S10: Critique & Contemplation

[suse]

She should have been given a purpose, certainly, but the writers were hampered by 2 pretty major problems; the fact that Vala was not initially intended to join SG-1 (I think this led them to do things with the character that they would never have done if they'd thought they were introducing a new team member), and the actress's RL pregnancy (I can think of worse plotlines that could have come out of that--I just don't want to. )

Whatever the case, I found the shift to crime in the galaxy, whether Vala's or the Alliance's to be pretty small potatoes next to the Goa'uld and the replicators, no matter how dangerous the Alliance might have been made.

Actually CB said in an interview she was approached by Coop about coming back in a more permanent capacity in S10. This while she as there filming the early eps of S9. Also, I seem to remember reading an interview and being rather shocked that Skiffy nixed the idea of having both join in S9 because they though having both join at the same time would be too much. Bridge would have been happy to have both. So they had more than an inkling she'd be back. But decided "sexy" and "fun" was more important than logical character progression. If she had progressed from PU into someone the team could somehow trust, maybe. After the first 5 eps of S9? I just didn't buy what they were trying sell me. Literally. No Ori storyline will ever touch my DVD shelf.

Then Skiffy turns around and wants/demands CB in a late S9 ep. I still wish they had hid the pregnancy behind hats, counters and plants. Adria...

I'm still a bit as to why Vala *needed* to be a member of the team. It wouldn't ahve made a difference in the story if she wasn't. Except she would have felt slightly less forced. Which could only be a good thing, considering how often she was the focus of so many S10 eps.

suse

[Callista]

What do you think about the idea that Jack wasn't happy about the rest of the team breaking up when he left but they all had very legitimate reasons and paths to pursue so he sent Cam there with the hopes that Cam would talk them into "getting the band back together"?

Sure, Jack is a big, powerful general by that point, but he doesn't really have any hold over Teal'c (who very legitimately would want to go back to his people) and not a whole lot over Daniel either (who has been begging to go to Atlantis at this point for a year) and despite Sam being a good soldier, she's definitely more useful as a scientist and researcher/developer so with the other two going, if Sam wanted to move I think he'd be hard-pressed not to let her. So, he sends the guy that they all know has a big hero-crush on them and is excited and enthusiastic and can play a bit of a guilt card since they all saw him in the hospital (I'll admit there's a weak point here...why did they all go visit him in the hospital? Maybe they went on a grand tour and visited all the people who ended up in the hospital after the fight but we only saw them visiting Cam?) to try to persuade them to get back together. If he can get them back as a team, Jack would know full well that Cam wouldn't actually be in charge of anything as Sam is of equal rank and Daniel and Teal'c never paid all that terribly much attention to Jack's orders let alone some new guy. If he can't get them back together, then Cam might not want to be there anyway or Jack could re-assign him to a different team when Cam gets discouraged by the people he has to choose from in forming a new SG-1. Jack wouldn't have known that they were going to find a big, gigantic new threat to the galaxy during the first week. It looked like it would be an easy, calm time to introduce a new guy and teach a promising but brash officer some good lessons in patience and team-work.

I just came up with this idea, so I'm quite sure it's full of holes. Poke away

[jasminaGo]

What do you think about the idea that Jack wasn't happy about the rest of the team breaking up when he left but they all had very legitimate reasons and paths to pursue so he sent Cam there with the hopes that Cam would talk them into "getting the band back together"?

Sure, Jack is a big, powerful general by that point, but he doesn't really have any hold over Teal'c (who very legitimately would want to go back to his people) and not a whole lot over Daniel either (who has been begging to go to Atlantis at this point for a year) and despite Sam being a good soldier, she's definitely more useful as a scientist and researcher/developer so with the other two going, if Sam wanted to move I think he'd be hard-pressed not to let her. So, he sends the guy that they all know has a big hero-crush on them and is excited and enthusiastic and can play a bit of a guilt card since they all saw him in the hospital (I'll admit there's a weak point here...why did they all go visit him in the hospital? Maybe they went on a grand tour and visited all the people who ended up in the hospital after the fight but we only saw them visiting Cam?) to try to persuade them to get back together. If he can get them back as a team, Jack would know full well that Cam wouldn't actually be in charge of anything as Sam is of equal rank and Daniel and Teal'c never paid all that terribly much attention to Jack's orders let alone some new guy. If he can't get them back together, then Cam might not want to be there anyway or Jack could re-assign him to a different team when Cam gets discouraged by the people he has to choose from in forming a new SG-1. Jack wouldn't have known that they were going to find a big, gigantic new threat to the galaxy during the first week. It looked like it would be an easy, calm time to introduce a new guy and teach a promising but brash officer some good lessons in patience and team-work.

