S10: Critique & Contemplation

[EvenstarSRV]

Agreed on that, although it wasn't just her personal life. There were episodes like Gemini, which the official review on this site called the episode where Sam got up in the morning and left her brain in a jar. So, no, I didn't say it was good attention.

Personally, I think the problems with SG-1 started far earlier than S9. I just think the problems got a new focus in the last couple of seasons, but they were there earlier.

It's interesting, when I first saw Gemini I never really got the impression that Carter was just being stupid, but rather that she (and O'Neill and Teal'c) were completely out-smarted by one of the few people who could do it so thoroughly, who knew exactly what buttons to push and when. But I guess it is open to interpretation depending on your perspective.

[Killdeer]

But I guess it is open to interpretation depending on your perspective.

Oh definitely. But personally I completely agree with the Gateworld reviewer on this one.

[Khentkawes]

It's not until seasons nine and ten that I can see Teal'c really being sidelined. Babylon, a story that was conceived for Teal'c, was entirely redone for Cam. We get somewhat enlightened Jaffa who haven't viewed the Goa'uld as gods for centuries and Teal'c is virtually absent from the story. How does that make sense? All Teal'c really gets in those two seasons is Talion, wherein he regresses backwards at least five years in character development. Nowhere in those 40 episodes is there a mention of his son or his lover/would-be wife. The topic of the Jaffa's reaction to Origin is dropped almost immediately after it's opened. It's here, in these two years that Teal'c really becomes wallpaper. All of his past storylines are abandoned and almost stubbornly forgotten.

Okay, I agree that it would have made more sense for Teal'c to be the main emphasis in Babylon. That's never been one of my favorite episodes for that very reason. It's also too reminiscent of "The Last Samuri" for my tastes.

But Teal'c still had a pretty strong Jaffa storyline with Gerak, the council of the new Jeffa nation, the Ori invasion of Chulak, and the eventual destruction of Dakkara. But back to my other point... Yes, you're absolutely right, Teal'c always had a strong storyline going. But when the episodes didn't touch on that storyline, he was often relegated to "supporting" status. So sometimes I'll re-watch seasons and it will seem like it's eight episodes of Teal'c as the strong, silent supporting character, and then one episode focusing on him. IMHO, that's pretty typical of the way they wrote is character. When they wrote episodes specifically for Teal'c, he was a very strong presence. The rest of the time, he was just kind of there with an occasional funny line. So in that respect, I don't think he was sidelined any more in season 10 than the other seasons.

I see it as a problem with the later writers, especially Mallozzi, Mullie, and the other Atlantis writers.

Well, Mallozzi and Mullie started writing for SG-1 in season 4. And since you defined the glory days of SG1 as seasons 1-8, I'll point out that Mallozzi and Mullie were writing for half of that time period.

And "de-emphasized" sounds a lot like "downsized" or "phased-out"; it's a nice euphemism for something really crappy.

I didn't mean to put down any character or try to sugarcoat anything. I was just trying to point out that sometimes the focus goes to one character and sometimes it goes to a different one. It's irritating, but it does happen.

In contrast, I would say Sam had maybe three episodes during both Season 9 and 10 where she was the focal character. She did play a contributing role in most of the team episodes, but she was mainly just there to provide emotional support or technobable. In other words, she was a mostly passive character for both seasons.

Maybe it is a matter of perspective and maybe I am just biased b/c I'm a Sam fan. All I know is that if Sam in Seasons 9 and 10 had been "de-emphasized" like Daniel was in Seasons 4 and 5, I would have been a much happier camper.

But you see, that's my point! It is a matter of perspective. I agree that Sam didn't have many episodes, but I feel like she still played a significant role in the majority of S9/S10 episodes (excluding of course the ones where AT had other reasons for being absent). In season 5 (for example) I agree that Daniel had a few episodes, but I also think that the rest of the time, his role could have easily been filled by anyone else and he really didn't need to be there. That's my very-biased opinion as a Daniel fan. So I see that as "de-emphasizing" his character. Just as you feel like Sam was de-emphasized in S9/S10, while I think she still played a significant role. I'm certainly not saying that you're wrong to think Sam deserved more screen time or more emphasis in S9-10. I'm just saying that the balance between the characters has never been perfect.

Honestly, it's a tough issue that the writers never really mastered. Because they have a set number of characters and it's hard to give them all the time and development they deserve. Maybe that problem became a bit more obvious in season 9-10 because they introduced 4 new characters (Cam, Vala, Landry, and Lam) and had too many people to try to focus on all at once. But I do think it was a problem that started earlier than just S9-10. That was the perspective I was trying to get across.

