S10: Critique & Contemplation

[AGateFan]

The O'neill \ Carter "shower" scene took place in ep 200, yes? That was a joke episode so I wouldnt consider anything in it as cannon so it wouldnt bother me. The Daniel \ Vala thing happend (happens, is happening) in what are supposed to be serious cannoical episodes so they annoy me.

The best thing about the O'Neill \ Carter ship is how subtle it was, so that people (like me) could simply ignore it. Stargate was never EVER (as much as some people would have liked it to be) about ship. This is STARGATE not FARSCAPE. Farscape was about ship (the non flying kind) that was one of the primary story lines. That is one of the reasons (IMHO and not that of most farscape fans) that it was not as good as Stargate. However, I never asked farscape to change, that was how the show was, I accepted it and watched it for what it was. Why must stargate be turned into farscape, not because it has its actors but because it went from a team based action adventure to a shipped based story of a couple of characters. Stargate was not Jack O'Neill story or Sam Carters or Daniel Jacksons (seriously it wasnt) or Teal'cs. It was about SG-1. But now they tried to make Cam Mitchells story of discovery but that failed and now its the Vala\Daniel love-save the child story. You know CB is actually capable of acting as something other then the "leading" mans girlfriend. Bleh.

[Skydiver]

what i enjoyed about the earlier seasons. Yes, there was a sam/jack undercurrent. written or actors' chemistry, you decide. there was also jack/daniel, jack/teal'c, sam/daniel, sam/teal'c, jack/janet, daniel/janet, janet/sam

and i'm not talking sexual. I'm talking simple relationships. friendship, co-worker, you choose

the show used to have all this. there were elements in every episode that appealed to more than one segment of the fandom. hammond had a moment with jack after daniel died the first time. sam and teal'c were there for each other after daniel died in meridian. teal'c had this moment of respect after he and jack killed simmons

there were countless moments between a variety of the characters

we USED to get this.

and we get fragments of it here and there. Most notibly in the two s10 eps thus far where MS is gone, so Vaniel isn't possible so Vala just has to interact with others. and sam and vala have a few moments in landry's office. teal'c and vala have a moment off world. cam is scarred for life by landry's bird calls

and we have little character bits. and we only seem to really get these when the writers are forced to abandon the wonder that is vaniel and actually explore something else for a change.

i miss the 'good old days' when the show was more than a one trick pony

[Hubble]

have a sort of friendship. and one forged in a lot of life and death situations.

so, again ignoring the shippy angle, i see invisijack as more of a joke. he was in the locker room while she was showering. he didn't jump in the shower with her. he didn't directly physically 'threaten' her.

I agree completely. When Sam asked if he was still there, Jack answered. So she knew he was there and not to come out of the shower. I saw it as Jack teasing her. (Not much different than him teasing her in Broca Divide when he made the comment about those sweet tank tops and her lack of a scar.) If he hadn't answered, and Sam had come out of the shower with Jack watching her and we'd heard him laugh after she left the room, that *would* be creepy.

I thought all of InvisiJack was hilarious.

[grasshopper64]

I do think this was the plan and I think it worked as well as it could work. I doubt that many of the Daniel fans would be as big a Vala fans if it didnt mean more Daniel. Vala as written just doesnt fit into the SG-1 universe and I think that a majority of the fans of the stories of the show and the team spirit of the show should see that. But if you are only watching the show to see a pretty actor or two then it wont make one lick of difference to you if the stories make sense or not.

I just wonder how many Daniel fans would like Vala so much if say they had Mitchell or even Teal'c paired with Vala all the time and not Daniel, and Daniel's role was reduced to that of say Teal'cs/Mitchells this season.

As someone who is a fan of earlier Daniel, of the Daniel before Vala came along, and doesn't like Daniel with Vala, S10 hasn't been much fun to watch to say the least. I know that people have said Vala is only half of Vaniel and needs to interact with the others, that's true, but on the flip side of the coin, I want to see Daniel interacting with Sam, Teal'c and Mitchell.
It's been like he can barely go to the bathroom without Vala
Daniel/Sam/Teal'c have been together for 10 years now, watching S10 you'd think they barely knew each other at times.........

TPTB may have thought they've got Vala a lot more fans by pairing Daniel up with her but they've also annoyed a lot of people and many more have just switched off as has been said.

