S10: Critique & Contemplation

[suse]

I thought this was a very important episode character-wise. It showed that while Cam knew a lot about what he had experience with, he had tons to learn and he better learn it fast. It showed that he was in much the same position that Daniel had been--knowing a lot about somethings, but not realizing the danger of seemingly small things.

It also showed that Daniel had gone from a man who did not always see the trouble a situation might present to a man who had a clearer vision of that than many of the people around. It also gave a hint as to the toll that takes on him.

To me that specifically says he's not ready for command. The "there was no one on SG-1 when he came" rings a bit hollow imo as no one was there because it was written that way, not because of real life events.

It just seems odd to me that Cam and Daniel can change and grow but Sam must stay (in this case, return to being) the technobabbling 2IC because she's a scientist. That comment was a general one, not pointed specifically at you.

suse

[amconway]

It just seems odd to me that Cam and Daniel can change and grow but Sam must stay (in this case, return to being) the technobabbling 2IC because she's a scientist.

I agree. Sam was absolutely not given the attention that she deserved as a character. There should have been much more room for her to demonstrate growth, and they should have tried to find other ways than various romances to do so.

I just wanted to add that it is nice to see new posters with differing points of view in here. Seeing so many positive comments will definitely take a little getting used to though. LOL.

I let others blaze the trail, thus demonstrating some rather extreme cowardice. I feel shame...

[jckfan55]

My understanding: The history of this thread is that S10 is the focus, but also delving into S9 & issues that carried from 9 to 10 is acceptable. It's not a discussion of all seasons, though comparisions will inevitably come up.

[Melora]

When did they make him grumpy? He started to take things in stride, but he's still pretty upbeat. Can't agree with you about the character. I don't think it was a bad idea to bring in a character who could be excited about the program.

I had no problem with Cam being excited about the program. It was actually refreshing considering Daniel, Sam, and Teal’c seemed grumpy, depressed, and/or disillusioned for most of Season 9. One of my biggest disappointments with Season 9 was not so much the new characters, but how the old ones were written (or not written as the case may be). They were the characters that I already cared about and wanted to learn more about. I was fine with adding a new character, but I wanted the show to continue to focus on ALL of the various characters on the team.

I think I wrote a post back when Season 9 first aired where I complained about how angry and snippy Daniel was all the time, about how Sam seemed depressed, and about how Teal’c was barely there even when he was on screen. It seemed to me that saving the world had finally gotten old for the team. And maybe it had. If the writers had explored this angle and had given more story time to the original three team members, I might have enjoyed the season more than I did. Here they had just defeated two major enemies, had gone through some major personal issues, and were now looking forward to moving on to other peace-time projects. How must it have felt to be dragged back and have to begin a new fight against a seemly invincible foe? But the writers did not really explore that angle and focused almost entirely on showcasing Cam’s enthusiasm and Vala’s antics.

There was little to no character growth or exploration of the older characters, especially in Season 9. Some might argue that Cam (and later Vala) needed the extra screen time b/c he was new and the other characters had been on the show for 8 years. I agree that he needed more time than the others. But it seems to me that the other three characters were almost completely neglected and allowed to become stagnant at the expense of the new ones, which I do not see as a good thing for the show overall.

And then the writers sort of did the same thing to Cam in Season 10, probably to allow them more time to focus on Vala and Daniel. I find this just as disappointing as the sidelining of Sam and Teal’c in both seasons. I guess what I am saying is that I felt a distinct lack of balance in terms of character development in both seasons, which is something the writers had never really had a problem with before.

[suse]

My understanding: The history of this thread is that S10 is the focus, but also delving into S9 & issues that carried from 9 to 10 is acceptable. It's not a discussion of all seasons, though comparisions will inevitably come up.

That's my understanding also. Said much better.

suse

[amconway]

I think I wrote a post back when Season 9 first aired where I complained about how angry and snippy Daniel was all the time, about how Sam seemed depressed, and about how Teal’c was barely there even when he was on screen.

