Daniel Jackson/Vala Mal Doran Ship/Discussion/Appreciation Thread

[Kales]

Thanks....and mas or menos I seem to be coming down with a sore throat now, but I have more energy and my headache is gone. I guess it's a trade-off, right?



Yeah, I joined around July. We're both summer initiates.

I agree with the Sparky v DanDoran() thing. I started out watching SGA and got so used to going through scenes and picking up glances and body gestures in order to find the shippy moments. Then I started watching SG-1 and was amazed at how many blatantly shippy moments DV were getting. I mean, SGA seems to be progressively shying away from ships (if that's even possible) while SG-1 seems to be acknowledging and feeding the shippers. It's strange considering they share a lot of the same writers/directors/producers.

I definitely think we are fortunate with this ship. We really do get so much to work with. It's usually not a matter of "will there be a DV moment in this episode?" but rather "what kind of DV moment will it be?" It's nice to know that we also have the writers and CB/MS backing this pairing up.

Only one day left until "Bounty."

poundpuppy29, you got a new banner! I didn't recognize you I thought it was a new person to our thread.

-Stef

Nice one poundpuppy - sorry I only looked just now there! Speaking of new banners Stef, yours is pretty too.

Maybe it has something to do with SG-1 being near the end (of the tv incarnation at least). 'Ships are much easier to handle being established when they're in a film time scale, if they are going to establish them anyway.

'Ships - speaking generally, there are exceptions - are much harder to maintain as established without dulling the characters on a one hour/week level. Great writing can do it, and good variety of focus in an ensemble show (basically it not being constantly about them, limiting screen time devoted to a fic and using it wisely) but being honest, what evidence is there that this particular crew of TPTB can handle an established 'ship sensitively?!

It might be that with two hours and an ensemble cast for the SG-1 movies, it's a lot easier to have DV. But with whole seasons (hopefully? - undecided) of SGA to go, it's a lot more difficult and dangerous a prospect. Put bluntly, if they screw it up, they've got a lot less scope for damage limitation.

I put it negatively like that because that's probably the way they see it in terms of SGA, whereas DV is a much lesser gamble in some respects... SGA is only just going into Season 4 and resolving 'ships quickly isn't really an efficient way to get to a second 10 season run. Depressing but true.

kay x

[poundpuppy29]

Thanks Stef thanks Kales I didn't make it I just snagged it Hehehe.

Hey all
I started a couple of games in the fun and games section of gateworld forum check them out
this is the ship one.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40347
this is the men of Stargate
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...51#post6291251
I made a women one
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40346
I made a slasher one too
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40348

[Stef]

Nice one poundpuppy - sorry I only looked just now there! Speaking of new banners Stef, yours is pretty too.

Maybe it has something to do with SG-1 being near the end (of the tv incarnation at least). 'Ships are much easier to handle being established when they're in a film time scale, if they are going to establish them anyway.

'Ships - speaking generally, there are exceptions - are much harder to maintain as established without dulling the characters on a one hour/week level. Great writing can do it, and good variety of focus in an ensemble show (basically it not being constantly about them, limiting screen time devoted to a fic and using it wisely) but being honest, what evidence is there that this particular crew of TPTB can handle an established 'ship sensitively?!

It might be that with two hours and an ensemble cast for the SG-1 movies, it's a lot easier to have DV. But with whole seasons (hopefully? - undecided) of SGA to go, it's a lot more difficult and dangerous a prospect. Put bluntly, if they screw it up, they've got a lot less scope for damage limitation.

I put it negatively like that because that's probably the way they see it in terms of SGA, whereas DV is a much lesser gamble in some respects... SGA is only just going into Season 4 and resolving 'ships quickly isn't really an efficient way to get to a second 10 season run. Depressing but true.

kay x

You raised some good points, but I thought that SG-1 didn't actually know that they were going to be cancelled until halfway through the filming of season 10 (isn't the first episode that was scripted with that knowledge that the show was ending, the second to last episode?). So, there have been plenty of decent DV scenes that were included, not knowing the show's run would be limited to the end of the season.

