My thoughts about Sam and Jack in the third movie (spec and spoilers)

[slurredspeech]

The premise of this thread isn't whether or not the relationship is valid, it's what people think about it being in the movie.

To be fair, whether someone considers it a valid relationship and thus one worth exploring could be (and is in a lot of cases, lest I got some posts wrong) a rationale for their feelings about it having its place in the movie. It's sometimes difficult to just go 'I think Sam and Jack are the bee's knees' without getting into the why and how behind that opinion.

*shrug* I'm never sure what's too OT, really (except redundant ship wars, but I'm of the opinion they should be OT in any adult conversation; alas) so I may well be out of line. But most times blank statements like 'I (don't) want to see the ship because it's so (evol) hawt' will be challenged, and a deeper elaboration necessary in threads like this one where both opinions are welcome and will be heard.

[Aragon101]

To be fair, whether someone considers it a valid relationship and thus one worth exploring could be (and is in a lot of cases, lest I got some posts wrong) a rationale for their feelings about it having its place in the movie. It's sometimes difficult to just go 'I think Sam and Jack are the bee's knees' without getting into the why and how behind that opinion.

*shrug* I'm never sure what's too OT, really (except redundant ship wars, but I'm of the opinion they should be OT in any adult conversation; alas) so I may well be out of line. But most times blank statements like 'I (don't) want to see the ship because it's so (evol) hawt' will be challenged, and a deeper elaboration necessary in threads like this one where both opinions are welcome and will be heard.

I agrss, it's impossible to have one without the other, the problem is the balance.

My issue with Sam/Jack is two fold, one i don't believe in the relationship as it's been shown on TV. as in the specified number of hours SG-1, SGA, and SGU have been ON TV including the movies.

Warning, this is only my opinion.

I think quite a few fans have begun to associate well written fanfic with teh show, but that's Fanon, not canon. I've read a few Sam/Jack fanfics that did work believably. But they are NOT the show. they are NOT canon and i am not going to believe a ship based off what a fan wrote no matter how good (or bad) it is.

i say this because I myself found... myself looking at specific Carter/Sheppard scenes with a finer tooth comb and seeing things that weren't there. Ohh,,, there's a deleted scene where Shep asks Carter to a beer to celebrate Ronon's "return" to which Sam and Shep have a nice little moment on the balcony which is really just friendly, but "ohh!" :

The second point is really, what does it add to the characters and movie? Truthfully i don't see it adding to either because both characters (especially Sam) have been warped to fit the ship IMO. If even S/J shippers find Sam abandoning the lines in Heroes to be dismal, what is someone who's not into this ship going to tihnk about the rest?

[Skydiver]

I fully acknowledge that the 'why' is a part of this topic.

What I don't want is for this thread to descend into the endless circular argument of 'prove to me that it exists and i'll then rebut your every point to prove to you that it doesn't'

The WHY is pertinent to why you might/might not want it in the movie, but the general 'does it even exist' veers more off topic and it's a topic that been done to death multiple times.

I know it's a very fine line and there is some crossing over, this just can't turn into yet another 'does sam and jack exist' thread.

The focus needs to be having/not having it in the movie and your rationale.

[Skydiver]

If even S/J shippers find Sam abandoning the lines in Heroes to be dismal, what is someone who's not into this ship going to tihnk about the rest?

Actually, it most often tends to be those that dont' like the pairing citing that as an example of how horrible and bad sam is rather than the shippers finding issue with it.

Some shippers do i think, but most of my observations have been that it's fodder for those that wish to bash sam and the irony of it is, if it were Jack that had rushed to the side of a fallen teammate that wasn't sam, they'd be fine with it. But because it's sam then it's bad. If it were jack rushing to someone's side it'd be held up as 'what a wonderful CO he is and isn't the team bonding fantastic'

Ultimately that scene, and any scene they put into the movie will be debated and torn apart and picked apart. those that like whatever pairing is portrayed will hold it up as a shining example, those that don't like the pairing will rip it apart and ti'll probably become a much debated 30 seconds out of a 90 minute movie and some will declare that that 30 seconds ruined the whole thing for them.

Even amongst the shippers, there are those that'll be satisfied with something covert and discreet, others will demand something more obvious and still others will be perpetually heartbroken unless there's a wedding.

And among the non-shippers, some will ignore anything covert, others will debate it endlessly and then there are the passionate ones that, even if you killed Sam off, would be unhappy that it took her so long to die

no matter what they do, someone will be ticked off.