I just came up with this idea, so I'm quite sure it's full of holes. Poke away

*takes a stick*

The biggest problem with that theory, is that it would make Jack an incredibly selfish and arrogant person, which I don't think he is. He's moved on to different things, so why stop his friends from doing the same? The main reason Teal'c joined the SGC was to free the Jaffa, now that they're free, he needs to be with them, Daniel had wanted to get to Atlantis for years, I never bought Sam's excuse for going to Area 51, but still, it was a bigger better job for her, a new command. I know Jack has stopped them from doing these things before, but at the time they were all still needed on SG1, after the Goa'uld and the Replicators were gone, everyone were free to move on, and do what ever they wanted to do.

[leiasky]

I would say the first is extrapolation. Based on what we know about Hammond and O'Neill over several seasons I agree with suse's statement.

As do I. If they could have played Cam up as a junior member of a SG team that had been going through the gate and we just hadn't seen him, maybe he'd have been easier to swallow as the leader of SG-1. But when Sam came back, she should have been given command instantly. She had the experience, the rank and she'd been in command of SG-1 the previous year.

[leiasky]

*takes a stick*

The biggest problem with that theory, is that it would make Jack an incredibly selfish and arrogant person, which I don't think he is. He's moved on to different things, so why stop his friends from doing the same? The main reason Teal'c joined the SGC was to free the Jaffa, now that they're free, he needs to be with them, Daniel had wanted to get to Atlantis for years, I never bought Sam's excuse for going to Area 51, but still, it was a bigger better job for her, a new command. I know Jack has stopped them from doing these things before, but at the time they were all still needed on SG1, after the Goa'uld and the Replicators were gone, everyone were free to move on, and do what ever they wanted to do.

Agreed.

Add to that that all of the beginning Cam stuff seemed so darn FORCED, that I just don't buy anything they tell me about him at all. It was done to make the average viewer like and accept him. As if seeing the original members of SG-1 doing so would instantly translate to the audience.

[suse]

*takes a stick*

The biggest problem with that theory, is that it would make Jack an incredibly selfish and arrogant person, which I don't think he is. He's moved on to different things, so why stop his friends from doing the same? The main reason Teal'c joined the SGC was to free the Jaffa, now that they're free, he needs to be with them, Daniel had wanted to get to Atlantis for years, I never bought Sam's excuse for going to Area 51, but still, it was a bigger better job for her, a new command. I know Jack has stopped them from doing these things before, but at the time they were all still needed on SG1, after the Goa'uld and the Replicators were gone, everyone were free to move on, and do what ever they wanted to do.

I agree. It's reasonable that they split up and Jack would be okay with that. It's the nature of the military. SG-1 was an abnormality, staying together as long as they did.

suse

[Khentkawes]

The biggest problem with that theory, is that it would make Jack an incredibly selfish and arrogant person, which I don't think he is. He's moved on to different things, so why stop his friends from doing the same?

First off, I wouldn't categorize Jack as selfish or arrogant either.

