The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[Skydiver]

i do think it COULD have gone on longer, had things been better handled.

rethink mitch for one. the 'youthful, experienced, special forces goofball' just didn't work. Pick a characterization and stick with it. If he's to be youthful then give him the role in the show that fits that. If he's to be experienced, then let him be that. They tried to make him too much too often and instead made him unsustainable.

Pick a vala and stay with her. If they liked the fiery thief, cool. KEEP HER THAT WAY. Let her be smart, let her be tricky. Let her be a force to be reckoned with. But they dumbed her down to make her better fit on daniel's arm. tehy turned her from an intelligent, street smart con artist to nothing more than a conniving seducer...ie the cliched bad girl.

right now vala acts so much the fool i simply can't buy that she was once qetesh and a real rival for baal. she plays the blond bimbo...just with dark hair

Landry....you know, he could have worked, but he's been stupided for the plot one too many times. the lam/landry angle???? hello desperate housewives. all we needed was the long lost brother and they hit so many cliches i'm surprised that they dumped the 'cam and lam were an item' angle, although that WOULD explain his posting.

all the ingredients were there to make it work. but they didn't take any chances, they didn't step out from under the umbrella of a cliche and they indulged themselves in a few too many homages.

I'm glad the writers had fun. I'm glad they enjoyed themselves. I'm glad they had a good time.

But if they'd have remembererd that their JOB was go make a show that has a wide appeal, they'd probably still have one.

[smurf]

Well then as I would need to link to actual posts on other forums you will have to take my word for it. But then again it is common knowledge.

I guess this means there is no quote?

There is no spoon.

Another problem I think they had was that they put too much on their plates all at once; they had to introduce and establish Mitchell, Landry, Lam and the Ori, as well as building Vala, a one-episode character, into a character who would have the depth necessary to survive long-term. They had too much to do and not enough time to do it so certain elements were neglected.

If, for example, they had dispensed with Mitchell and Lam and concentrated on an SG-1 consisting of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c adjusting to a new base commander and dealing a new threat in Season Nine, with some appearances by Vala at the beginning (and, if absolutely necessary, at the end) of the season before she was brought on as a regular - though perhaps not as a member of SG-1 - they would have been able to weather the changes better.

I don't think they needed to have dispensed of Cam, but they did need to bring him in correctly as part of the universe. Vala is fine to have around, but merely as a guest protagonist - she was after all only a temporary star. She shouldn't have had so much of the story revolving around her. Lam was totally unnecessary - Dr. A. N. Other would have worked just as well.
Cam never got to be involved with the Ori storyline from the outset. Cam never got involved with the team from the outset. They set him up as an insider to the Stargate program, and then did their best to write him completely outside it.

IMO he should have ended up with Vaniel in the Ori galaxy, then we would have seen both team (nearly) interaction and how he deals with some of the darker aspects of the job he has fantasised about.

And they had to pick whether he outranked, or not, Carter, because co-command is just silly.

Our definitions of incredible are very different. The response I saw here was mixed.

A poll taken on a possible third series showed that just over 25% of the respondents favoured Daniel as the star of any new spin-off.

I wouldn't trust that poll, it's very even.
It would have been interesting to have run that poll with an option of "none of the above". I think that might have been the prefered option for a fair number of people.

Sad because this season has been slightly better than ever nine. Vala and Daniel have made the show so much more interesting, Mitchell has been much better this season - the wheelchair and alcoholism were big improvments - and Teal'c has been as good as ever (as long as you ignore previous seasons where he was both stong enough to look after himself, and actually had something to do). Landry and Lam have also been wonderful additions And now with Carter being dumped on poor Atlantis given her own show, it's a real shame the show is ending. It could she will go on for years without the dead wood.

I really hope that the movies do so well that the show is renewed, Carter would be out of the way and they would all be free to move on and tell some more fantastic stories and not have to worry about Carter holding them back. Just imagine a Stargate without the gulping,swallowing, google eyes, the OTT body movements, the shippy music where tptb try to hit us over the head...look Sir luvs Sammykins, fear not, there has to be at least one god out there who wants to set things right. Sam and Jack will soon wed. just listen to the music.

Heaven! Roll on the Vaniel show and throw in the bori!!!!!! Just see the ratings soar plummet! No Carter to drag them down maintain some semblence of Grace - get it? Grace?.

Am amused.
Although I had to make a minor tweak.

