S10: Critique & Contemplation

[slurredspeech]

I think, had they been allowed to change the name, people would feel differently. Because then it wouldn't be 6 - 8 years of history that coop and his buddies described as 'baggage' to be dealt with, ignored and rewritten. It would have been all new

and, for many of us, we wouldn't have watched a show we enjoyed being (the b word the filters won't allow through)-ized into a parody of itself.

IMHO, once they knew they weren't going to be allowed to make their own new show they should have respected the history and kept making Stargate, not Vaniel and their backup singers. The feeling i got from coop & co was 'ok, fine, they won't let us rename it but we'll show them, we'll keep doing things our way and everyone will see in the end that we were right' petulance.

The network made them hire a new male lead, so they did. but did they give him a story or reason to be there? Nah, they cobbled together some Marty Stu version and coop went onto his true 'love' Daniel Jackson and his girl friend.

Vala, who had wonderful potential, was often reduced to a running gag, sex object or simple butt of jokes. Daniel was morphed into this 'oh, so you think i'm gay? well I'll show YOU' hyper macho and often insensitive jerk. Teal'c was reduced to wordless muscle to be taken out and tortured once a season or so. Sam was shoved into the corner with her laptop as often as they could do it (cause coop couldn't get his way and get rid of the character, since he 'didn't know what to do with her' after jack was gone and he couldn't ship her) and Cameron was used as an intergalactic punching bag.

Ba'al, an intriguing villain was turned into a joke with multiple clones (because coop has taken waaayyy too seriously the 'no one dies in scifi' line).

The latter two seasons were just a mess. The writers didn't seem to know from week to week what they were doing, so the characters were written all over the place. they were twisted and morphed to fit stories cobbled together, rather than stories being written to fit the characters.

In two years, or really one to some because many say that s9 was so bad they gave up on s10, coop and his misguided estimate of his own talents and greatness, massacred a show that had been doing pretty well. I'd have respected him had he said 'well, you won't let me make stargate command, so I'll go elsewhere and make my idea'

instead he took the easy way out, playing the bait and switch and tried to pull a bit of smoke and mirrors, telling the viewers to ignore what they were seeing and instead see what he was saying.

And if we - the viewers and fans - expressed anything but unbridled joy and wonderment at their work, were were mocked, belittled and made fun of. fun.

I applaud this post.

[leiasky]

Spoiler:

I think, had they been allowed to change the name, people would feel differently. Because then it wouldn't be 6 - 8 years of history that coop and his buddies described as 'baggage' to be dealt with, ignored and rewritten. It would have been all new

and, for many of us, we wouldn't have watched a show we enjoyed being (the b word the filters won't allow through)-ized into a parody of itself.

IMHO, once they knew they weren't going to be allowed to make their own new show they should have respected the history and kept making Stargate, not Vaniel and their backup singers. The feeling i got from coop & co was 'ok, fine, they won't let us rename it but we'll show them, we'll keep doing things our way and everyone will see in the end that we were right' petulance.

The network made them hire a new male lead, so they did. but did they give him a story or reason to be there? Nah, they cobbled together some Marty Stu version and coop went onto his true 'love' Daniel Jackson and his girl friend.

Vala, who had wonderful potential, was often reduced to a running gag, sex object or simple butt of jokes. Daniel was morphed into this 'oh, so you think i'm gay? well I'll show YOU' hyper macho and often insensitive jerk. Teal'c was reduced to wordless muscle to be taken out and tortured once a season or so. Sam was shoved into the corner with her laptop as often as they could do it (cause coop couldn't get his way and get rid of the character, since he 'didn't know what to do with her' after jack was gone and he couldn't ship her) and Cameron was used as an intergalactic punching bag.

Ba'al, an intriguing villain was turned into a joke with multiple clones (because coop has taken waaayyy too seriously the 'no one dies in scifi' line).

The latter two seasons were just a mess. The writers didn't seem to know from week to week what they were doing, so the characters were written all over the place. they were twisted and morphed to fit stories cobbled together, rather than stories being written to fit the characters.