However, how do you explain when Jack stopped Daniel from going to Atlantis (twice)? I guess you could say that Daniel was "needed" due to the on-going war with the Goa'uld... but that doesn't fly for me. The Goa'uld were substantially weakened by the time the SGC finds Atlantis. And with Anubis (supposedly) gone, they don't need Daniel's insight into that situation. And seriously, what exactly does Daniel do in season 8? Well, he gets blackmailed by the Trust and stranded on another planet. He gets beat up by Vala (but that's just another way to keep him from Atlantis). Up until Reckoning and Threads, Daniel basically contributes nothing to the fight against the Goa'uld (and the fact that he contributed in those episodes was purely a fluke that the SGC could not have anticipated). And he's never known much about the Replicators, so he's not really necessary in that instance either. If necessary, there's no reason that his position couldn't have been filled by someone else. So, honestly, as much as I like Jack, I've always seen his decision to keep Daniel at the SGC in season 8 a little petty. The writers never really gave me a good enough reason for Jack's actions.

Now if Jack just believes that Daniel (and Sam and Teal'c) are the best that the SGC has, and therefore wants to keep them at the SGC where he thinks they can do the most good, then okay. But that means that Callista's theory is slightly more plausible.

[jasminaGo]

First off, I wouldn't categorize Jack as selfish or arrogant either.

However, how do you explain when Jack stopped Daniel from going to Atlantis (twice)? I guess you could say that Daniel was "needed" due to the on-going war with the Goa'uld... but that doesn't fly for me. The Goa'uld were substantially weakened by the time the SGC finds Atlantis. And with Anubis (supposedly) gone, they don't need Daniel's insight into that situation. And seriously, what exactly does Daniel do in season 8? Well, he gets blackmailed by the Trust and stranded on another planet. He gets beat up by Vala (but that's just another way to keep him from Atlantis). Up until Reckoning and Threads, Daniel basically contributes nothing to the fight against the Goa'uld (and the fact that he contributed in those episodes was purely a fluke that the SGC could not have anticipated). And he's never known much about the Replicators, so he's not really necessary in that instance either. If necessary, there's no reason that his position couldn't have been filled by someone else. So, honestly, as much as I like Jack, I've always seen his decision to keep Daniel at the SGC in season 8 a little petty. The writers never really gave me a good enough reason for Jack's actions.

Now if Jack just believes that Daniel (and Sam and Teal'c) are the best that the SGC has, and therefore wants to keep them at the SGC where he thinks they can do the most good, then okay. But that means that Callista's theory is slightly more plausible.

I guess we'll disagree on that. I think Daniel did have a big role in S8. Cause Anubis wasn't really gone, and they knew that since ep 3, the Replicators were also 'out there', the fact that Daniel didn't have to much experience with them didn't mean we wasn't important, since in the end he played a vital role in defeating both those enemies, and I think Jack realized that importance.

Also the difference between S8 and S9 is that in S8 no one knew what happened to the Atlantis crew, what they found in the Pegasus galaxy, and if a rescue mission is send will they come back? By S9 they had made contact with the expedition, had the "Daedalus" and a ZPM, and even though there was danger in the Pegasus galaxy, the people back on Earth (read Jack) knew what they were up against.

Sam, Teal'c and Daniel are very important to the SGC, and as long as they were needed they should have been kept there. But after the threats were gone for sure, why not let them step away from the front line, and do something else if that's what they want? Given everything that has happened to Jack in the past I think he is on one of the rare people who can truly understand that.

[suse]

First off, I wouldn't categorize Jack as selfish or arrogant either.
<snip>

Now if Jack just believes that Daniel (and Sam and Teal'c) are the best that the SGC has, and therefore wants to keep them at the SGC where he thinks they can do the most good, then okay. But that means that Callista's theory is slightly more plausible.

Then he could have blocked Sam's transfer. Not much he could do with the boys as they aren't military. He still could have blocked Daniel from going though. But putting them under a (Stargate) untrained n00b.... I just don't buy it. Mitchell did nothing more (and significantly less) than each of the team has done for each other numerous times. Why the special treatment? Lots of people have died/been injured to save SG-1's bacon before.

suse

[EvenstarSRV]

What do you think about the idea that Jack wasn't happy about the rest of the team breaking up when he left but they all had very legitimate reasons and paths to pursue so he sent Cam there with the hopes that Cam would talk them into "getting the band back together"?