[Steve 2]

But Teal'c still had a pretty strong Jaffa storyline with Gerak, the council of the new Jeffa nation, the Ori invasion of Chulak, and the eventual destruction of Dakkara. But back to my other point... Yes, you're absolutely right, Teal'c always had a strong storyline going. But when the episodes didn't touch on that storyline, he was often relegated to "supporting" status. So sometimes I'll re-watch seasons and it will seem like it's eight episodes of Teal'c as the strong, silent supporting character, and then one episode focusing on him. IMHO, that's pretty typical of the way they wrote is character. When they wrote episodes specifically for Teal'c, he was a very strong presence. The rest of the time, he was just kind of there with an occasional funny line. So in that respect, I don't think he was sidelined any more in season 10 than the other seasons.

Eh, I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one. I could give a long list of examples of how Teal'c isn't a background player in episodes where he isn't the feature character, but I selfishly don't feel like it. As to him being strong and silent, well, that is part of his character. He is strong and generally silent; the upside to that characterization is that when Teal'c does have something to say it is almost always important and insightful.

Those examples you listed from seasons nine and ten, however, just seem to emphasize my point. When Dakarra was destroyed Teal'c was stuck up on that Ori ship, not among the Jaffa. His feeling of betrayal that the Jaffa would use the Ancient weapon in such a merciless manner isn't ever explored. And there's no real fallout from these radical actions by the Jaffa. Teal'c never gets to react. The Ori invasion of Chulak isn't ever explored and, in fact, you'd never know it was Chulak if that line wasn't thrown in the episode for shock value. Teal'c certainly never gets an opportunity to react to his former home being invaded as he's inexplicably and illogically recruiting/collaborating/being beaten by the Lucian Alliance for 95% of the episode. The Jaffa storyline with Gerak does somewhat invlove Teal'c, and I do admit that it's the strongest stuff he got to do in those two years, but I feel like that plotline was undercut by a number of different factors that lead to its winding up largely unsuccessful. But that's another post.

Well, Mallozzi and Mullie started writing for SG-1 in season 4. And since you defined the glory days of SG1 as seasons 1-8, I'll point out that Mallozzi and Mullie were writing for half of that time period.

Again, this is a whole other post. But I will say that I think Mallozzi and Mullie had less total control over their scripts in the early years and were more heavily rewritten. Or to be kinder to them, I think they did much better, tighter work when they were still proving themselves than they did once they became so comfortable.

I didn't mean to put down any character or try to sugarcoat anything. I was just trying to point out that sometimes the focus goes to one character and sometimes it goes to a different one. It's irritating, but it does happen.

No, I got that. I was just making a comment.

Maybe that problem became a bit more obvious in season 9-10 because they introduced 4 new characters (Cam, Vala, Landry, and Lam) and had too many people to try to focus on all at once. That was the perspective I was trying to get across.

I agree with this. I think the writers were totally out of their gourds introducing four new characters in season nine, knowing full well that SG-1 couldn't continue for much more than two years or so. The fact that it got to go ten is incredible. There was no way that they were ever going to be able to develop four characters as well as the ones people were already tuning in to watch every week. I mean, they basically hired Browder, Black, and Bridges (seriously, what's with the all the b's?) to replace all of the perceived elements that RDA brought to the show. Yikes! No wonder they call him "Big Boy". I don't think the SG-1 audience was ready or willing to go from a show that intimately focused on four well-developed, uniquely-bonded characters to a show that followed the exploits of seven characters that seemed to be only coworkers at the best of times.

[Gregorius]

Agreed on that, although it wasn't just her personal life. There were episodes like Gemini, which the Gateworld review called the episode where Sam got up in the morning and left her brain in a jar. So, no, I didn't say it was good attention.

Another one is the one in S9 with the Ba'al clones on the base...

It's interesting, when I first saw Gemini I never really got the impression that Carter was just being stupid, but rather that she (and O'Neill and Teal'c) were completely out-smarted by one of the few people who could do it so thoroughly, who knew exactly what buttons to push and when. But I guess it is open to interpretation depending on your perspective.

The first time I saw Gemini I was surprised they allowed anyone of SG-1 to even interact with RepliCarter considering she knew everything Carter knew up to the seaon opener, allowing people who are emotionally connected/involved to work with her is waiting for an accident to happen. What also surprised me was that they allowed RepliCarter access to the SGC and to the schematics/source code of the only weapon that was known to work against the replicators; in no military in the world would that have been allowed. To place it in context: It would've been like handing the Sovjet Union access to the US' defences and technology during the cold war.