Just wanted to say that JM never said that he was irritated that people liked the first 5 episodes of season 9 (and really not all that many people did, I mean there were quite a few but it was pretty evenly divided) what Joe was irritated with was that some of the people on another forum who actually liked those episodes were saying that script elves must have written them because Joe and Co. couldn't possibly have written them themselves. If I were him I would have been irritated too.

Because it bears repeating.
I wonder if the script elves wrote all of season 10 as well.

No. That's the one that a lot of people on this board seem to think we have now...Vaniel? Anyone?

If.. IF and it's a big if, we did have the Daniel and Vala show it would have been renewed, but what we did got was way too much Mitchell and a lot too much Carter...that's the show that was canned by episode 200. Don't forget MS wasn't even in two of those episodes by then.

Perhaps the title of this thread should be did Cam/Sam kill Stargate?

Which Sci Fi executive said that?

[ParadoxRealities]

If.. IF and it's a big if, we did have the Daniel and Vala show it would have been renewed

is that an opinion or a "fact"? just wondering.

but what we did got was way too much Mitchell and a lot too much Carter...that's the show that was canned by episode 200.

yeah, mitchell was center stage. just check the number of lines he had. but carter? i know "a lot too much" is subjective, but her involvement (especially in s9) went down, and quite a bit. she was locked out of the team, or rather, the now standard pairings, as they hardly ever work as a team. both Daniel and Vala (in what eps she was in in s9) beat Sam by quite a bit. i don't have the number for 10 on hand, but they tend to seem much the same.

Don't forget MS wasn't even in two of those episodes by then.

very true. but i'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Perhaps the title of this thread should be did Cam/Sam kill Stargate?

make one.

[smurf]

Hey, I know what show could have gone on for longer. The Stargate SG-1 show with like this TEAM thing traveling through this STARGATE thing. I think Carter, Daniel, Teal'c could have been on this team with a couple of new intelligently written characters. They could have gone through the stargate and did some intelligent exploring and faced some entertaining (if not intelligent) enemies. Yeah, I bet that show could have went on...maybe like eight years or so.

As said on the show; "What is this Stargate that you speak of?"
It amazes me that the unique selling point of the show - we don't use spaceships, we use a hi-tech doorway - is being almost totally ignored. Honestly, I did love it, but there isn't that much special about the show which lifts it above other Sci Fi shows (most shows have some form of well characterised team). Just the Stargate and the reasonably accurate (for TV) military element. Remove those and you get a show that gets canned after 25 episodes.

all the ingredients were there to make it work. but they didn't take any chances, they didn't step out from under the umbrella of a cliche and they indulged themselves in a few too many homages.

I'm glad the writers had fun. I'm glad they enjoyed themselves. I'm glad they had a good time.

But if they'd have remembererd that their JOB was go make a show that has a wide appeal, they'd probably still have one.

Homages. A lack of creativity by any other name...

Yes it's nice to have fun - it does make any job easier - but sometimes a job is just work which has to be done for other people.

[esoap524]

So...I've been giving this some thought because I'm off work for a few days and I have time to ponder the minutiae (and avoid housework).

I'm starting to think that no Sam for five episodes killed Stargate (or didn't help.) Yeah, I know the first few episodes of season 9 scored big but I still think that the lack of Sam really knocked the chemistry around.

I'm likening it to, of all things, Farscape (heh, go figure). Aeryn Sun is not in the first 4 episodes of season 4 and everything seemed off. There was a new cast member who was quite good, but wasn't the focus, so it's not an exact parallel. The story revolved around Aeryn's absence to some extent so it definitely doesn't go unnoticed. yet, there was something about that particular character's presence that gave heft to the proceedings. She and Sam are similar--serious and mature--and I think both lend a steadying influence to the other characters.

Without Jack it's a different show because he's the star, but his influence was already waning so there was some warning. Take out the leading lady and it's definitely not what it was a season before. Whether that's good or bad, I can't say because I didn't watch it a season before. But I do know that I like the team better with Sam than without her.

I like the Vala/Sam chemistry, and the Cam/Sam team. If you had acceptance of Cam on the part of Carter, the audience might have felt a little differently. You would still have had conflict with Vala because that's the kind of character she is. It just seemed like missing two lead characters was probably a lot. Had this been a brand new show, I don't think these two characters would have been a problem but since the producers were trying to shoehorn three new characters into a show that had been on the air for 8 years, there was a certain lack of finesse.

I still don't get the steep ratings decline for Battlestar and Atlantis in comparison to last year's ratings--can't blame Cam and Vala for that one.

[Jackie]

the lack of Sam and Jack in the first 5 eps really didn't help at all. I think many of the old time viewers decided that was enough and left the series.