They will see what they want to see, and interpret it how they want to interpret it and then debate it endlessly

[Petra]

I think quite a few fans have begun to associate well written fanfic with teh show, but that's Fanon, not canon. I've read a few Sam/Jack fanfics that did work believably. But they are NOT the show. they are NOT canon and i am not going to believe a ship based off what a fan wrote no matter how good (or bad) it is.

I get what you are saying, I really do, and to some extent you are right. I mean there is this ship writer who writes a series about S/J relationship during season 9&10, based on actual episodes (e.g how Sam's return to the front lines affected their relationship? What was Jack's attitude towards Cam? etc.) that I find extremely believable and since it delivers what is missing in the show it became my personal canon. It doesn't contradict anything, just adds some character development which in turn makes me enjoy the characters *on the show* more.

BUT, I would argue that associating good fanfic (done in canon) with canon doesn't really change the perception of what's shown on screen. You see, fanfic authors don't take their characterisation out of thin air, they base it on what they see in the show. And it's no secret that shippers and anti-shippers see the characters differently. For example from what I've seen many antis don't feel comfortable with what they perceive is Jack's superiority and Sam's inferiority and power issues in their relationship. Shippers otoh see them both as equals or even Sam as the more powerful one. So who's right? Both opinions are based on canon of the show, it's just that it is seen differently by different people. It doesn't mean that either of these options is fanon. So what you read in fanfics isn't based on fanon but author's interpretation of canon.

Of course it doesn't mean that you should agree with it.

The second point is really, what does it add to the characters and movie? Truthfully i don't see it adding to either because both characters (especially Sam) have been warped to fit the ship IMO. If even S/J shippers find Sam abandoning the lines in Heroes to be dismal, what is someone who's not into this ship going to tihnk about the rest?

What does it add? Well, maybe some depth? Character development?

I agree that Sam has been "warped to fit the ship" but every character on the show had the same thing done to him/her. We've already discussed it on this thread. And personally I believe that nothing in 8 years of S/J ship hurt Sam's character as much as 4 episodes of Sam/Pete.

And finally, I don't find anything wrong with Sam running to check on Jack in Heroes, and believe it or not it has nothing to do with my being a shipper. I don't find this scene particularly shippy. I just always assumed she run to him because he got shot, she had medical training and there were no other medics on the battlefield. Her previous position was immidiately filled. Nothing "dismal" about it. *shrug*

[Aragon101]

Actually, it most often tends to be those that dont' like the pairing citing that as an example of how horrible and bad sam is rather than the shippers finding issue with it.

Some shippers do i think, but most of my observations have been that it's fodder for those that wish to bash sam and the irony of it is, if it were Jack that had rushed to the side of a fallen teammate that wasn't sam, they'd be fine with it. But because it's sam then it's bad. If it were jack rushing to someone's side it'd be held up as 'what a wonderful CO he is and isn't the team bonding fantastic'

Ultimately that scene, and any scene they put into the movie will be debated and torn apart and picked apart. those that like whatever pairing is portrayed will hold it up as a shining example, those that don't like the pairing will rip it apart and ti'll probably become a much debated 30 seconds out of a 90 minute movie and some will declare that that 30 seconds ruined the whole thing for them.

Even amongst the shippers, there are those that'll be satisfied with something covert and discreet, others will demand something more obvious and still others will be perpetually heartbroken unless there's a wedding.

And among the non-shippers, some will ignore anything covert, others will debate it endlessly and then there are the passionate ones that, even if you killed Sam off, would be unhappy that it took her so long to die

no matter what they do, someone will be ticked off.

They will see what they want to see, and interpret it how they want to interpret it and then debate it endlessly

Trrue enough, i cite Heroes since it's the most widely known part. You've had your own examples such as Pete... etc etc...

Which in the end leads to my opinion that in the third movie, it's GOING to happen because we have precedent than the writers sacrifice the characters at the altar of the ship, or their own ideas. I'm ready for confirmation, i've battened down the hatches and gotten my airplane bag handy.

Does it add to the movie for me? Rather not i say.

[flynn1959]

I fully acknowledge that the 'why' is a part of this topic.

What I don't want is for this thread to descend into the endless circular argument of 'prove to me that it exists and i'll then rebut your every point to prove to you that it doesn't'

The WHY is pertinent to why you might/might not want it in the movie, but the general 'does it even exist' veers more off topic and it's a topic that been done to death multiple times.