Personally, I think the problems with SG-1 started far earlier than S9. I just think the problems got a new focus in the last couple of seasons. The gaping plotholes, the lack of team, the overfocus on some characters and pairings which sidelining others, the bad characterization. IMO, while those were all problems in S9 & 10 (and the movies, and Atlantis), they certainly didn't start there.

The decline started in S7 (or S6 depending on who you ask) when the focus became more on the action and deus-ex-machina solutions (Remember the supersoldiers?). The main difference between S7/S8 and S9/S10 where that the bad episodes of S7/8 were, most of the time, better than the mediocre episodes of S9/10.

Another problem with S9/10 compared to S7/8 is that in the former more and more was relied on the "Rule of Cool" and "Deus ex Machina" solutions. Mitchell's introduction is an example of the "Rule of Cool" at work; wouldn't it be cool to get to pick any assignment for defending Earth against Anubis? Same goes for the Ori; wouldn't it be cool to fight against an enemy that doesn't only have Ancient technology but are Ascenced Ancients themselves? Etc...

The problem with this is that while the concept itself is "cool", it needs to be properly executed. If the execution fails then the concept will quickly fall into "Protagonists get defeated, find superweapon/heroic sacrifice, wins, repeat cycle", and TPTB'll have to use "Deus ex Machina" solutions to ensure victories. This is what happened in S9/10 to the story lines, and the introduction of the Mitchell and Vala characters. Since I've already discussed Vala, I'll concentrate on Mitchell.

Mitchell's introduction was badly handled. First off the "pick any assignment you want", while cool, isn't really believable considering what he did during Anubis' attack on Earth. Sure he helped safe the day, but there were other fighter pilots too, so why didn't they get the same treatment? Had TPTB added just one tiny change to his introduction, like family being powerful and pulling strings or Kinsey being his uncle or him connected to the Trust, it would've been believable (What top secret organisation places a rookie in command of its flagship team, when there are 10+ more experienced commanders ready to take over? Only powerful connections can explain that). Secondly, his attitude, especially during S9, during missions makes me, and others, wonder how exactly he passed his psych eval. I won't go into this since it's been discussed earlier in this thread.

[Crazedwraith]

In retrospect, did they really need to bring in an all new Big Bad for these seasons? I always found that the resolution of the goa'uld arc in Reckoning to be a bit cheap. The replicators attack and suddenly all the jaffa come around at once and the goa'uld pop their clogs?

I'd have liked to have seen more of a Goa'uld remnant creating trouble in the verse. After all, I doubt there are significant numbers of jaffa taking tretonin. Every time a goa'uld matures there's a chance for a new villian to emerge.

In the end the main villians for the season should have been Gerek and the Free Jaffa Nation, which would be good becuase they weren't be pure evil. One of the few things about 'Talion' that I actually liked was the implied tension between the Free Jaffa Nation and the human population of the milky way.

Considering the fact we just destroyed the only centralised power system in the galaxy, its should be in chaos and us trying to clean up the mess we'd made would be a compelling story arc.

So we killed off the bad guys; what happens then? Its always a fun option to explore.

Despite people's derision for 'filler' I can't help but feel nostalgia for the early days of SG-1 which were more episodic. They go to a planet, get in trouble. get out of trouble and then there's cake.

[Gregorius]

In retrospect, did they really need to bring in an all new Big Bad for these seasons? I always found that the resolution of the goa'uld arc in Reckoning to be a bit cheap. The replicators attack and suddenly all the jaffa come around at once and the goa'uld pop their clogs?

Because they didn't alter the formula, they had. SG-1's formula was/is "A bad guy more powerful than us trying to kill us", but at the end of S8 the dominant power in the Galaxy was Earth.

Besides, it weren't the replicators that did the Goa'uld in, it was Anubis who neutered the other System Lords. During Reckoning the only remaining, powerful, System Lord was Anubis, and Ba'al was his lackey until he decided to defect.

As for the Jaffa, Anubis replaced them with supersoldiers and basically tried to wipe them out. Not to mention that the Goa'uld, during Anubis' absence, being brought to their knees by the replicators helped break down the god image quite a bit. But you're absolutely right that it doesn't make much sense that a lot of Jaffa suddenly decided to "be free" (Although you could see it as a bunch of Jaffa leaders stepping up, due to the power vacuum left by Anubis' defeat, and claiming the power the Goa'uld once had while the rest of the Jaffa follows them as they had always followed the Goa'uld).