[the dancer of spaz]

what i enjoyed about the earlier seasons. Yes, there was a sam/jack undercurrent. written or actors' chemistry, you decide. there was also jack/daniel, jack/teal'c, sam/daniel, sam/teal'c, jack/janet, daniel/janet, janet/sam

and i'm not talking sexual. I'm talking simple relationships. friendship, co-worker, you choose

the show used to have all this. there were elements in every episode that appealed to more than one segment of the fandom. hammond had a moment with jack after daniel died the first time. sam and teal'c were there for each other after daniel died in meridian. teal'c had this moment of respect after he and jack killed simmons

there were countless moments between a variety of the characters

we USED to get this.

and we get fragments of it here and there. Most notibly in the two s10 eps thus far where MS is gone, so Vaniel isn't possible so Vala just has to interact with others. and sam and vala have a few moments in landry's office. teal'c and vala have a moment off world. cam is scarred for life by landry's bird calls

and we have little character bits. and we only seem to really get these when the writers are forced to abandon the wonder that is vaniel and actually explore something else for a change.

i miss the 'good old days' when the show was more than a one trick pony

Absolutely. There's no variety. There's no mixture of relationships that can whet the appetite of a large portion of fans.

The same can be said for Atlantis. As much as I love David Hewlett, Joe Flanigan and the characters they play, in the relationship department, Atlantis only consistently caters to one group of people, and that's the McKay/Sheppard fans. That grates my nerves and irritates me to no end.

When I see it happening to both shows, it just makes it all the more ridiculous. It's like they're doing what's fun and what comes naturally to them, soaking in all the positive vibes from the portion of fandom they're appeasing, yet they continue to scratch their heads and wonder why the franchise no longer has the broad appeal it once did.

[Jackie]

I just wonder how many Daniel fans would like Vala so much if say they had Mitchell or even Teal'c paired with Vala all the time and not Daniel, and Daniel's role was reduced to that of say Teal'cs/Mitchells this season.

As someone who is a fan of earlier Daniel, of the Daniel before Vala came along, and doesn't like Daniel with Vala, S10 hasn't been much fun to watch to say the least. I know that people have said Vala is only half of Vaniel and needs to interact with the others, that's true, but on the flip side of the coin, I want to see Daniel interacting with Sam, Teal'c and Mitchell.
It's been like he can barely go to the bathroom without Vala
Daniel/Sam/Teal'c have been together for 10 years now, watching S10 you'd think they barely knew each other at times.........

TPTB may have thought they've got Vala a lot more fans by pairing Daniel up with her but they've also annoyed a lot of people and many more have just switched off as has been said.

IMO even pairing Vala with Mitchell or Teal'c it would still do no good because Vala would still be a "half" if paired constantly with one other person. It would probably be more tolerable because Vala brings out the worst in Daniel which just upsets many fans who are used to seeing a "different Daniel".

I can understand that TPTB must have thought that if they paired her up with Daniel that it would do two things. Give Vala credit(lazy writing--not bothering to establish credit for Vala) and bring in the audience. They forgot to factor in just how turned off people would be by the change in Daniel's behavior.

Most of season 9 and 10 has been on Daniel solely. The writers ignored the past cannon and the established relationships and characters. None of big three chacaters are in character. Daniel is more bullish, Sam is just standing in the background smiling--she might as be a wall flower and Teal'c says even less and really has no cursade left. You would figure Teal'c would be EXTREMLY pissed off if the Ori were to start forced worship after everything he went through to free his people from Anubis, Apothis and the others.

IMO one of the main problems with the show is how out of character Sam, Daniel and Teal'c are. They don't interact with one another like they used too and Mitchell is a useless character as he stands right now.

In a fan fic I am writing now, I am taking a different approach to Vala and Mitchell. I'm keeping Vala under Ori control. Making it so she never managed to break free of the Ori and join SG-1. She is far more fun to write as a spy in the Ori legion than as Daniel's sidekick. I find her childishness works really well when covering up her tracks for getting info. to Earth. I can establish her credibility and make Adria a real b*tch. Keeping Vala with the Ori also makes it possible to give the Bori a little lift. It makes for great tension and keeps Vala more true to her character.