I know it's a very fine line and there is some crossing over, this just can't turn into yet another 'does sam and jack exist' thread.

The focus needs to be having/not having it in the movie and your rationale.

The very fact that there are and have been so many threads dealing with the theme 'does Sam and Jack ship exist' proves that it is still very much in doubt. The simple fact is a relationship of a romantic/sexual nature between the characters of Sam and Jack is not cannon i.e it has never been shown on the show. That is a fact, as hard as it seems to be for some fans to accept.

How can debate about the supposed ship be off topic in a thread that asks one for thoughts about that very supposed ship and its place in the third movie? How can the focus of this thread be about having/not having something in the movie that many people, myself included, do not even believe exists in canon?

And I'm sorry but one can't rebut proof, proof is just that proof, or in other words confirmation. Another simple fact is that for all the circular arguments, all of the debates, all of the posts there has never been actual proof of a relationship between Jack and Sam. NEVER. And yet here we have yet another thread that seems to suggest that it is a canon relationship, that tells us we are off topic if we try to suggest otherwise.

A very simple way to end all of the circular arguments would be for someone, anyone, to provide absolute proof of this so called relationship - simple. And yet no one ever has.

[Aragon101]

I get what you are saying, I really do, and to some extent you are right. I mean there is this ship writer who writes a series about S/J relationship during season 9&10, based on actual episodes (e.g how Sam's return to the front lines affected their relationship? What was Jack's attitude towards Cam? etc.) that I find extremely believable and since it delivers what is missing in the show it became my personal canon. It doesn't contradict anything, just adds some character development which in turn makes me enjoy the characters *on the show* more.

BUT, I would argue that associating good fanfic (done in canon) with canon doesn't really change the perception of what's shown on screen. You see, fanfic authors don't take their characterisation out of thin air, they base it on what they see in the show. And it's no secret that shippers and anti-shippers see the characters differently. For example from what I've seen many antis don't feel comfortable with what they perceive is Jack's superiority and Sam's inferiority and power issues in their relationship. Shippers otoh see them both as equals or even Sam as the more powerful one. So who's right? Both opinions are based on canon of the show, it's just that it is seen differently by different people. It doesn't mean that either of these options is fanon. So what you read in fanfics isn't based on fanon but author's interpretation of canon.

Of course it doesn't mean that you should agree with it.



What does it add? Well, maybe some depth? Character development?

I agree that Sam has been "warped to fit the ship" but every character on the show had the same thing done to him/her. We've already discussed it on this thread. And personally I believe that nothing in 8 years of S/J ship hurt Sam's character as much as 4 episodes of Sam/Pete.

And finally, I don't find anything wrong with Sam running to check on Jack in Heroes, and believe it or not it has nothing to do with my being a shipper. I don't find this scene particularly shippy. I just always assumed she run to him because he got shot, she had medical training and there were no other medics on the battlefield. Her previous position was immidiately filled. Nothing "dismal" about it. *shrug*

Well that's just it. We didn't GET that character development in S9-10. There WAS no confirmation so at this point, S/J is still in limbo. Sure a Fanfic can fill in the details, but i can't accept it as a part of the show no matter how good it is. (and i do know there are good ones out there)

As far as Sam leaving hte lines in Heroes, i'm pretty sure she was one of the ranking officers there. She may have medical training, but but the way the scene was shot made it pretty clear to me that it wasn't out of some altruistic need to use her knowledge to save him.

In a way, i can accept Sam abandoning the post in the heat of the moment, and then later regretting it. She's still human and seeing a person you've worked with and care about getting hit is definitely going to affect you, i just didn't like the undertone of romantic feelings there. Camarareie? Sure! Sam/Jack have an awesome friendship that i adore watching. If that's all there is in the third movie, i'll put an end to SG1 in my mind with a great note, but i know that's not going to happen, TPTB WANT the ship so there's no other way around it.

I don't agree that Sam is "weaker" for those scenes, everyone's human. What i DON"T like is the way it always tends to have her run back to Jack in one way or another. can't she deal with these things like an adult on her own? Sam is not a weak character and she wouldn't submit to even Jack.

I do agree that there are many anti's that don't like Sam, i've met quite a few and rolled my eyes. But that's mixing personal opinion with character analysis. "I odn't like Sam because she would betray Jack witha dingus potato shaped Pete! She deserves to Rot in hell!" Ironically, this is what i've heard from quite a few people and i can't help but wonder where such a sentiment can grow from.

