Season 10 walks a fine line...Spoilers

[Sauron18]

ok.... i wasn't aware of any unspoken rule saying the debate's over, i was having my opion

Well, I dunno, but we had a debate like this one almost 6 months ago or some such time, and though it lasted some time we managed to resolve it, not just silence it.

[Deevil]

You can't reslove a debate that new people haven't even seen or discussed. it's okay to rehash the same territory, if you don't want to be involved, that's okay aswell... But let other people have their say.

[MagnoliaAnaglypta]

But if you DO feel, like me, that no actual religions have been dissed because the only 'baddies' among the 'gods' are those that only pretended to be Osiris/Baal/Marduk etc, then I have to ask: how would you envisage the portrayal of Allah or Yaweh in Stargate? Would you want parity (Scenario 1) an impostor Allah or an impostor Jesus or Elijah, who came along after the actual religion was formed and tried to insinuate himself with the locals by pretending to be a religious figure like Ra and co did, or would you want it to go further, (scenario 2)and have the 'actual' Mohammed or Mary or someone being a goa'uld? If you want (1), I'll accept your point as legitimate, but i'll disagree with it cos I think most religious folk would have no probs with someone pretending to be a god or prophet of their religion and then get exposed and destroyed, as happenned to the goauld. But if you're after (2), I have to say - why are you asking for major religions to receive *worse* treatment than the other religions that have already been referenced?

For me, a resounding *yes* to both or either.

Because to me, all science fiction, whether based in this century, far in the future or even in the past is just that, fiction. It's a speculative universe that does not represent our own reality, however near it might appear to be. And if TPTB wanted to explore the idea that ALL the major religious figures in human history were in fact aliens who had a profound sociological effect on human development and belief, no matter what religion was involved, I would have no problem with that at all. If I have a religious faith in the real world, a science fiction show certainly isn't going to change it by being speculative about its influences so why on earth would I need to feel threatened (and therefore offended) by it?

[Sauron18]

You can't reslove a debate that new people haven't even seen or discussed. it's okay to rehash the same territory, if you don't want to be involved, that's okay aswell... But let other people have their say.

It would be better to find the old thread and post it, if they still feel the need to speak then they would, but if one can prevent unnecessary conflict it is always worth it. But I don't know where the other thread is, it's long gone.




The fact is, Stargate doesn't bash any Beliefs, not even the Ancient Egyptian ones, since it always leaves possibilities for multiple interpretations. (AKA, the Goa'Uld Posed as already established deities)

It is the person's own interpretation of what is being shown that may lead to interpreting an insult, but Origin, for example, is really quite dissimilar to Christianity:

*Origin is a Polytheist Religion.

*Origin is a violent religion.

*Origin is based solely on worship

*The people of Origin do not believe in the Ori, they know of the Ori (Origin is not about Faith)

*Origin is not about Absolute Love and Forgiveness

The List could go on, but the point is, Origin may borrow some aesthetic similarities of Medieval Age Christianity, but when you really think about Origin's core as a religion they as different as any religion is different from one another. They just look similar, but they aren't similar.



And in the end, as said before, it's only a show, what you see is what you get, and what is being shown is not meant as an insult to anything.

I hope this can ease some people's worries.

[Madeleine]

And if TPTB wanted to explore the idea that ALL the major religious figures in human history were in fact aliens who had a profound sociological effect on human development and belief...

If I have a religious faith in the real world, a science fiction show certainly isn't going to change it by being speculative about its influences so why on earth would I need to feel threatened (and therefore offended) by it?

There would be no need to be threatened, but it's possible to be upset by something that doesn't threaten you. Just because something isn't a threat doesn't mean that you've no chance of being upset by it, or no right to find it unpleasant.

Stargate has never yet seen fit to explore the idea that any of Earth's religions were inspired by aliens. They've done a lot of examination of the nature of belief and of credulity, of fanaticism and the abuse of power to induce undeserved worship, of fundamentalism and intolerance and other themes that can intertwine with religion, but (the episode 'Seth' being an exception which doesn't negate what I am trying to say) they've always done it by way of portraying off-world sects of humanity descended from believers whose religions were infiltrated by goaulds, never by implying that the religions themselves were initiated by goaulds. Now they've invented a new religion that was imposed on humans in another galaxy, and they have masses of scope for exploration of ideas about religion.