I'd have liked to have seen more of a Goa'uld remnant creating trouble in the verse. After all, I doubt there are significant numbers of jaffa taking tretonin. Every time a goa'uld matures there's a chance for a new villian to emerge.

Same here, but as I stated earlier in this post, it would've required them to change the formula and thus the way they'd have to write the episodes.

In the end the main villians for the season should have been Gerek and the Free Jaffa Nation, which would be good becuase they weren't be pure evil. One of the few things about 'Talion' that I actually liked was the implied tension between the Free Jaffa Nation and the human population of the milky way.

Considering the fact we just destroyed the only centralised power system in the galaxy, its should be in chaos and us trying to clean up the mess we'd made would be a compelling story arc.

Exactly, add to that a storyline where the Jaffa Nation and other species (Think Aschen) want to trial Earth/SG-1 for the crimes they commited and you'd have a far better arc than what we got. Although, I have to add this, it might've been seen as criticism on the Iraq war.

So we killed off the bad guys; what happens then? Its always a fun option to explore.

And so few shows do that because they'd have to alter their formulas.

[Mandysg1]

In retrospect, did they really need to bring in an all new Big Bad for these seasons? I always found that the resolution of the goa'uld arc in Reckoning to be a bit cheap. The replicators attack and suddenly all the jaffa come around at once and the goa'uld pop their clogs?

I'd have liked to have seen more of a Goa'uld remnant creating trouble in the verse. After all, I doubt there are significant numbers of jaffa taking tretonin. Every time a goa'uld matures there's a chance for a new villian to emerge.

In the end the main villians for the season should have been Gerek and the Free Jaffa Nation, which would be good becuase they weren't be pure evil. One of the few things about 'Talion' that I actually liked was the implied tension between the Free Jaffa Nation and the human population of the milky way.

Considering the fact we just destroyed the only centralised power system in the galaxy, its should be in chaos and us trying to clean up the mess we'd made would be a compelling story arc.

So we killed off the bad guys; what happens then? Its always a fun option to explore.

Despite people's derision for 'filler' I can't help but feel nostalgia for the early days of SG-1 which were more episodic. They go to a planet, get in trouble. get out of trouble and then there's cake.

They could have done a lot with what was left after the Goa'uld were defeated. The closest they came were with the Lucien Alliance. They could have been a good 'bad guy'; but they were treated or shown more as an OTT joke, than a real threat IMO.

And yes it was fun watching them going off to new planets, getting in trouble and escaping by the skin of thier teeth, using thier own ingenuity and not being beamed up at the last minute

[KatG]

I think the beam out technology was a "jump the shark" moment. Any sense of peril was gone, because they could be out of it with the flip of a switch.

[amconway]

I agree with this. I think the writers were totally out of their gourds introducing four new characters in season nine, knowing full well that SG-1 couldn't continue for much more than two years or so. The fact that it got to go ten is incredible. There was no way that they were ever going to be able to develop four characters as well as the ones people were already tuning in to watch every week. I mean, they basically hired Browder, Black, and Bridges (seriously, what's with the all the b's?) to replace all of the perceived elements that RDA brought to the show. Yikes! No wonder they call him "Big Boy". I don't think the SG-1 audience was ready or willing to go from a show that intimately focused on four well-developed, uniquely-bonded characters to a show that followed the exploits of seven characters that seemed to be only coworkers at the best of times.

I completely agree, although I hadn't thought of it quite that way before.

I think the beam out technology was a "jump the shark" moment. Any sense of peril was gone, because they could be out of it with the flip of a switch.

I agree about the beam's effect, although I wouldn't put it as harshly as a 'jump the shark' moment. In my opinion, the show was always better than most shows, even if it had some problems (unnecessary ones, sadly) in the last seasons. I still liked every episode and tuned in eagerly each week. I just yelled at a character or two. Okay, a character...

Oh, yeah, I was talking about the beam... Anyhoo, they fixed some of the problem of making Earth too strong
eatg spoilers

Spoiler:

by getting rid of the chair.

Now they need to get rid of the beam technology, Rings are okay, they're a little tougher to use, and you need some way to move people around without ships, because they need to get rid of the puddlejumpers, too. Way too convenient. Annoying, too...

[KatG]

Yeah. I never minded the rings. First off, to use them you had to have a Gould ship, and the SGC didn't have immediate access to one most of the time, so it was never an easy out, but a last ditch save when it was used.