I agree with you on that. At the same time, although I was really dishearted by how irritated Daniel was, it did seem natural, and really quite restrained given the provokation. To me a lot of the problems like this and the reduced screen time for Sam and Teal'c were a direct result of the OTT writing of Vala.

It seemed to me that saving the world had finally gotten old for the team. And maybe it had. If the writers had explored this angle and had given more story time to the original three team members, I might have enjoyed the season more than I did. Here they had just defeated two major enemies, had gone through some major personal issues, and were now looking forward to moving on to other peace-time projects. How must it have felt to be dragged back and have to begin a new fight against a seemly invincible foe? But the writers did not really explore that angle and focused almost entirely on showcasing Cam’s enthusiasm and Vala’s antics.

Again, I agree with this completely. They had every reason to be reluctant to come back, and to be somewhat unhappy to do so. It would have been very interesting if they had actually explored this.

And then the writers sort of did the same thing to Cam in Season 10, probably to allow them more time to focus on Vala and Daniel. I find this just as disappointing as the sidelining of Sam and Teal’c in both seasons. I guess what I am saying is that I felt a distinct lack of balance in terms of character development in both seasons, which is something the writers had never really had a problem with before.

Agreed, but I feel the need to point out that any real character development for Daniel took place when he managed to escape from Vala for a while, notably in episodes like The Quest, and The Shroud. I think that the way the writers chose to make Vala larger than life made normal character development almost impossible when she was around--for all the characters. There were notable exceptions to this, such as the first episodes in the Ori galaxy, 'The Powers That Be', 'Memento Mori', and the episodes when Vala was in the Ori galaxy relating to Tomin.

[Melora]

My understanding: The history of this thread is that S10 is the focus, but also delving into S9 & issues that carried from 9 to 10 is acceptable. It's not a discussion of all seasons, though comparisions will inevitably come up.

I guess I'm more confused about the "critique" and "nostalgia" thing. It seems all posters are allowed to challenge and question critiques, which I have no problem with. It just makes the debate that much more interesting. But how do you question or challenge something that someone else is "nostalgic" about?

I know I couldn't b/c nostalgia is a personal feeling that is very subjective. I also have no desire to quash someone else's "squee" and I doubt anyone else in here would want to either. I guess my question is whether this thread is going to become more of a general discussion thread and the other is going to remain a pro-Season 10 thread in everything but name. If that's the case, I'm okay with it. I just felt it was important to point this out since it seems these two threads are sort of test cases for similar threads in other areas of the forum (areas where emotions tend to run higher).

[amconway]

I know I couldn't b/c nostalgia is a personal feeling that is very subjective. I also have no desire to quash someone else's "squee" and I doubt anyone else in here would want to either. I guess my question is whether this thread is going to become more of a general discussion thread and the other is going to remain a pro-Season 10 thread in everything but name. If that's the case, I'm okay with it. I just felt it was important to point this out since it seems these two threads are sort of test cases for similar threads in other areas of the forum (areas where emotions tend to run higher).

I'm just assuming that if I have a thought on a post, I can respond in whatever way I believe, as long as I'm not bashing characters or being unmindful of the need to respect differing views. I figure balance is the name of the game.

[Callista]

I guess my question is whether this thread is going to become more of a general discussion thread and the other is going to remain a pro-Season 10 thread in everything but name. If that's the case, I'm okay with it. I just felt it was important to point this out since it seems these two threads are sort of test cases for similar threads in other areas of the forum (areas where emotions tend to run higher).

Oops! I didn't even see the other thread until you guys mentioned it. I guess I thought the two original threads got merged together or something. I was looking for a general discussion thread with people able to represent both positive and negative opinions as well as just picking up insights that might enhance my viewing of the show. So far this thread seems fine for that, although maybe both of them are?