Of course, I think it helps that SG-1 is infinitely better at character development. I mean, we've gotten more development for Vala this season than we have for Sheppard, Teyla, and Ronon in all three seasons combined!

I think the type of ship that DV is adds a different and interesting element. Because, on one hand, I could see this relationship continuing the way it is for season after season, while it slowly develops and matures. Right now, although I like to see it as romantic, there is definitely a foundation of friendship between them that I think could work just as well even if the show weren't ending now. The only thing we might have seen more of was Vala's relationships with the other teammates, perhaps splitting her up from Daniel more often. But see, I could totally see these two having this kind of unspoken relationship on the show.

The thing that bugs me about SGA is that they seem to think creating an emotionally rich relationship is a bad thing. The biggest/most blatant ship they seem to have (that they're actually writing for...even if unintentionally) is McShep...and their relationship is definitely based on the more comical side of things. As much as I love many of the dynamics of the show, I feel like most of the relationships/friendships (as much fun as they may be) only touch the surface. That's the great thing about DV, that they can do that comical side, but there's also something deeper there that makes the relationship more dynamic and special.

Geez, waking up from a nap certainly gets me going

-Stef

[Stef]

Oh, and nice games, poundpuppy29. I voted! And I managed to spread a little love for DV and Sam/Vala ( )

[Kales]

Thanks Stef thanks Kales I didn't make it I just snagged it Hehehe.

Hey all
I started a couple of games in the fun and games section of gateworld forum check them out
this is the ship one.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40347
this is the men of Stargate
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...51#post6291251
I made a women one
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40346
I made a slasher one too
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40348

Poundpuppy I love these! Subscribed and replied. Thanks!

kay x

[Anjirika]

You know I agree that SG1 had better character development than SGA...I mean, in the first three years think of all we knew about the chartacter. We knew about Jack and his son and his resolution with Sarah. We knew about Sam and her dad and her issues with him. We knew about Daniel and how is parents died and how he grew up and we knew about Teal'c and his family....

...hell even with Vala we knew that she had been a goa'uld at one point (which is true) and that she lies to keep getting hurt...

...and in SGA what do we have. Spoilers for recent eppies.

Spoiler:

Weir: was with Simon, now not. A diplomat who doesn't like football and doesn't agree with selling weapons. Doesn't think that men and women can be just friends.
Sheppard: black mark in afganistan, tried to save a friend, was married once, doesn't think of anyone in Atlantis in a romantic way (he's lying!)
Rodney: Has a sister, hates citrus... er, thats it?
Teyla: most if not all of her blood family is dead....that's it.
Ronan: Staeda...to much info but that was a bloody good episode.
Carson: Well, he's dead. He has a mum who loves him, he's scottish, is afraid of Atlantean technology.... what else?
Ford: Had grandparents and a cousin..not parents to speak of....and that's it...

*sigh*

I love our D/V shippy-ness....brings back the Zen from the chaos of Atlantis....though it's interesting to note that the character we know the most about is becoming recurring.....

[Kales]

You raised some good points, but I thought that SG-1 didn't actually know that they were going to be cancelled until halfway through the filming of season 10 (isn't the first episode that was scripted with that knowledge that the show was ending, the second to last episode?). So, there have been plenty of decent DV scenes that were included, not knowing the show's run would be limited to the end of the season.

*blush* Didn't consider this. Hehe, but could still be that getting cancelled meant they're going to push the 'ship into established or UST-canon (much like There But By The Grace Of God more or less did for Sam/Jack) in the last ep, which I don't think they would have done if there'd been a Season 11.

Of course, I think it helps that SG-1 is infinitely better at character development. I mean, we've gotten more development for Vala this season than we have for Sheppard, Teyla, and Ronon in all three seasons combined!