In two years, or really one to some because many say that s9 was so bad they gave up on s10, coop and his misguided estimate of his own talents and greatness, massacred a show that had been doing pretty well. I'd have respected him had he said 'well, you won't let me make stargate command, so I'll go elsewhere and make my idea'

instead he took the easy way out, playing the bait and switch and tried to pull a bit of smoke and mirrors, telling the viewers to ignore what they were seeing and instead see what he was saying.

And if we - the viewers and fans - expressed anything but unbridled joy and wonderment at their work, were were mocked, belittled and made fun of. fun.

In spoilers only for space.

Well said.

They admitted they didn't know what to do with Sam - AT was the last one to be contracted for season 10, after all, and it was painfully obvious.

[Ashizuri]

faith=power is common in the USA...we have the "ascended one" who has come to improve our lives and he gets very angry at the "unbeleivers" who dare to question him..... I had no problem seeing it at the time and find it very apt today. SF as political commentary....

Political power from faith, yes, I would have bought that. But faith being converted into the power to bring people back from the dead? No, not so much. Had it had an underlying scientific explanation (as I was watching a sci-fi show) I might have been Ok with it.

It was particularly rediculous to me as I come from a family that is predominantly southern baptist and have been witness to real "revival sermons," which I pictured every single time a Prior was on screen after the "Vala rises from the dead" bit.

The latter two seasons were just a mess. The writers didn't seem to know from week to week what they were doing, so the characters were written all over the place. they were twisted and morphed to fit stories cobbled together, rather than stories being written to fit the characters.

<snip>

instead he took the easy way out, playing the bait and switch and tried to pull a bit of smoke and mirrors, telling the viewers to ignore what they were seeing and instead see what he was saying.

And if we - the viewers and fans - expressed anything but unbridled joy and wonderment at their work, were were mocked, belittled and made fun of. fun.

This very much reminds me of the drama going on in the Torchwood fandom right now, in the sense that if you didn't like the new series (which was meant to be a completely different show that RTD couldn't get funding for), and which was, for a lot of people, a completely different show with a completely different feel than the previous seasons, you are clearly a butthurt fangirl who has no real appriciation of science fiction.

I wonder if Coop and RTD are friends, seeing as they seem to have the same MO?

[Skydiver]

i honestly think fandoms suffer when the writers/producers etc interact with fans.

a good chunk of the problems with s9 and 10 came, not just from teh show, but people would express their opinions, then be called on the carpet for them by Coop, JM and even MS in one interview. People that didn't like the changes 'had issues' were 'stupid not to enjoy it' etc.

i understand and empathize with the 'i'm making what i'm paid to make and that's not what you personally think i should make' attitude. Seriously, there's nothing coop or RTD can do that'll keep everyone happy.

that said, when you effectively get told to go jump off a bridge because you don't like what they're doing...sucks the fun right out of it.

you would think that professionals would know that not everyone will love their stuff and not take it personally when we don't

[Rac80]

It was obvious to me as well, that they didn't quite know what to do with Sam, even season 4 of SGA didn't use her to her full potential. Maybe they should have hired Kathryn Powers back (writer who was excellent at writing Sam) get someone who liked sam writing for her.
I still find it quite amusing that I didn't watch the same show as everyone else here did, but then I hated season 5 of SGA and others loved it. Different strokes and all that.

[Rac80]

i honestly think fandoms suffer when the writers/producers etc interact with fans.

a good chunk of the problems with s9 and 10 came, not just from teh show, but people would express their opinions, then be called on the carpet for them by Coop, JM and even MS in one interview. People that didn't like the changes 'had issues' were 'stupid not to enjoy it' etc.

i understand and empathize with the 'i'm making what i'm paid to make and that's not what you personally think i should make' attitude. Seriously, there's nothing coop or RTD can do that'll keep everyone happy.

that said, when you effectively get told to go jump off a bridge because you don't like what they're doing...sucks the fun right out of it.

you would think that professionals would know that not everyone will love their stuff and not take it personally when we don't

<snip>

I must agree that both TPTB and the fans are rather thin-skinned at times. (I will admit I can be that way as well.) People take it too personally when a producer/writer/or actor like what they are doing that the fan dislikes. (MS I know expressed enjoyment of the changes of seasons 9 & 10) then again those in show business need to grow a thicker skin too... not everyone will agree with every choice you make......

