam's story. Not Daniel's. Not Jack's. Not Teal'c's. Not Sam/Jack, Daniel/Jack, Jack/Teal'c or any other combo. Team, all four of them, not two, plus those other guys.

FF

[Ashizuri]

I think Daniel and Vala oozed sexual tension (even if it was a little once-sided) but Daniel has feelings too since he doesn't just swat her away (until Unending but i hated that scene). Look at their very first meeting on Prometheus, then the majority of their interactions.

See, I see the chemistry between MS and CB, and I think they work fabulously together at times, I just think they pushed it too far. In every scene they shared there was banter and teasing and cutesy flirting. D/V got as much progression in two seasons and a movie and Jack and Sam got in 8 seasons and it was just overkill. For me, it would have been just as bad as taking every single Jack/Sam moment and condensing it into two seasons. *shudders*

I see chemistry between RDA and Amanda. I see chemistry between Jack/Sam/Daniel/Teal'c.

Is this the time to mention how I thought Jack/Fraiser had chemistry that was off the charts?

I want the last scene of the original SG1 in the next film to be all four main characters. I want them all to speak, to interact, to care about each other more than they are supposed to. All of them.

Yes please. I want to see a bit of Jack/Sam in the movie. I'd like to see them get their happy ending. I just don't want it to come at the expense of my teaminess.

This is why I love you (aren't I awfully cozy with the non-S/J shippers. Blasphemy! ) Personal preferences influence what we want and do not want. You own it. I sooo bloody respect that.

It's not hypocrisy. It's win.

Awwwww. <3
I am pretty awesome though...

[Aragon101]

See, I see the chemistry between MS and CB, and I think they work fabulously together at times, I just think they pushed it too far. In every scene they shared there was banter and teasing and cutesy flirting. D/V got as much progression in two seasons and a movie and Jack and Sam got in 8 seasons and it was just overkill. For me, it would have been just as bad as taking every single Jack/Sam moment and condensing it into two seasons. *shudders*

But that's realistic. If they truly felt attraction, then it's not like they're going to spend 8 years dancing around one another like a pair of neutron stars, both too dense to get together or stay apart.

Yes they were over the top, but that fits Vala's character. If Jack and Sam had been shown to be spending more "quality" time with each other, not even something big, maybe just a game of chess before a mission or Sam returning his Simpson VHS/DVDs. Maybe a basketball game or even weight training. it would have made the ship INTENSELY more believable. Instead we get constant reminders that Jack likes fishing, Sam likes working on Nqquadah power generators, and never teh twain shall meet until the entire universe pushes them together.

I'm not against Sam/Jack because of their characters, i'm against it because i don't find the way they got together believable... AT ALL.

Is this the time to mention how I thought Jack/Fraiser had chemistry that was off the charts?

They so did

Yes please. I want to see a bit of Jack/Sam in the movie. I'd like to see them get their happy ending. I just don't want it to come at the expense of my teaminess

. Alas, precedent tells us otherwise. I'm not a fan of Sam/Jack or Daniel/Jack ship/slash. I just want the team. there's no single pairing i feel this need to see more of in SG1.

[Petra]

Melora, I adore you. Awesome post, definitely green-worthy although my fridge is locked for now

I think Daniel and Vala oozed sexual tension (even if it was a little once-sided) but Daniel has feelings too since he doesn't just swat her away (until Unending but i hated that scene) Look at their very first meeting on Prometheus, then the majority of their interactions. I'm more included to believe Daniel/Vala than i am Sam/Jack because at least we see progression from beating the crap out of each other, to actual care. With Sam/Jack it was always rules and regs, until it was a little more then athat, and it stayed like that for almots a decade.

As i mentioned above, Daniel/Vala is different because evne though they ARE leads, they haven't been the focus for a decade. If Daniel/Vala got together in the third movie, how much time has passed for them? maybe 3-4 years? Hmmm pretty cose to Jack/Sam "Divide and Conquer" which is where the ship died for me because it didn't live.

Sorry mate, you won't convince me D/V "oozes sexual tension" and there's no way I'll rewatch PU again. I've seen it 2 times and each time found it to be nothing but a torture. Painful torture. The only decent bit in this ep is the first 30 seconds (Jack and Daniel walking down the corridor and arguing). Where you see sexual tension I see annoyance and one-sided flirting. I was cringing the whole time.

And once again I see the evolution of S/J vs D/V very differently than you. I see S/J "oozing sexual tension", to borrow your phrase. I see sparks flying when they first meet at the briefing room table. I see how they learn to work together, gain each other implicit trust and loyalty throughout season 1, become friends in season 2, start to realise there's something more than simple friendship between them in season 3, confront their feelings in season 4, distance themselves from each other in an attempt to cope in season 5, grow closer together in season 6, start to doubt their future together and therefore try to settle down with someone more available an season 7 and 8 and finally overcome all the obstacles and get together at the end of season 8. As you can see, I hardly view their post-season 4 ship as "dead"; all 8 seasons make sense for me ship-wise and tell one fluid, natural story.

And to be clear: shippers don't want Sam and Jack to get together in the third movie; we want the confirmation that they've been together since Threads, so your argument about time doesn't hold water for me.

One of my main problems with D/V, apart from the lack of chemistry, OOC behaviour and too much focus at the cost of the team is how fast it was. She teases him and flirts with him, he's always annoyed; eventually they progress to caring about each other (not in a romantic way IMO), because Vala really wants to change and become a better person and Daniel is really the right guy to help her. And then bam! she's all in tears because she loves him and can't loose him and bam! look he loves her too. I realise it's a matter of personal opinion/taste but for me there wasn't enough foundation and time given to them to find their relationship believable.