Then you add in the bad writing, skiffy just wanting a record and nothing else; along with the break up of sci-fi friday, you have a recipe for disaster.

Oh, well--it was a nice 8 years!

[esoap524]

the lack of Sam and Jack in the first 5 eps really didn't help at all. I think many of the old time viewers decided that was enough and left the series.

Then you add in the bad writing, skiffy just wanting a record and nothing else; along with the break up of sci-fi friday, you have a recipe for disaster.

Oh, well--it was a nice 8 years!

what's interesting, though, is that if you look at the ratings for the first five, they're not significantly different than the first of season 8--slightly down but not as steeply as they are for season 10.

So...did people become invested in the five story arc then lost interest when it ended? I'd say that I got bored after Vala left but I'm so Claudia-biased that I'm can't say honestly that my Claudia-bias doesn't play into that. Taking that out of the mix, I can hardly remember the stories after the big Ori story in the beginning of season 9.

The break-up of sci fi Friday still doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[smurf]

I still don't get the steep ratings decline for Battlestar and Atlantis in comparison to last year's ratings--can't blame Cam and Vala for that one.

I've always suggested that the ratings decline of SGA and BSG was due to the loss of the regular watchers of SG-1 (but casual, take or leave it, watchers of SGA and BSG) deciding not to bother even switching to the Sci Fi channel. It is noticeable in S9 when all three were together and the drop was almost identical throughout the season, and also now with the SG-1/SGA combo.

BSG's current rating woes is in part the loss of the SG-1 viewers who thought "well, I'm already in front of the TV", moving it to a much tougher slot, and, as far as I can tell, the current season being a poor sci-fi, soap opera.

[Mandysg1]

I was looking back to another season of big change, Season 6 (which I really liked) They had to deal with the loss of a main character Daniel and the addition of new one, Jonas. The show also made its switch to a new network SciFi and had to deal with RDA cutting down on his schedule.

The season worked, (and this is my opinion) because they addressed the loss of Daniel, and didn't accept Jonas right off the bat. There was angst and drama to his finally being accepted to SG1 and this was after he proved himself. Sam and Teal'c were featured more heavily (yay, Teal'c actually got lines!) and at times it was just Sam, Teal'c and Jonas (with a little bit of Jack). This season did well in the ratings, garnering many 1.7's, 8's and 9's and even a 2.0. So if done right, fans can handle change, it's just how TPTB handle the change that makes a difference.

[Skydiver]

parts of bsg and atlantis' problem can be traced back to skiffy's greed.

Imagine what would happened to 'must see tv' if nbc had broke up the juggernaut of friends, frasier, er (with two other cruddier half hours tossed in the middle)

they OWNED thursday night cause they had most of the evening filled with shows people wanted to see.

but skiffy broke up that juggernaut. they stretched and pimped shows and tried to make half the number of episodes stretch twice as far.

If they really wanted to keep scifi friday alive, eureka should have been scheduled there. dresden files and bsg should be back there.

the networks are lazy. they only put new programming up when they have to, during sweeps (12 weeks of it 'counts' - nov, feb, may, which often leaves 10-12 new shows to be scattered about in sept, oct, dec, jan, mar, apr...which means LOTS of re-runs)

skiffy would have a ripe opportunity right now to have new stuff on and win fridays back. but they got greedy. like teh stupidity of dragging the end of atlantis and sg1 to april...so that they can use it to prop up a show of thier own creation.

[AGateFan]

I can only speak for myself but I admit (embarrassed as I am by it) I watched the first half of S9 with great hope. Unlike most casual viewers I knew Carter was definitely coming back and where O'Neill had gone. I assumed the show would be back on track sometime after Carter returned and that they were just treading water until then. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.

After Carter came back and the bad writing continued I started to lose hope. Right before the crp that was TFH there was prototype and that was actually a good ep and the multiuniverse thing wasn’t too bad except for the annoying "every universe cam is there" (but that can be explained away with "only the closest universes are affected" thing) and the complete and utter failure in dealing with Frasier or even Martouf in any intelligent\enteraining way. So I maintained hope and only lost it soon after the crpfest that was their midseason finally (TFH) with the absolute crpfest that was Stronghold. The singular worst Stargate episode ever IMHO, and that includes some of the crp in S7 and is far far worse then the cheesy S1 ep Emancipation which was all cheese but had some redeeming team-ly-ness (note I can’t count S10 crp or Atlantis eps in this).

After TFH and especially after Stronghold I didn’t care if I watched on Friday night or watched it on tape later. S10 I don’t care to watch it at all and in fact make a point to actively avoided it so I can maintain memory of Classic SG-1.