With the beam, it was just, "oh, if they can find us, they can beam us out", no big deal. I think to me, it became to "trekkie" there at the end. Don't get me wrong, I like StarTrek, but it's not what I watch Stargate for.

[terr]

Yeah. I never minded the rings. First off, to use them you had to have a Gould ship, and the SGC didn't have immediate access to one most of the time, so it was never an easy out, but a last ditch save when it was used.

With the beam, it was just, "oh, if they can find us, they can beam us out", no big deal. I think to me, it became to "trekkie" there at the end. Don't get me wrong, I like StarTrek, but it's not what I watch Stargate for.

Speaking of Trek, what was with the slow lever-rise operating the transporter? If some rookie went too fast, did you get beamed up with your left and right feet reversed? (I know it is off-topic, but I've always wondered?)

[Gregorius]

Oh, yeah, I was talking about the beam... Anyhoo, they fixed some of the problem of making Earth too strong by getting rid of the chair. Now they need to get rid of the beam technology, Rings are okay, they're a little tougher to use, and you need some way to move people around without ships, because they need to get rid of the puddlejumpers, too. Way too convenient. Annoying, too...

Spoiler:

They lost the chair, but gained the City of the Ancients. I'd call that an upgrade to the defenses of Earth. Plus, they'll probably go to one of the planets, like that one in The Lost City, and get a chair from there.

With the beam, it was just, "oh, if they can find us, they can beam us out", no big deal. I think to me, it became to "trekkie" there at the end. Don't get me wrong, I like StarTrek, but it's not what I watch Stargate for.

Not Trekkie, in Star Trek the transporters failed most of the times, leaving the away team stuck until they'd fixed the problem of the week.

Speaking of Trek, what was with the slow lever-rise operating the transporter? If some rookie went too fast, did you get beamed up with your left and right feet reversed? (I know it is off-topic, but I've always wondered?)

I always figured it was to slowly increase the energy of the transporter, so that in case of a problem they'd be capable of interrupting the transport.

[suse]

Because they didn't alter the formula, they had. SG-1's formula was/is "A bad guy more powerful than us trying to kill us", but at the end of S8 the dominant power in the Galaxy was Earth.

Besides, it weren't the replicators that did the Goa'uld in, it was Anubis who neutered the other System Lords. During Reckoning the only remaining, powerful, System Lord was Anubis, and Ba'al was his lackey until he decided to defect.



Same here, but as I stated earlier in this post, it would've required them to change the formula and thus the way they'd have to write the episodes.

And so few shows do that because they'd have to alter their formulas.

And that would be a require more thinking. And at that time they had 40 eps to produce a year. not the time to introduce originality.

Exactly, add to that a storyline where the Jaffa Nation and other species (Think Aschen) want to trial Earth/SG-1 for the crimes they commited and you'd have a far better arc than what we got. Although, I have to add this, it might've been seen as criticism on the Iraq war.

So instead they criticize religions (a bit more forcefully that with the Goa'uld). At least they make it obvious those particular religions are false. Still, it's not hard to see parallels in thinking.

They really could have done something with the Lucien Alliance rather than making them ineffective (and their lackeys Damn you, Cam Mitchell! comes to mind comic relief).

Adding to the "cool factor" was Mitchell being introduced as having been awarded a Congressional Medal of Honor - the US military's highest honor.

[amconway]

Spoilers for EaTG

Spoiler:

They lost the chair, but gained the City of the Ancients. I'd call that an upgrade to the defenses of Earth. Plus, they'll probably go to one of the planets, like that one in The Lost City, and get a chair from there.

Spoilers for EaTG

Spoiler:

I'm thinking that Atlantis won'e be staying on, or in the immediate vicinity of Earth. Not sure how theyll do the, because it makes sense to keep it around and start doing proper research there, but I think Atlantis fans would be unaccepting of that. Besides, you're right. It makes Earth too powerful.

They really could have done something with the Lucien Alliance rather than making them ineffective

I was glad to see the Lucian Alliance go. They, and the emphasis on Vala's criminality, were the things I really didn't care for in season 9. It seemed like a move into Star Wars territory, although I did laugh when Daniel recognized that.
All of a sudden there were hundreds of worlds capable of interstellar travel, wide ranging smuggling operations, etc. That happened way too fast after the fall of the system lords and, really, an intergalactic mafia weren't all that interesting to me. It also provided too much of a platform for 'Vala teaches SG-1 to be Space Pirates'.