Wrong thread, so I won't start ranting on this rather INFURIATING issue. All I will say is that the first rule of writing to give a character DEPTH is to sketch out - at least - a basic history. Oh fury. Also, just a little note - SG-1 is also much better at implying off-screen friendships, whereas SGA seems very work-oriented in its portrayal of dynamics. There's a level of comfort between characters that often isn't there and it can't be blamed on longevity: Vala and Cam are friends with the others and there's an implied off-screen time spent there, and they've been in SG-1 for less time than SGA's been running...

I think the type of ship that DV is adds a different and interesting element. Because, on one hand, I could see this relationship continuing the way it is for season after season, while it slowly develops and matures. Right now, although I like to see it as romantic, there is definitely a foundation of friendship between them that I think could work just as well even if the show weren't ending now. The only thing we might have seen more of was Vala's relationships with the other teammates, perhaps splitting her up from Daniel more often. But see, I could totally see these two having this kind of unspoken relationship on the show.

Hehe ditto - I could see them going on for years Makes me all the more sad about the cancellation. On the upside, it may have made them amp up the 'shippy elements in prep for actual 'shipping - on set rewrites, re-edits to fit into the 20 ep schedule... I read in an interview they announced the cancellation at the 200th ep party (MS was swearing at scifi for their rubbish timing), so there would have been time.

The thing that bugs me about SGA is that they seem to think creating an emotionally rich relationship is a bad thing. The biggest/most blatant ship they seem to have (that they're actually writing for...even if unintentionally) is McShep...and their relationship is definitely based on the more comical side of things. As much as I love many of the dynamics of the show, I feel like most of the relationships/friendships (as much fun as they may be) only touch the surface. That's the great thing about DV, that they can do that comical side, but there's also something deeper there that makes the relationship more dynamic and special.

Agreed completely. It all feels very ... not superficial, wrong word, but ... shallow is also the wrong word ... skimmy. Yep, that's it. Almost as if we're only seeing the poorer part of their interactions, whereas with SG-1 and DV we're seeing the richest part - the part that's representative of everything else. SGA hasn't nailed that tone yet and still manages - except in cases of exceptional acting more than anything else *cough SPARKY cough* - to seem ... restrained, showing us the professional side of a relationship and leaving us to guess the rest.

kay x

[Anjirika]

Agreed completely. It all feels very ... not superficial, wrong word, but ... shallow is also the wrong word ... skimmy. Yep, that's it. Almost as if we're only seeing the poorer part of their interactions, whereas with SG-1 and DV we're seeing the richest part - the part that's representative of everything else. SGA hasn't nailed that tone yet and still manages - except in cases of exceptional acting more than anything else *cough SPARKY cough* - to seem ... restrained, showing us the professional side of a relationship and leaving us to guess the rest.

kay x

So true...we see the real interaction between Vala and Daniel, just exactly how we see the real interaction between John and Elizabeth. The true concern, the loving looks- even in the angry moments it hurts a little more because they are so close.... and I'm sorry in D/V's case its scripted and with Sparky it's scripted too- I mean TPTB choose to put them together, to say certain things to flirt with each other... so IMHO Sparky isn't restrained just confined (within their professional boundaries) but to me it's perfectly obvious where THEIR affections lie....

[Kales]

You know I agree that SG1 had better character development than SGA...I mean, in the first three years think of all we knew about the chartacter. We knew about Jack and his son and his resolution with Sarah. We knew about Sam and her dad and her issues with him. We knew about Daniel and how is parents died and how he grew up and we knew about Teal'c and his family....

...hell even with Vala we knew that she had been a goa'uld at one point (which is true) and that she lies to keep getting hurt...

...and in SGA what do we have. Spoilers for recent eppies.

Spoiler:

Weir: was with Simon, now not. A diplomat who doesn't like football and doesn't agree with selling weapons. Doesn't think that men and women can be just friends.
Sheppard: black mark in afganistan, tried to save a friend, was married once, doesn't think of anyone in Atlantis in a romantic way (he's lying!)
Rodney: Has a sister, hates citrus... er, thats it?
Teyla: most if not all of her blood family is dead....that's it.
Ronan: Staeda...to much info but that was a bloody good episode.
Carson: Well, he's dead. He has a mum who loves him, he's scottish, is afraid of Atlantean technology.... what else?
Ford: Had grandparents and a cousin..not parents to speak of....and that's it...