If they were to start now to say that in the Stargate Universe the worship/veneration of Allah, Jesus, Buddha or Vishnu was inspired by a goauld (rather than [as they might have chosen to do had the goauld thing not pretty much run its course] hijacked by an opportunist goauld), all subtlety would be lost. Instead of Stargate making veiled but pertinent points about human nature and the dangers of misplaced faith, or about the misery caused by totalitarianism in religions, or about closedmindedness, it would be making points about Christianity, or Islam, or Zoroastrianism or whatever. It would be lazy and cheap. Anyone who is not an [insert name of religious group here] can come up with dozens of reasons not to be part of [that group] in RL and anyone who is religious has heard them all, we don't need TV shows to tell us that another reason for not being [...] is because it was started by baddie aliens. Where's the skill and wit in that?

The current storyline, while I don't see it as being directly inspired by my own religion at all, has clearly borrowed aspects of the less creditable side of my religion. it's uncomfortable for me, but that's a good thing - drama is often at it's best when uncomfortable, and there's nothing wrong with TV shows like Stargate shining a light onto the darker sides of human nature and human group behaviour. It makes for good visceral drama. At the same time, I can watch it on whatever level I choose; I can see it as a simple straight story that coincidentally has parallels with assorted RL events or RL behaviours; or I can see it as deliberate critical commentary on those RL events and behaviours; or I can see it as a polemic against all organised religion; or I can see it as a massive Good Versus Evil thing that, while hardly compatible with RL Truth and my own RL Faith, nevertheless as a story can nicely complement my own ideas of faith and morality, much like the Lord of the Rings.

It means I think about the religious and ethical connotations and overtones in the show. I think because I have to, the show requires it, and also because I can, the show allows it. As soon as the show starts to say that 'In the Stargate Universe, the actual RL major religion of ____ was started by evil aliens' I no longer need to think about what the show is trying to say about religion, and I pretty much run out of scope to speculate. It'd be boring.

It wouldn't threaten my faith in Christ if christianity were treated so. It certainly wouldn't threaten my faith in Christ if Hare Krishna were treated so, but I would still balk at such an event. To suddenly introduce all that as an aspect of Stargate would feel like controversy for the sake of controversy, and would take all the subtlety of the metaphor away from Stargate. I'd be upset. Not threatened, just bored and patronised.

[MagnoliaAnaglypta]

If they were to start now to say that in the Stargate Universe the worship/veneration of Allah, Jesus, Buddha or Vishnu was inspired by a goauld (rather than [as they might have chosen to do had the goauld thing not pretty much run its course] hijacked by an opportunist goauld), all subtlety would be lost. Instead of Stargate making veiled but pertinent points about human nature and the dangers of misplaced faith, or about the misery caused by totalitarianism in religions, or about closedmindedness, it would be making points about Christianity, or Islam, or Zoroastrianism or whatever. It would be lazy and cheap. Anyone who is not an [insert name of religious group here] can come up with dozens of reasons not to be part of [that group] in RL and anyone who is religious has heard them all, we don't need TV shows to tell us that another reason for not being [...] is because it was started by baddie aliens. Where's the skill and wit in that?

Well, that's put me in my place, hasn't it. Since I am now apparently supporting the idea of lazy, cheap writing with no skill and wit, I will bow out now and not bother to say any more.

And I don't believe I mentioned the phrase 'baddie aliens' in my post.

[Madeleine]

Well, that's put me in my place, hasn't it. Since I am now apparently supporting the idea of lazy, cheap writing with no skill and wit, I will bow out now and not bother to say any more.

And I don't believe I mentioned the phrase 'baddie aliens' in my post.

Apologies. I should have said 'lazy and cheap IMO'. (Too much time spent lately in threads where the 'IMO' is taken for granted ). But as for 'no skill and wit - I asked... and if you see openings for any, you get to reply and say so. Do feel free to say how you think it could be done and made interesting. I do think highly of you, but I know that you know what it's like to see Stargate become less compelling for you, and while it hasn't got to that for me, I'm quite resistant to stuff that I think would do that.

