The Powers That Be (905)

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

... Much like Chaya did for her people in SGA's "Sanctuary," only the Ori'd have an added dimension of fear.

<nods> I think that as the season progresses we'll be making frequent comparitive studies between Chaya's world and Ori-dominated worlds.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Give a man a fire and he's warm the rest of the day. Set fire to him and he's warm the rest of his life.

OMG, I nearly burst an important vein laughing! Can't green you ATM, but that's gotta be one for the Prior book of parables.

[DarkQuee1]

I had problems with this ep (and what it portends for the future). The second half would have been a decent ep, but it had a total disconnect with the first half, which was a comedy version of Cor'ai. Dealing with the first half first: the character of Vala remains totally problematic for me. There's no substance there--and when they try to give us some, at the end, for me, it's not believable based on the character we've seen to that point. She remains not particularly bright (or, in the alternative, totally clueless). (To think that they would even consider putting her on an SGC team suggests a serious disconnect with reality.)

We're supposed to feel sorry for her with the whole "torturing the host" thing (emphasized by the comment in the ep that the folk who did it couldn't tell the difference). Unfortunately, there was an interesting line in the episode: according to Vala, the rebellion and torture occurred tortured *before* the Goa'uld was removed by the Tok'ra. In other words, the people weren't beating up on the innocent host, they were beating up on a Goa'uld who had committed mass murder and mass torture. Yes, true, the host goes along for the ride, but at that point, she was still Ketesh and the host was totally suppressed. I really don't have a problem with the oppressed "slaves" going after the Goa'uld.

Interestingly, once she was free of the Goa'uld, she came to this little world--and proceeded to play God again. She could have gone the Kendra route but she chose, instead, to lord it over the people, rip them off and keep them in a state of perpetual poverty. This ep left me with no sympathy whatsoever for Vala.

Which meant I simply didn't buy her "conversion" at the end into someone caring for these people endlessly. We have not been given anything to that point in her character to suggest that she would ever give that much of a damn.

And Daniel made a huge mistake in insisting she go out and tell them the truth, to prove that gods are false. With all his study of history, he still doesn't grasp certain basic facts about people and cultures? When confronted with something like this, there would really be only two possible outcomes: either the people would go the Ketau route and not believe what you're saying, or they *would* believe, get totally ticked at being misled and misused, and try to hammer their former god into the dust. Which is what happened. The odds that they would accept this with total equanimity and reason were slim to none. (Especially when you consider what Ketesh's former slaves who rebelled--obviously realizing she was a false god--did when they could.)

While the second half was better than the first, it also pointed out some problems with the over-arcing storyline and the setup. TPTB have been forced to make the Ascended look even worse than before (if that were possible)--and totally undermined their throw-off line that we were somehow being "protected" in the last eight year (yeah, we must have all missed that protection, somehow). TPTB have to try to explain why the Others don't step in and so we get this excuse about not interfering unless the Orii use their powers, which seems increasingly feeble with everything the Doci/Priors do.
Because if giving the Doci and the Priors superhuman powers--heck, some Ascended powers, really--does not qualify as the Orii using their Ascended powers to succeed and accomplish their aims, then the whole thing is a hum and the Others don't really give a damn about ever helping anyone. No matter what the Orii do, short of outright attacking the Others, would ever qualify.

Yes, the Orii are exceptionally powerful and they gave exceptional powers to their servants. Which creates a problem in storytelling. When your "villains" get that powerful, your heroes end up being able to win only by (a) luck, (b) changing the rules down the road or (c) the ever-popular and overused deus ex machina, such as finding this amazing piece of technology or finding even more-powerful allies. It certainly won't be enough to just "win the hearts" of the various peoples out there, because the people in this ep decided initially not to worship the Orii--and it did them no good. Either SG-1 finds a way to counter the actual *power* the Priors, Doci and Orii have, or they should lose in the end (and, in the real world, they would).

Another problem is that we have basically heard all of the main arguments for and against the Orii in this episode. There really isn't anything left to say. From here on in, they'll just be repeating themselves.

RCC (I think; it might have been BW) has also said that they won't play the show the way they did in seasons 7 & 8, in that there will be no more tying up or finishing any of the storylines. So, we get to look forward to the same storylines playing out until it rides off into the sunset. Exciting prospect.


Last, but not least, is the whole Landry-Lam idiocy. This would never be allowed in real life, especially if they are at odds with each other (and we're supposed to believe that Jack set this up. What? He turned the SGC in a family-counseling center?). TPTB spent years telling us that Sam and Jack could not get together because of the regs (and, no, I don't want to debate ship. That's *not* point of this comment.), but they are going to have the CMO of this base be the daughter (or any relative) of the base CO? Not in a million years. Yes, I know, there are other civilians on the base, but none of them (1) get their evals directly from the general, as the CMO does, and (2) can relieve the CO from command, as the CMO can. Which is also a reason why the CMO on a military base would *not* be a civilian, because the military would never put that kind of control over a general (among others) in the hands of a civilian doctor.
This is one of the dumbest ideas they've ever had.