*sigh*

I love our D/V shippy-ness....brings back the Zen from the chaos of Atlantis....though it's interesting to note that the character we know the most about is becoming recurring.....

Quick addition to this - if Shep/Jack/Cam are all supposed to be almost parallel roles/cut from the same Air Force mould, then Shep's getting a raw deal on the tragic past portion. Spoilers for Avalon

Spoiler:

I know they had to give Cam a decent backstory to make him fit in etc, showcase him and all that but still - Avalon Pts I & II were almost a perfect introduction to him. Jack had ... *struggles for name of season one ep* Oh, the one with the crystals, yellow field and Charlie. If 'Phantoms' is Shep's version, SGA are falling short.

To topic... CB's intro ep (yeah, they didn't know it at the time, I know)

Spoiler:

Prometheus Unbound, also a pretty much flawless character sketch that would have stayed a classic even if she hadn't come back. Said everything that needed to be said without boring exposition, showed comedy and depth, history and present ... Downright perfect guest performance, even if they hadn't brought her back.

*screams in frustration* Where's that sort of subtlety and ease with characterisation in SGA?!?!?! I know it's Claudia Black and she's immensely talented, and was on a screen with Michael Shanks so her performance was even better, but still! Even they need half decent writing to work with (well, maybe. Honestly, TPTB have been so good to them we don't really know how they'd do with less than par writing). And JF, TH, DH, JM, RL etc etc are obviously ferociously talented. Sometimes watching Atlantis feels like watching someone through cage bars in that they can clearly do so much more than they're being given, whereas CB and MS for example are so effortless and given room to play their parts in the way that works best.

Where TPTB seem to be getting great at this subtle characterisation - showing rather than dictating - on SG-1, it's just not clicking on SGA. Eps like The Powers That Be for Vala and ... does anyone remember the ep title - the Gamekeeper, S2 maybe? Sam and Daniel in virtual reality, watching his parents die in the museum. Even normal par eps like Scorched Earth for Daniel and Intruders for Vala that illustrate them rather than lecture us about them... There's no Atlantis parallels. It's either wham!Exposition, Feature Made of History or totally bottled. Don't get me wrong, I loved The Real World, but as for Elizabeth's past, it felt like a bit of an undersell, being so self-contained as it was. Common Ground was better on that front- the showing rather than tell, but it's the exception. With SG-1, that's the rule.

I'm both yay!TPTB and *head, wall*TPTB in this post, I'm afraid ... It's frustrating that they do Dala so painfully well but can't transfer that sort of subtlety.

*feels better having ranted that*

kay x

[poundpuppy29]

Hey all
I started a couple of games in the fun and games section of gateworld forum check them out
this is the ship one.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40347
this is the men of Stargate
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...51#post6291251
I made a women one
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40346
I made a slasher one too
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=40348

I started four monsters lol. I am going to have problems if all my ships make to the end I don't have to choose between them yet but D&V are first in my heart.

[Stef]

Spoiler:

Weir: was with Simon, now not. A diplomat who doesn't like football and doesn't agree with selling weapons. Doesn't think that men and women can be just friends.
Sheppard: black mark in afganistan, tried to save a friend, was married once, doesn't think of anyone in Atlantis in a romantic way (he's lying!)
Rodney: Has a sister, hates citrus... er, thats it?
Teyla: most if not all of her blood family is dead....that's it.
Ronan: Staeda...to much info but that was a bloody good episode.
Carson: Well, he's dead. He has a mum who loves him, he's scottish, is afraid of Atlantean technology.... what else?
Ford: Had grandparents and a cousin..not parents to speak of....and that's it...