You seemed to be saying that you wouldn't have a problem with the idea of religions being influenced by aliens on philosophical grounds. I thought I was expanding the debate to artistic grounds, I didn't realise that that's something you actually would like to see. But what I said still applies (with 'I feel's and 'IMO's) - I don't think it could be done well, even if it were done without offending.

And no, you didn't mention 'baddie aliens', but I was / had been talking about the goa'uld, and I feel that that's an accurate term (if not the most erudite or poetic )

[kymeric]

Ok...I'm probably setting myself up for alot of disagreement but...

For the past 10 years SG-1 has done an amazing job of having stories based around many ancient faiths, and mythologys with the acception of two major ones: Christianity and Islam.

Now...am I the only one who gets the feeling that this line is about to be crossed? There are many elements in season 9 which communicates this to me some are:

1.

Spoiler:

Vala's baby being born not from a virgin but with out a father

2. The very intorduction of Sangraal or "Holy Grail" is a direct element of Christianity
3. The way assention is discribed and showed leads me to believe that it is not to long before they say or cite Jesus is being assended. (By the way...I do think it would be a very cool thing if the Ancients did start helpping out and Jesus was on the front line against the Ori.

I'm not saying this "line" is going to be crossed but I have a feeling it will be danced around on an extream level.

I would like to see Jesus as a Klingon. KA PLAH!!!!

[SueS]

Stargate has never yet seen fit to explore the idea that any of Earth's religions were inspired by aliens.

Actually, they have ...

Maternal Instinct

DANIEL: Jack, he's speaking in the Zen codes. Whatever theology he follows may be an original basis for Buddhism on Earth.

O'NEILL: Well that's very nice. I'll be sure to call the Dalai Lama when we get home. But for now, how about why we came here.


It seems rather clear to me, that Daniel is suggesting that Buddhism had an alien origin. Now, as far as I can tell, this is the only time it has been suggested that an established religion (Buddhism) was inspired by alien.



SueS

[Sauron18]

Actually, they have ...

Maternal Instinct

DANIEL: Jack, he's speaking in the Zen codes. Whatever theology he follows may be an original basis for Buddhism on Earth.

O'NEILL: Well that's very nice. I'll be sure to call the Dalai Lama when we get home. But for now, how about why we came here.


It seems rather clear to me, that Daniel is suggesting that Buddhism had an alien origin. Now, as far as I can tell, this is the only time it has been suggested that an established religion (Buddhism) was inspired by alien.



SueS

Well, Siddhartha was one who learned from many people and eventually from himself to create his own theology, if one of those people happened to be an Alien, who is no different to a wise human, it wouldn't seriousley affect it....

[viper83]

Well, Siddhartha was one who learned from many people and eventually from himself to create his own theology, if one of those people happened to be an Alien, who is no different to a wise human, it wouldn't seriousley affect it....

First of all Bhuddism is a spinoff of Hinduism. Bhuddist believe siddartha was a messenger of god. Siddaratha didn't create his theology but he people who followed his beliefs did. He didn't say that he he is God and people should follow him . He said that all avenues or fork in road lead to the supreme being. Hinduism is basically the same as Bhuddism but with may caviates such as moksha and maya. Enligthenment has similar and dismiliar mean in both these religions. Moksha and Nirvana are similiar as they mean free from phsycial form.Where on exist as soul or pure energry as you will. Maya is a concept that may exist in Bhuddism but it definitley exist in Hinduism mean that one is tied to the limitiation of our understanding of the universe the only way to bypass this one must achieve moksha or nirvana.

Please refrain from commenting when you know nothing of others religion.

[tommiekins]

Stargate has varied in its explanations of whether it considers that the religions were already in existance when the Goa'uld/Asgard took the roles of the deities or whether for example the Goa'uld were actually called Ra, Hathor, apophis e.t.c. and insighted the religions on the ancient peoples. Its probably going to be one of those things that we're never really going to find out. But the idea of the ancient cultures gods actually being extraterrestrials has been around longer than stargate has and so its a fictional show based on ideas already estabilished within society. Its also built up a very strong plot base on mythologies and so whether it goes into more 'controversial' issues it is likely that it will explain it well and in a way that isn't going to be bashing religion and so won't offend a lot of people.