[Melora]

Agreed, but I feel the need to point out that any real character development for Daniel took place when he managed to escape from Vala for a while, notably in episodes like The Quest, and The Shroud. I think that the way the writers chose to make Vala larger than life made normal character development almost impossible when she was around--for all the characters. There were notable exceptions to this, such as the first episodes in the Ori galaxy, 'The Powers That Be', 'Memento Mori', and the episodes when Vala was in the Ori galaxy relating to Tomin.

I think you're right about this. Most of Daniel's real character development came when Vala was not around (i.e. Prototype, Shroud). Like you stated, there are exceptions. But I noticed that in most of those scenes where they are together and Daniel is the focus, Vala plays a very passive role. For example, in Pegasus Project and The Quest, Vala is just there to keep Daniel company. She really has no other purpose in the episodes. Likewise, Daniel often played a very passive role in most of the episodes where Vala got a lot of development. He tended to only be the object of her teasing and jokes.

As much as I hated the scene, I think one of the few times where both got equal development and both played an active role was the infamous confrontation scene in "Unending." Unfortunately, that scene really changed my opinion of both characters and not in a good way.

[KatG]

I'm just assuming that if I have a thought on a post, I can respond in whatever way I believe, as long as I'm not bashing characters or being unmindful of the need to respect differing views. I figure balance is the name of the game.

Yes. Under the outline of the Vision Statement that's exactly what it means.

[amconway]

I think you're right about this. Most of Daniel's real character development came when Vala was not around (i.e. Prototype, Shroud). Like you stated, there are exceptions. But I noticed that in most of those scenes where they are together and Daniel is the focus, Vala plays a very passive role. For example, in Pegasus Project and The Quest, Vala is just there to keep Daniel company. She really has no other purpose in the episodes. Likewise, Daniel often played a very passive role in most of the episodes where Vala got a lot of development. He tended to only be the object of her teasing and jokes.

Daniel could only function as an archeologist if Vala stayed to the sideline, otherwise he wouldn't be able to work. Likewise, when the scene was about Vala's antics, he also couldn't function in any meaningful way without her interfering. Both of these characters were only able to actually do something if the writers weren't doing the 'Daniel/Vala' dynamic.

As much as I hated the scene, I think one of the few times where both got equal development and both played an active role was the infamous confrontation scene in "Unending." Unfortunately, that scene really changed my opinion of both characters and not in a good way.

This is probably a function of the fact that both actors objected to the scene, which they thought was out of character for both. They decided that the only way they could make it work is if both characters were out of character in the scene. That's why Daniel is so mean, and Vala is so open.

Don't let it change your opinion of the characters. Remember, it never happened!

[Melora]

I'm just assuming that if I have a thought on a post, I can respond in whatever way I believe, as long as I'm not bashing characters or being unmindful of the need to respect differing views. I figure balance is the name of the game.

Sounds good to me.

I'm all for a more general discussion. I was just confused about the role each thread is supposed to play. Perhaps this is going to be thread that is more about discussion and respectful debate and the other is going to be more about reminiscing and appreciation?

Oops! I didn't even see the other thread until you guys mentioned it. I guess I thought the two original threads got merged together or something. I was looking for a general discussion thread with people able to represent both positive and negative opinions as well as just picking up insights that might enhance my viewing of the show. So far this thread seems fine for that, although maybe both of them are?

I think so too. But then again, I have always thought this thread was good for thought-provoking discussions. The more the merrier.

[Callista]

As much as I hated the scene, I think one of the few times where both got equal development and both played an active role was the infamous confrontation scene in "Unending." Unfortunately, that scene really changed my opinion of both characters and not in a good way.

I think I'm one of the only people that actually liked that scene. I didn't see Daniel as being mean at all. If anything I was surprised it took him that long to tell her off!

[amconway]

I didn't see Daniel as being mean at all. If anything I was surprised it took him that long to tell her off!

That's the thing. He put up with it for two years! It seems very strange that he would snap now. The argument can be made that it was stress of being trapped on the ship, but, it still seemed a bit odd to me. I think the actors intended it to be odd though, in that it was a function of the situation that caused confrontation, leading them to, uh... behave in a way that they wouldn't have at the SGC.