So I was among the numbers that watched S9 early and not S10. I think most casual viewers could have worked out that Carter was coming back as she was in the credits and that SG-1 would be reformed after her arrival (though one could have assumed it would have been her arrival that would put it back together and then were disappointed). So it wouldnt suprise me if lots of those casual fans gave Stargate the same benifit of the doubt and then fell off and varying times as they realized this was not the same great show they used to enjoy.

[RealmOfX]

what's interesting, though, is that if you look at the ratings for the first five, they're not significantly different than the first of season 8--slightly down but not as steeply as they are for season 10.

So...did people become invested in the five story arc then lost interest when it ended? I'd say that I got bored after Vala left but I'm so Claudia-biased that I'm can't say honestly that my Claudia-bias doesn't play into that. Taking that out of the mix, I can hardly remember the stories after the big Ori story in the beginning of season 9.

The break-up of sci fi Friday still doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Actually the ratings weren't bad at all for S9. What was bad was the atypical line down from 2.1 to 1.5 with only a 0.1 variance followed by the typical increase to the season finale but still with only a maximum of 0.1 variance - gone were the peaks and troughs of other years. It actually gives credence to fans giving S9 a fair go but ultimately turning away. This atypical trend probably scared the hell out of anyone analysing the trends. Follow it up with an abysmal 1.4 for a season opener and you have a show in obvious trouble.

I think a lot of people couldn't care less about Vala, the existing fans of the show gave S9 a chance and some left, some new fans came and some stayed and some left. Unfortunately more left than those that came and stayed. The S10 premiere of 1.4 says a lot, traditionally the first and last episodes of the season are the high scorers. In S10 not enough people were interested in the "new" show for whatever reasons but I think that a major contributor was changing the show poorly, Shame on you Coop!!

[Skydiver]

I was looking back to another season of big change, Season 6 (which I really liked) They had to deal with the loss of a main character Daniel and the addition of new one, Jonas. The show also made its switch to a new network SciFi and had to deal with RDA cutting down on his schedule.

The season worked, (and this is my opinion) because they addressed the loss of Daniel, and didn't accept Jonas right off the bat. There was angst and drama to his finally being accepted to SG1 and this was after he proved himself. Sam and Teal'c were featured more heavily (yay, Teal'c actually got lines!) and at times it was just Sam, Teal'c and Jonas (with a little bit of Jack). This season did well in the ratings, garnering many 1.7's, 8's and 9's and even a 2.0. So if done right, fans can handle change, it's just how TPTB handle the change that makes a difference.

yeah, and the 'right' way to handle change is to accept it and make it part of the story, not 'jack who????' and 'she who must not be mentioned'

how do fans see that??? they see it as a stuff you from the writers.

[AGateFan]

I've always suggested that the ratings decline of SGA and BSG was due to the loss of the regular watchers of SG-1 (but casual, take or leave it, watchers of SGA and BSG) deciding not to bother even switching to the Sci Fi channel. It is noticeable in S9 when all three were together and the drop was almost identical throughout the season, and also now with the SG-1/SGA combo.

BSG's current rating woes is in part the loss of the SG-1 viewers who thought "well, I'm already in front of the TV", moving it to a much tougher slot, and, as far as I can tell, the current season being a poor sci-fi, soap opera.

This is my thought exactly.
I only watched BSG because it was on after SG-1 and Atlantis and even then only because I was taping it for someone. S10 I told the people I wasnt taping SG-1 anymore and thus no BSG. I would still TRY to catch Atlantis but it doesnt always work out as I get caught up in boxing or something.

[Pitry]

I'm likening it to, of all things, Farscape (heh, go figure). Aeryn Sun is not in the first 4 episodes of season 4 and everything seemed off. There was a new cast member who was quite good, but wasn't the focus, so it's not an exact parallel. The story revolved around Aeryn's absence to some extent so it definitely doesn't go unnoticed. yet, there was something about that particular character's presence that gave heft to the proceedings. She and Sam are similar--serious and mature--and I think both lend a steadying influence to the other characters.

Point of differnece - Farscape season 4 had only one new character, and not a very central one at that. When Aeryn/ CB returned, she stayed very much the focus of the show as much as she was in seasons 2-3. SG1 season 9 introduced a number of new plotlines and characters, adn when Sam/ AT returned, she was very much sidelined.

It's a very possible possibility, however. I'm not going to quote ratigns here, tho, because much liek your point about BSG and SGA, it's hard to ifner from ratings these days what's going on with the SciFi channel.