All i want is a good third SG1 movie. I KNOW Sam/Jack will happen, but i'm still hoping it'll be so subtle i'll miss it (fat chance) or that perhaps TPTB decide to leave well enough alone. But i know that's not going to happen.

[Petra]

A very simple way to end all of the circular arguments would be for someone, anyone, to provide absolute proof of this so called relationship - simple. And yet no one ever has.

Equally simple "way to end all of the circular arguments would be for someone, anyone, to provide absolute proof of" lack "of this so called relationship - simple. And yet no one ever has."

[leiasky]

Actually, it most often tends to be those that dont' like the pairing citing that as an example of how horrible and bad sam is rather than the shippers finding issue with it.

Some shippers do i think, but most of my observations have been that it's fodder for those that wish to bash sam and the irony of it is, if it were Jack that had rushed to the side of a fallen teammate that wasn't sam, they'd be fine with it. But because it's sam then it's bad. If it were jack rushing to someone's side it'd be held up as 'what a wonderful CO he is and isn't the team bonding fantastic'

Ultimately that scene, and any scene they put into the movie will be debated and torn apart and picked apart. those that like whatever pairing is portrayed will hold it up as a shining example, those that don't like the pairing will rip it apart and ti'll probably become a much debated 30 seconds out of a 90 minute movie and some will declare that that 30 seconds ruined the whole thing for them.

Even amongst the shippers, there are those that'll be satisfied with something covert and discreet, others will demand something more obvious and still others will be perpetually heartbroken unless there's a wedding.

And among the non-shippers, some will ignore anything covert, others will debate it endlessly and then there are the passionate ones that, even if you killed Sam off, would be unhappy that it took her so long to die

no matter what they do, someone will be ticked off.

They will see what they want to see, and interpret it how they want to interpret it and then debate it endlessly

Beautifully said. Absolutely right.

A circular discussion demanding proof is just that - circular. No one is going to change anyone elses mind.

There is proof - from multiple writer's - on screen - in special features. But those who don't want to see it will still deny because it doesn't fit THEIR version of canon. Meh. The writers wrote the words, directed the action. The intent is clear to me.

So - back to Sam and Jack IN THE MOVIE. . . It'll be there

[Aragon101]

Equally simple "way to end all of the circular arguments would be for someone, anyone, to provide absolute proof of" lack "of this so called relationship - simple. And yet no one ever has."

It's amazing how logic can bite it's own ass. Reminds me of Marmaduke.

The issue is that Sam/Jack is in Limbo There has been no confirmation one way or the other.

[Ashizuri]

A very simple way to end all of the circular arguments would be for someone, anyone, to provide absolute proof of this so called relationship - simple. And yet no one ever has.

As a non-shipper, I can say that no one can hand you proof of a relationship because they're not/never have officially been in one. But, and this is a really important but, TPTB have been hinting at it for years. It is canon that Sam cares about Jack. It is canon that Jack cares about Sam. It is canon that there is mutual interest on both their parts that has the potential to be something more. Denying that is as silly as denying that there is potential for Daniel/Vala. I may not like it, but I can't deny that TPTB went down that road.

I want confirmation, either yes they are in a relationship or are going to be in one/no they're not and never will be. That's the confirmation I want. And I'm willing to put money on it either (1) not being resolved, or (2) being resolved in favor of the Jack/Sam shippers.

[kusanagi]

Equally simple "way to end all of the circular arguments would be for someone, anyone, to provide absolute proof of" lack "of this so called relationship - simple. And yet no one ever has."

Exactly!!

When I'm reading this thread I feel like it's been taken over by anger!!

[flynn1959]

Equally simple "way to end all of the circular arguments would be for someone, anyone, to provide absolute proof of" lack "of this so called relationship - simple. And yet no one ever has."

Okay, how about this - Jack and Sam have never been shown to be in a relationship on the show, neither wear rings, neither of them have ever spoken about about being with the other in that way, neither of them display wedding photo's, both of them have had sexual relationships with people, none of the other characters have ever mentioned Sam and Jack being in a relationship, Sam still goes by the name of Carter, I could go on but it would be pointless. I could also do the same thing for any number of combinations of characters, say Hammond and Janet, and provide proof that they were never in a relationship but I doubt anybody could provide PROOF that they were.

[flynn1959]

Exactly!!

When I'm reading this thread I feel like it's been taken over by anger!!

I don't, where is the anger? I see people debating, which is their right. I don't think anyone is getting angry, so don't fret.