[Ashizuri]

i honestly think fandoms suffer when the writers/producers etc interact with fans.

a good chunk of the problems with s9 and 10 came, not just from teh show, but people would express their opinions, then be called on the carpet for them by Coop, JM and even MS in one interview. People that didn't like the changes 'had issues' were 'stupid not to enjoy it' etc.

i understand and empathize with the 'i'm making what i'm paid to make and that's not what you personally think i should make' attitude. Seriously, there's nothing coop or RTD can do that'll keep everyone happy.

that said, when you effectively get told to go jump off a bridge because you don't like what they're doing...sucks the fun right out of it.

you would think that professionals would know that not everyone will love their stuff and not take it personally when we don't

Oh, I agree so much.

I understand that shows change at the writer's/creator's perogative and that's fine, I'll deal, but being told that I'm "wrong" or "stupid" or "not understanding their creative genius" if I don't enjoy the changes really chaps my hide.

[jckfan55]

yeah, the latter seasons the humor was forced, at least to me.


....but that's the kind of humor coop and the guys gravitated towards. where one character laughs at the misfortune of others rather than at the situation.

early seasons there was a kinder spirited irreverance about the situations they were in. Seriously, when you listen to anubis go off on a tangent who isn't going to say 'please, who talks like that?' cause that's how he was talking, in a silly OTT manner. Jack often said what we were thinking.

the early seasons of sg-1 were like Indiana Jones or Star Wars...characters commenting on the ridiculousness of their situation with a quip. whereas seasons 9 and 10 were like American Pie...crudity and sex and yuks tossed out to appeal to the lowest common denominator, often with one or more characters being embarrassed to make the others laugh

I was the butt of too many jokes in my life to enjoy watching anyone, even fictitious characters, being humiliated by the 'school bullies' to elicit a laugh

there was no kindness in seasons 9 and 10.

Yes, the humor used to come from the situation and the characters' personalities. Jack sniped at the goa'uld as a form of bravado. There were other times that you had to chuckle to yourself because it was Sam being Sam or a look from Teal'c or something.

Then they tried to give Jackson a lot of smart remarks & make Mitchell devil may care--which imho only came off as immaturity. There was a real loss of the old team feeling. A basketball scene or a reference to movie night does not a team make.

Just a bunch of people cranking it out and then getting grumpy when we didn't think they were as great as they thought they were

Yes, it seems tptb were fine checking out the web to see how great fans said they were. But then got offended when a fair number of us had concerns with the directions things took. It must be *our* problem & anyway they can write what the d*** well please, so there! Well, yes, they can write whatever they want, but we didn't have to like it.

It was obvious to me as well, that they didn't quite know what to do with Sam, even season 5 of SGA didn't use her to her full potential. Maybe they should have hired Kathryn Powers back (w[riter who was excellent at writing Sam) get someone who liked sam writing for her.
I still find it quite amusing that I didn't watch the same show as everyone else here did, but then I hated season 5 of SGA and others loved it. Different strokes and all that.

Interesting point about KP. IIRC, she was a professional writer for many years already when she worked on SG1. Maybe she didn't fit in with the frat boys.

we didn't watch the same show at all. I loved seasons 9 & 10 and I have a very low tolerance for crudity and potty-humor. I enjoyed the new spirit of SG1 -- RDA wasn't all "there" for the second half of 7 and all of 8... it was obvious to me his heart wasn't in it. When I compare seasons 1-6 to 7 & 8 the difference is startling. With Cam we had an SG1 team leader who was "there", not wishing he was elsewhere. I will rewatch the final two seasons frequently. (but then I am a huge Vala fan. ) Yes I was a long-time SG1 fan before the final seasons...I caught the first season on showtime in '97, but i could tell when RDA got "tired of the show" as he has admitted he did. he had the conflict many Divorced/split parents have.... child in one location, job in another. I understood his situation, but.... it did affect his role IMHO, of course.