The show would not do that because it would take away Vaniel and keep Vala/Daniel seperated. (Which is actually good because it gives more realistic tension when I do have scenes with Vala/Daniel) And makes Vala work for her creditability. It also develops the Ori in a far better way then having Priors come and preach to us. It gives more insight into the thinking patterns of the bad guys. Most of which I find myself establishing because the Ori are NOT an established bad guy.

Cooper and Wright have actually done a rather poor job at establishing the Ori. That is why it's so difficult to write for them and they are sooo boring. They have no real back story and the best Ori bad guy they have is Adria--who is a preprogrammed waste of a bad guy if kept on the same path. Adria has to start being more concerned for Adria then the Ori. She has to start to breakfree of them and start getting more things for herself. She needs to be less "have faith in the Ori and they will ascend you" to more statements like, "I am Jesus to you and you will do as I say. You will do.....for me."

Mitchell I'm bringing in the way he should have been--as another memember of another team who is now assigned under SG-1 and under Sam's command. I am promoting Sam to full colonel which would make more sense if she was head of research and devlopment as the show once stated episodes ago.

I realize I have more liberations when writing my own story but I also realize the biggest mistake they made was getting Vala into the SGC. She does not fit in the SGC but fits rather well in the lion's den. They should have kept Vala stuck in Ori control.

[ReganX]

With Vaniel--there is no reg to beef up tension

If they're both on SG-1, there is.

[ReganX]

IMO even pairing Vala with Mitchell or Teal'c it would still do no good because Vala would still be a "half" if paired constantly with one other person. It would probably be more tolerable because Vala brings out the worst in Daniel which just upsets many fans who are used to seeing a "different Daniel".

Very true. If Vala is to have any hope of real character growth, she needs to be Vala, not half of Vala/________.

In a fan fic I am writing now, I am taking a different approach to Vala and Mitchell. I'm keeping Vala under Ori control. Making it so she never managed to break free of the Ori and join SG-1. She is far more fun to write as a spy in the Ori legion than as Daniel's sidekick. I find her childishness works really well when covering up her tracks for getting info. to Earth. I can establish her credibility and make Adria a real b*tch. Keeping Vala with the Ori also makes it possible to give the Bori a little lift. It makes for great tension and keeps Vala more true to her character.

Could you PM me the link when you post it? The story sounds really interesting.

[JessM]

Happy New Year all Ooh I got a bit of catching up to do here....

I didn't feel like clicking on all of them, but might you be referring to the

Spoiler:

"dragon/roc/whatsit?"

Yep, that is the one - well, ONE of them anyway... the one that had me shaking my head was the

Spoiler:

Vaniel as 'The Madonna' pose

[JessM]

That sounds strangely familiar...

Ah, good to know I'm not the only one with a weird feeling of deja vu there...

Hmm Lost City Redux?

[JessM]

why come up with something new, lets just keep retreading the past

and let me guess

quest 2 spoilers

Spoiler:

only vala will be able to understand daniel, so she'll attach herself closer to him to stay with him as he goes all ancient while sam worries in the corner and cam and teal'c search for the cure for daniel

Sadly I think you may be right on the mark here.

Oh well, just another reason to find something else to do that Friday night in April.

[JessM]

i have the same opinion.

vala - in fitting in with the boys' idea that unless a woman is half a pair, she's useless - was paired with daniel (couldn't pair her with ben, that would be just too blatant of a farscape ripoff) because -to MANY daniel fans, what counts is screen time. Doesn't have to be 'good' screen time, because to many folks, any screen time for daniel is good.

so if vala = more daniel, then vala is a good thing. I believe that pairing the two was a deliberate manipulation by TPTB to get some 'oh, more, more more please' letters from some fans.

and there's been the bonus that the two actors enjoy working with each other. the downside is, at least from the pov of many other viewers, that Vaniel isn't as appealing to the general fen as it is to a group of it.

It would frankly be the same thing if, you take all the vaniel scenes, and turn them into sam/jack. some fans would love the obsessive focus on their favored pair, while others would be cringing and ticked off and bored because of it.

I thik it does boil down to, it's not as much WHO thier is this obsessive focus on, but that there simply IS an obsessive focus.