[pittsburghgirl]

Darkquee1-you are so right-that post was positively brilliant. What a total waste of a good actress. CB has so much talent-and the dreck that they are giving her.

[Kas]

What a total waste of a good actress. CB has so much talent-and the dreck that they are giving her.

I, for one, can't agree at all with this. Claudia is very talented, we know that AND she is using that talent here... very, very well indeed. OK, we've seen her do the reserved, soldier angst and now we are seeing a massively different character... funny, saucy and not above using the sexuality. She has created an original character so unlike her last big gig. That is TALENT and that is using her abilities. She is enjoying the role and certainly doesn't believe it beneath her... thank goodness, as I'm really loving her work here as I did previously. It's fresh, exciting and different.

Well, I guess that this discussion is for another thread and so I'll wander off. I just wanted to put that out there as this was brought up on this thread.

[DarkQuee1]

A earlier post in this thread claimed that the Priors/Orii got the people on this planet to worship them, not by slaughtering them, but by saving lives.

Huh? I admit to getting whiplash when I read that. Was I watching a different episode? Because I could have sworn that I saw the Priors give the people they were trying to convert an unbeatable plague, that killed any number of them, in a effort to get the people to worship the Orii. And they would have let the entire population die, if there had been no capitulation. How is that *not* conversion by the sword? Did they win the "hearts and minds" of the populace? Not really. "We'll kill you all if you don't do what we want." Do they actually have to kill everyone for this to be forced conversion, rather than persuasion? Their persuasion actually failed, so they resorted to force.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how it can be even suggested that they won them over by being saviors in a crisis, since they created the crisis in the first place. They didn't win them over by "saving lives"; they "won" them over by beating them over the head with a plague until they cracked.

[Kalliope]

A earlier post in this thread claimed that the Priors/Orii got the people on this planet to worship them, not by slaughtering them, but by saving lives.

Huh? I admit to getting whiplash when I read that. Was I watching a different episode? Because I could have sworn that I saw the Priors give the people they were trying to convert an unbeatable plague, that killed any number of them, in a effort to get the people to worship the Orii. And they would have let the entire population die, if there had been no capitulation. How is that *not* conversion by the sword? Did they win the "hearts and minds" of the populace? Not really. "We'll kill you all if you don't do what we want." Do they actually have to kill everyone for this to be forced conversion, rather than persuasion? Their persuasion actually failed, so they resorted to force.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how it can be even suggested that they won them over by being saviors in a crisis, since they created the crisis in the first place. They didn't win them over by "saving lives"; they "won" them over by beating them over the head with a plague until they cracked.

Yeah, but these who died and were brought back to life by the Prior will be worshipping Ori for just it - bringing them back to life.

[TheCorpulent1]

While I'm sure those people are glad they're not dead, I think they're more likely to be worshipping out of fear because they know what the Priors are capable of now.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Did they win the "hearts and minds" of the populace? Not really. "We'll kill you all if you don't do what we want." Do they actually have to kill everyone for this to be forced conversion, rather than persuasion? Their persuasion actually failed, so they resorted to force.

Your absolutely right, and I don't think anyone was argueing that the Ori were good guys. QuiGonJohn specifically called the Ori "bad guys."

What we're talking about is how people are going to react to the reality of this sort of power. The Ori are powerful; the Ori giveth and the Ori taketh away.

He gave that sick fellow back his health before Daniel and company came to the planet. Then when the Prior encountered resistence, he "took away" the fellow's health, and, for good measure, struck a number of others with plague, no doubt knowing that the Earth visiters would use their technologies to help the people - and fail.

In this I see very little dif between the Ori and the God of the Bible book of Exodus: God strikes the Egyptians with plague, and just so that his chosen people understand his might, they get the first few plagues, too. Their water was as bloody as the Egyptian's and they got the frogs and a few other plagues.

Then, after an impressive show of force that ends with the parting of the Red Sea and drowing the chariots of Pharoh, God says, (cribbed from the Book of Exodus, Googled)

19:4. You have seen what I have done to the Egyptians, (or, in our case, to SG-1 and the Goa'uld) how I have carried you upon the wings of eagles, and have taken you to myself.

19:5. If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth(P8X-412 ) is mine.


What do you say to somebody who's hurt you like that, and hurt the non-believers even worse? I don't think "no" is an option....