I would agree to an extent that RDA's heart may not have been in the show as it was in the past. On the other hand, you wonder how much of the "phoning it in" appearance was due to the way things were filmed to accommodate his schedule. I think I remember hearing that at times his stuff was filmed with no one else there. So he wasn't acting against another actor. it can be done, but it has to be harder. I did find when they gave him something to work with he did well.

As for Cam--boy, was he "there." TPTB shoved him down our throats (along with their pet Vala) which made me resent him.

[EvenstarSRV]

Now, if they had turned the show into "the SGC" as Rcc wanted, would there still be these complaints by some? probably... after hearing the commentary for avalon and realizing that TPTB went into season 9 like it was a new show, I just divide the series at that point.

If season 9/10 had actually been a Stargate spin-off called SGC, then I'm sure there would still be complaints, but I also think that many who continued to watch SG-1 would have probably just turned off SGC. I know I would have, rather like how I watched the Practice but did not watch the spin-off Boston Legal.

Many casual viewers, like I was at the time, had no idea that the show's creaters were making a 'new show'. I saw it as a series that was going through a few cast changes, not unlike various seasons of The Office, Desperate Housewives, etc. IMHO, the writers can say that the last two seasons were a new show, but since it was still called Stargate SG-1, it was not a brand new show.

Spoiler:

I think, had they been allowed to change the name, people would feel differently. Because then it wouldn't be 6 - 8 years of history that coop and his buddies described as 'baggage' to be dealt with, ignored and rewritten. It would have been all new

and, for many of us, we wouldn't have watched a show we enjoyed being (the b word the filters won't allow through)-ized into a parody of itself.

IMHO, once they knew they weren't going to be allowed to make their own new show they should have respected the history and kept making Stargate, not Vaniel and their backup singers. The feeling i got from coop & co was 'ok, fine, they won't let us rename it but we'll show them, we'll keep doing things our way and everyone will see in the end that we were right' petulance.

The network made them hire a new male lead, so they did. but did they give him a story or reason to be there? Nah, they cobbled together some Marty Stu version and coop went onto his true 'love' Daniel Jackson and his girl friend.

Vala, who had wonderful potential, was often reduced to a running gag, sex object or simple butt of jokes. Daniel was morphed into this 'oh, so you think i'm gay? well I'll show YOU' hyper macho and often insensitive jerk. Teal'c was reduced to wordless muscle to be taken out and tortured once a season or so. Sam was shoved into the corner with her laptop as often as they could do it (cause coop couldn't get his way and get rid of the character, since he 'didn't know what to do with her' after jack was gone and he couldn't ship her) and Cameron was used as an intergalactic punching bag.

Ba'al, an intriguing villain was turned into a joke with multiple clones (because coop has taken waaayyy too seriously the 'no one dies in scifi' line).

The latter two seasons were just a mess. The writers didn't seem to know from week to week what they were doing, so the characters were written all over the place. they were twisted and morphed to fit stories cobbled together, rather than stories being written to fit the characters.

In two years, or really one to some because many say that s9 was so bad they gave up on s10, coop and his misguided estimate of his own talents and greatness, massacred a show that had been doing pretty well. I'd have respected him had he said 'well, you won't let me make stargate command, so I'll go elsewhere and make my idea'

instead he took the easy way out, playing the bait and switch and tried to pull a bit of smoke and mirrors, telling the viewers to ignore what they were seeing and instead see what he was saying.

And if we - the viewers and fans - expressed anything but unbridled joy and wonderment at their work, were were mocked, belittled and made fun of. fun.

Spoilered for just for space. The fridge is locked so here's some virtual green.

Political power from faith, yes, I would have bought that. But faith being converted into the power to bring people back from the dead? No, not so much. Had it had an underlying scientific explanation (as I was watching a sci-fi show) I might have been Ok with it.