Sure, Jack is a big, powerful general by that point, but he doesn't really have any hold over Teal'c (who very legitimately would want to go back to his people) and not a whole lot over Daniel either (who has been begging to go to Atlantis at this point for a year) and despite Sam being a good soldier, she's definitely more useful as a scientist and researcher/developer so with the other two going, if Sam wanted to move I think he'd be hard-pressed not to let her. So, he sends the guy that they all know has a big hero-crush on them and is excited and enthusiastic and can play a bit of a guilt card since they all saw him in the hospital (I'll admit there's a weak point here...why did they all go visit him in the hospital? Maybe they went on a grand tour and visited all the people who ended up in the hospital after the fight but we only saw them visiting Cam?) to try to persuade them to get back together. If he can get them back as a team, Jack would know full well that Cam wouldn't actually be in charge of anything as Sam is of equal rank and Daniel and Teal'c never paid all that terribly much attention to Jack's orders let alone some new guy. If he can't get them back together, then Cam might not want to be there anyway or Jack could re-assign him to a different team when Cam gets discouraged by the people he has to choose from in forming a new SG-1. Jack wouldn't have known that they were going to find a big, gigantic new threat to the galaxy during the first week. It looked like it would be an easy, calm time to introduce a new guy and teach a promising but brash officer some good lessons in patience and team-work.

I just came up with this idea, so I'm quite sure it's full of holes. Poke away

I know there are several instances when Daniel and Teal'c did not follow O'Neill's orders, but I think it's quite an exaggeration to say that they never paid much attention to his orders. I just can't see O'Neill, however much he may like and respect Daniel and Teal'c, keeping them on his team if he had such trouble getting them to follow his orders because it would have been detrimental to the cohesiveness of the military unit.

Also, what sense would it have been for O'Neill to put Mitchell in the position of SG-1 leader if he wasn't going to be in charge of anything? It would completely defeat the purpose of putting him in that position and needlessly muddy the chain of command of a military unit, which just doesn't seem wise. And for that matter, as long as Daniel, Teal'c and Sam are on the SGC's payroll, O'Neill could have just ordered them to stay together, no third-party guilt-tripping required.

And how exactly do you teach a brash officer the value of patience and teamwork if you put him in a position where he has significantly less experience than his teammates, but has the authority to override them at will?? That's just asking for trouble ie Off the Grid.

[jckfan55]

I'm still a bit as to why Vala *needed* to be a member of the team. It wouldn't ahve made a difference in the story if she wasn't. Except she would have felt slightly less forced. Which could only be a good thing, considering how often she was the focus of so many S10 eps.

suse

As usual, we're sharing a brain on this point.

I guess we'll disagree on that. I think Daniel did have a big role in S8. Cause Anubis wasn't really gone, and they knew that since ep 3, the Replicators were also 'out there', the fact that Daniel didn't have to much experience with them didn't mean we wasn't important, since in the end he played a vital role in defeating both those enemies, and I think Jack realized that importance.

I think there was an element of DAniel being needed on Earth and the fact that going to Atlantis was likely a one way trip and Jack didn't want to lose him. So there may have been a bit of personal motivation, but I think he was important here. Besides, he was a principal cast member.

ETA: 9 times out of 10 when I pull up this thread my eyes see: "Critique and Complaints" instead of the actual thread title....hmmm....

[RealmOfX]

What do you think about the idea that Jack wasn't happy about the rest of the team breaking up when he left but they all had very legitimate reasons and paths to pursue so he sent Cam there with the hopes that Cam would talk them into "getting the band back together"?

Sure, Jack is a big, powerful general by that point, but he doesn't really have any hold over Teal'c (who very legitimately would want to go back to his people) and not a whole lot over Daniel either (who has been begging to go to Atlantis at this point for a year) and despite Sam being a good soldier, she's definitely more useful as a scientist and researcher/developer so with the other two going, if Sam wanted to move I think he'd be hard-pressed not to let her. So, he sends the guy that they all know has a big hero-crush on them and is excited and enthusiastic and can play a bit of a guilt card since they all saw him in the hospital (I'll admit there's a weak point here...why did they all go visit him in the hospital? Maybe they went on a grand tour and visited all the people who ended up in the hospital after the fight but we only saw them visiting Cam?) to try to persuade them to get back together. If he can get them back as a team, Jack would know full well that Cam wouldn't actually be in charge of anything as Sam is of equal rank and Daniel and Teal'c never paid all that terribly much attention to Jack's orders let alone some new guy. If he can't get them back together, then Cam might not want to be there anyway or Jack could re-assign him to a different team when Cam gets discouraged by the people he has to choose from in forming a new SG-1. Jack wouldn't have known that they were going to find a big, gigantic new threat to the galaxy during the first week. It looked like it would be an easy, calm time to introduce a new guy and teach a promising but brash officer some good lessons in patience and team-work.