Isn't that basicly what the Ori were doing with the natives of the Converted-Planet-of-the-Week?

[QuiGonJohn]

Tok'Ra Hostess great post, and interesting take on comparing the Ori to "God".

DarkQuee1, not only what Tok'Ra Hostess said, but also, I bet many of those people don't believe the Ori gave them the sickness, but rather that it just happened somehow, and the the power of the Ori, through the Prior, was able to heal them. Tell me those people would be totally against believing the Ori to be gods.

[alewis104]

In this I see very little dif between the Ori and the God of the Bible book of Exodus: God strikes the Egyptians with plague, and just so that his chosen people understand his might, they get the first few plagues, too. Their water was as bloody as the Egyptian's and they got the frogs and a few other plagues.

Then, after an impressive show of force that ends with the parting of the Red Sea and drowing the chariots of Pharoh, God says, (cribbed from the Book of Exodus, Googled)

19:4. You have seen what I have done to the Egyptians, (or, in our case, to SG-1 and the Goa'uld) how I have carried you upon the wings of eagles, and have taken you to myself.

19:5. If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth(P8X-412 ) is mine.

I agree completely, but I would not limit this to the Christian God. God-centered religions, monotheistic and polythesitic, do tend to "persuade" by intimidation. There may be the "carrot" of eternal paradise, but that carrot is fairly ephemeral without the "stick" of pain and suffering here and now -- not to mention eternal damnation -- which the omnipotent can cure by the power of miracle.

[warmbeachbrat]

Your absolutely right, and I don't think anyone was argueing that the Ori were good guys. QuiGonJohn specifically called the Ori "bad guys."

What we're talking about is how people are going to react to the reality of this sort of power. The Ori are powerful; the Ori giveth and the Ori taketh away.

He gave that sick fellow back his health before Daniel and company came to the planet. Then when the Prior encountered resistence, he "took away" the fellow's health, and, for good measure, struck a number of others with plague, no doubt knowing that the Earth visiters would use their technologies to help the people - and fail.

In this I see very little dif between the Ori and the God of the Bible book of Exodus: God strikes the Egyptians with plague, and just so that his chosen people understand his might, they get the first few plagues, too. Their water was as bloody as the Egyptian's and they got the frogs and a few other plagues.

Then, after an impressive show of force that ends with the parting of the Red Sea and drowing the chariots of Pharoh, God says, (cribbed from the Book of Exodus, Googled)

19:4. You have seen what I have done to the Egyptians, (or, in our case, to SG-1 and the Goa'uld) how I have carried you upon the wings of eagles, and have taken you to myself.

19:5. If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth(P8X-412 ) is mine.


What do you say to somebody who's hurt you like that, and hurt the non-believers even worse? I don't think "no" is an option....

Isn't that basicly what the Ori were doing with the natives of the Converted-Planet-of-the-Week?

Well, I think the situations are a bit different. The story in Exodus has to do with the chosen people being enslaved by the Egyptians and Pharoah refusing (repeatedly) to let them go. Each plague was escalated in an effort to convince Pharoah to free them, but though he would agree to release them, he would then refuse to let them go and re-enslave them. That the Hebrews suffered the plagues the same as the Egyptians was an unfortunate circumstance of their enslavement--ultimately, they did not suffer the same fate in the final plague. In that light, I don't think the situations are very analagous.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Well, I think the situations are a bit different.

Probably. I'm not saying that the Ori are an exact copy of the OT God, just that I see little difference in the tactics both used.

That the Hebrews suffered the plagues the same as the Egyptians was an unfortunate circumstance of their enslavement--ultimately, they did not suffer the same fate in the final plague. In that light, I don't think the situations are very analagous.

Welllll.... I'm not sure which plague of the ten it was, but God specifically made a distinction between the Egyptians and the Isrealites, a distinction that he could very well have made from the beginning - seems to me.

Personally, I think he let them suffer through the first three or four plagues to put the fear into his people, to soften them up for that Mount Sinai scene, when he demanded that they serve him unconditionally.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

I agree completely, but I would not limit this to the Christian God. God-centered religions, monotheistic and polythesitic, do tend to "persuade" by intimidation. There may be the "carrot" of eternal paradise, but that carrot is fairly ephemeral without the "stick" of pain and suffering here and now -- not to mention eternal damnation -- which the omnipotent can cure by the power of miracle.

<nods>I only really know the Biblical stories; I'd love to read some stories from other religions that could relate to the philosophical struggle presented by the Ori.

[1DanielForMe]

Christianity, and Islam are probably the two religions which most emphasise punishment for not worshipping a particular deity.

As far as the episode goes, I don't really have much of an opinion on it other than that Dr. Lam seems to be coming more into her own, and that Vala is actually starting to care about others besides herself.