The fandom as a whole is made up of folks that like varying aspects of the show. And if an episode is to have a wide appeal, there needs to be a lot of stuff in there for as many people as possible. give us some sam/cam, sam/teal'c, teal'c/cam, sam/daniel, teal'c/vala, sam/vala,etc. moments

but they seem incapable of doing that. If you - the general you - dont like vaniel, there's not much else in the show. We have these new characters, meant to interject some new blood into it...but that new blood is stymied by it being confined to only one aspect, Vaniel and tons of it.

With this obsesive focus on only one aspect, the show has lost the broad appeal it used to have. And while Vaniel fans may certainly be a vocal little bunch...they don't have enough ratings boxes amongst them to make a difference.

wow, wish I had something I could add to this... but this is really all I can say:

Summed it up perfectly

[JessM]

The O'neill \ Carter "shower" scene took place in ep 200, yes? That was a joke episode so I wouldnt consider anything in it as cannon so it wouldnt bother me. The Daniel \ Vala thing happend (happens, is happening) in what are supposed to be serious cannoical episodes so they annoy me.

The best thing about the O'Neill \ Carter ship is how subtle it was, so that people (like me) could simply ignore it. Stargate was never EVER (as much as some people would have liked it to be) about ship. This is STARGATE not FARSCAPE. Farscape was about ship (the non flying kind) that was one of the primary story lines. That is one of the reasons (IMHO and not that of most farscape fans) that it was not as good as Stargate. However, I never asked farscape to change, that was how the show was, I accepted it and watched it for what it was. Why must stargate be turned into farscape, not because it has its actors but because it went from a team based action adventure to a shipped based story of a couple of characters. Stargate was not Jack O'Neill story or Sam Carters or Daniel Jacksons (seriously it wasnt) or Teal'cs. It was about SG-1. But now they tried to make Cam Mitchells story of discovery but that failed and now its the Vala\Daniel love-save the child story. You know CB is actually capable of acting as something other then the "leading" mans girlfriend. Bleh.

Totally agree. I'm not a S/J shipper but I was way more tolerant of s/j ship because, as Jackie said, it's on a more mature level and because it was pretty subtle (IMHO anyway). I just see Vaniel as so BLATANT - as just trying to shove it down our throats and tell us to accept it.

I'm pretty much the same way. Whether or not there were shippy subtexts, the show was always, first and foremost, a TEAM show. We had nice moments of the team interacting with each other on a more or less equal basis. Now it seems to be all Vaniel, and maybe a little Sam and Cam interaction in between (oh yeah and maybe Cam and Teal'c). I agree with those who've said that Cam seems to be more relegated to the background with Vaniel now in the spotlight.

[JessM]

I just wonder how many Daniel fans would like Vala so much if say they had Mitchell or even Teal'c paired with Vala all the time and not Daniel, and Daniel's role was reduced to that of say Teal'cs/Mitchells this season.

As someone who is a fan of earlier Daniel, of the Daniel before Vala came along, and doesn't like Daniel with Vala, S10 hasn't been much fun to watch to say the least. I know that people have said Vala is only half of Vaniel and needs to interact with the others, that's true, but on the flip side of the coin, I want to see Daniel interacting with Sam, Teal'c and Mitchell.
It's been like he can barely go to the bathroom without Vala

Oh, dear... that's presenting an interesting image to me... well, "interesting" meaning scary

Daniel/Sam/Teal'c have been together for 10 years now, watching S10 you'd think they barely knew each other at times.........

TPTB may have thought they've got Vala a lot more fans by pairing Daniel up with her but they've also annoyed a lot of people and many more have just switched off as has been said.

Amen. I think it's a shame how they're working to hard to keep The Big 3 apart from each other, all in the name of All Vaniel, All the Time.

[jckfan55]

I agree completely. When Sam asked if he was still there, Jack answered. So she knew he was there and not to come out of the shower. I saw it as Jack teasing her. (Not much different than him teasing her in Broca Divide when he made the comment about those sweet tank tops and her lack of a scar.) If he hadn't answered, and Sam had come out of the shower with Jack watching her and we'd heard him laugh after she left the room, that *would* be creepy.

I thought all of InvisiJack was hilarious.

I agree. given the overall silliness of that episode I didn't really have a problem with it, for the reason you mention. He answered her & wasn't in fact being a peeping tom.