I just came up with this idea, so I'm quite sure it's full of holes. Poke away

Actually I don't think much of the idea at all, why are you having Jack behave in such a childish fashion? What is he a grade schooler trying to manipulate his friends lives through third parties? He's a General for cryin' out loud!

Seriously I think that is a totally unprofessional way to act and I do not for one instant think that Jack would think or do something like that. I also never believed that Jack would assign Mitchell to lead a team when he was inexperienced and unqualified to do so nor do I believe Jack would try to ruin Sam's career by taking a command off her and give it to the said noob and then quickly take a second command off her and drag her back to an unspecified role on SG-1.

[Mandysg1]

Actually I don't think much of the idea at all, why are you having Jack behave in such a childish fashion? What is he a grade schooler trying to manipulate his friends lives through third parties? He's a General for cryin' out loud!

Seriously I think that is a totally unprofessional way to act and I do not for one instant think that Jack would think or do something like that. I also never believed that Jack would assign Mitchell to lead a team when he was inexperienced and unqualified to do so nor do I believe Jack would try to ruin Sam's career by taking a command off her and give it to the said noob and then quickly take a second command off her and drag her back to an unspecified role on SG-1.

One thing I think many people get mixed up, is that Jack didn't give Cam command of SG1, Landry did. There is no way Jack could have done that anyway (not that he would) because Landry took over command of the SGC so every call (bad or good) fell on his shoulders.

[Callista]

Actually I don't think much of the idea at all, why are you having Jack behave in such a childish fashion? What is he a grade schooler trying to manipulate his friends lives through third parties? He's a General for cryin' out loud!

Actually, I wasn't thinking of him doing it for malicious reasons, but more for sentimental or caring reasons of thinking of what's really best for the rest of his extremely close friends. Whether or not people view it that way would certainly be a matter of personal opinion....Which is better in the long run, pursuing your career but losing touch with your friends or staying in close contact with your friends but not advancing in your career? Neither one is clearly better for everyone. One is better for some people and the other is better for others.

But, now that you mention it, I never bought that Jack would get promoted to General because I think he does act quite childishly a lot of the time. At least from season seven onward. And once he was a General, he only got worse. (I'm not trying to bash Jack here. I like him just fine. I just don't think he's the best General in the world.)

Seriously I think that is a totally unprofessional way to act and I do not for one instant think that Jack would think or do something like that. I also never believed that Jack would assign Mitchell to lead a team when he was inexperienced and unqualified to do so nor do I believe Jack would try to ruin Sam's career by taking a command off her and give it to the said noob and then quickly take a second command off her and drag her back to an unspecified role on SG-1.

Well, part of the idea was that he wasn't "taking command" from anyone. It was up to all of them to make the decision....and apparently they all decided to stay (at least after the big new threat came along), whether Jack had anything to do with it or not.

I don't follow you with Sam having two commands taken from her. I get the "drag her back to an unspecified role on SG-1" one, but what was the first that was taken?

Again, it's just an idea. I'm not saying that was what the writers were actually going for or anything, it's just something that occurred to me. Sorry if it upset you.

[Callista]

One thing I think many people get mixed up, is that Jack didn't give Cam command of SG1, Landry did. There is no way Jack could have done that anyway (not that he would) because Landry took over command of the SGC so every call (bad or good) fell on his shoulders.

Didn't Cam say that Jack told him he could be in charge of SG-1?

(That's how I remember it, but I might very well be mistaken. I haven't watched that episode in a while.)