Exactly. Political power/control from faith I get, the Goa'uld were masters at that. But with the Ori, a person's faith was somehow converted into physical energy for the Ascended beings to use as they will, with barely even an attempt at scientific explanation for it. If this was on a more fantastical show like BSG, Farscape, or Doctor Who, I probably wouldn't have had a problem with the lack of explanation.

i honestly think fandoms suffer when the writers/producers etc interact with fans.

a good chunk of the problems with s9 and 10 came, not just from teh show, but people would express their opinions, then be called on the carpet for them by Coop, JM and even MS in one interview. People that didn't like the changes 'had issues' were 'stupid not to enjoy it' etc.

i understand and empathize with the 'i'm making what i'm paid to make and that's not what you personally think i should make' attitude. Seriously, there's nothing coop or RTD can do that'll keep everyone happy.

that said, when you effectively get told to go jump off a bridge because you don't like what they're doing...sucks the fun right out of it.

you would think that professionals would know that not everyone will love their stuff and not take it personally when we don't

Was it in season 9 that the writers and others began to interact so much with the fans or did that start earlier? Because I think you make a good point, that the interaction could lead the writers to start worrying about fan reaction more than just telling a solid story. I wonder if that's what happened with Vala, where in reaction to fan comments from her in S9, she seemingly underwent a personality transplant in S10. Or, not to take this too off-topic, what happened to Keller in SGA S5.

[Skydiver]

joe & co had been interacting for a while.

that said, prior to season 9 there wasn't that massive of a backlash. yeah, some didn't like it, but there wasn't massive 'what the heck is this???' statements

[Gregorius]

I don't think fandoms suffer when TPTBs interact with them, I think it all depends on how TPTBs interact with their fans (See how JMS interacted with the fans of B5).

Prior to S9 the interaction between B@B & Co. and the fandom was nice, they gave out spoilers, behind the scenes stuff, and answered questions. From what I can recall they gave out little of their own opinions, and sticked to the things I just mentioned.

When S9 began to air it all changed, or rather the entire mood changed. A large part of the "oldies" didn't like the changes, or, more importantly, didn't like how the changes were introduced into the story. B@B & Co. seemed surprised when this happened (They should've known this could happen considering what happened with Daniel and Jonas back in S6) and suddenly the communication became a catfight.

On the one hand there were the B@B & Co., spearheaded by Joe M., who started spouting their personal opinions about the fandom, and on the other hand were the oldies who disliked the changes and were pissed off by the things B@B & Co. were saying. It became a vicious circle and it came to en eruption with the whole "Lemmings" mess, which was a stupid comment by Joe M. and was blown out of proportion by a disgruntled fandom.

Had B@B & Co. continued with what they had done before S9 but taken the advice of the members who could still write insightful posts to heart, and refrained from commenting their personal opinions about the fandom there wouldn't have been this mess.

Anyway, the problem wasn't the interaction itself it was that people started to take comments as insults to their person or work and decided to fight.

There are a lot of PTBs out there that are still interacting with their fans and didn't have a ****storm like B@B had.

[Rac80]

joe & co had been interacting for a while.

that said, prior to season 9 there wasn't that massive of a backlash. yeah, some didn't like it, but there wasn't massive 'what the heck is this???' statements

the "jonas backlash" was quite huge!

[leiasky]

I don't think fandoms suffer when TPTBs interact with them, I think it all depends on how TPTBs interact with their fans (See how JMS interacted with the fans of B5).

JMS also had a clear vision for his show.

On the commentary for 'Grace' they even say they checked the forums to see what fans opinions on a certain scene would be and they tailored that scene to cater to the the fanbase. There is something wrong with that.

As a shipper I totally enjoyed that hot kiss between Jack and Sam but how it came about, how TPTB decided to even DO it, had me shaking my head in disgust.

Characters grow and evolve from beginning to end. It's how life is. How that scene turned out shouldn't have been decided by the fans, it should have been a natural character progression as dictated by everything that had come before.

[Ashizuri]

the "jonas backlash" was quite huge!

Aw.....I loved Jonas.

[hedwig]

Aw.....I loved Jonas.

Me too. I want Jonas back. The Ori didn't get him. He was exploring offworld with his very own mini-sg team when the ori struck his homeworld, and they knew nothing about him (I like to assume this, anyway). So in my sheltered little world he's still out there somewhere.