I like how you broke down the characters' backstories, especially Rodney's and Carson's. It's funny....but also tragic, because those are literally the only things we know about characters we've been watching for almost 3 years or 60 episodes (less for Ronon). Oh, and don't forget these valuable insights...

Spoiler:

Ronon had a fiance that died
Carson had turtles that probably died
Teyla had some old lady she was close to die
Sheppard had a friend in Afghanistan that died

Wrong thread, so I won't start ranting on this rather INFURIATING issue. All I will say is that the first rule of writing to give a character DEPTH is to sketch out - at least - a basic history. Oh fury. Also, just a little note - SG-1 is also much better at implying off-screen friendships, whereas SGA seems very work-oriented in its portrayal of dynamics. There's a level of comfort between characters that often isn't there and it can't be blamed on longevity: Vala and Cam are friends with the others and there's an implied off-screen time spent there, and they've been in SG-1 for less time than SGA's been running...


Agreed completely. It all feels very ... not superficial, wrong word, but ... shallow is also the wrong word ... skimmy. Yep, that's it. Almost as if we're only seeing the poorer part of their interactions, whereas with SG-1 and DV we're seeing the richest part - the part that's representative of everything else. SGA hasn't nailed that tone yet and still manages - except in cases of exceptional acting more than anything else *cough SPARKY cough* - to seem ... restrained, showing us the professional side of a relationship and leaving us to guess the rest.

kay x

ITA. While I enjoy Sparky, McShep, and Shex on SGA, I honestly enjoy every pairing between the 5 teammates on SG-1 (and to a greater degree). For SGA, it wasn't until the first half of season 3 that we even got any team bonding. Then compare it with Cam and Vala's first six episodes. We even got basketball! I mean, like you said, it looks like they hang out when they're not on missions. Or how about in "Momento Mori" when Mitchell suggests they go to that rib joint or whatever....which implies that this isn't the first time they've gotten together for dinner off the base.

The thing with SGA is that I like one or two couples/pairings and then am blah about everything else. While I obviously love DV the most, I am just as excited for the Cam/Vala scenes in "Bounty" or the Sam/Vala scenes that are supposed to pop up in a future episode. And it's not just the Vala relationships (because I do also like her with Teal'c), but I really enjoy the brother/sister-type of relationship between Cam/Sam and the friendship between Daniel/Sam/Teal'c.

There is just a huge difference in the way these shows (and ships) are being written. I mean, you'd think, if anything, the writers would LEARN from their mistakes.

And I agree about Sparky vs Dala. I feel that most of the sparks and shippy moments that occur between Weir and Sheppard is mostly due to the potrayers rather than the text. There is usually not a lot of "shippy" dialogue in the scripts themselves, instead, those moments are found in the way JF and TH act around each other and/or the looks they share. Whereas with DV, we get many a scripted moments that deal with their relationship (whether friendship or otherwise). We get them opening up with one another (Counterstrike), we get vocalization of their concerns (Momento Mori, The Quest 2), we get sweet moments of companionship and understanding (The Shroud), and we get plain old fun (Company of Thieves, The Pegasus Project). Obviously, this couple wouldn't work without the chemistry between CB and MS...but in addition to that, we do actually get verification...it isn't all in our heads or percieved with our over-analytical minds.

Whew!! That was a loooong one. Sorry for anyone who's eyes are screaming after reading that

Time to take more Vitamin C, drink some more juice, and head off to bed. See you guys tomorrow!

-Stef

[Padfoot_001]

Not long to go now, so excited. All I do is sleep, wake up early and everyone will be frantically talking about the new eppy! WOOT!

Fingers crossed that I dont have to go to the Cam/Vala thread to get pics and info, because hopefully everyone will be going crazy in here too. Because its going to be a GREAT Danny/Vala ep ... isn't it!!!!!!!

Lol, staying positive, so far week has been farely good ... will not be disappointed! he he he

[hopalong]

I know that logic dictates that they can't ship Cam/Vala with six episodes left but lest we all forget the 7/Chakotay fiasco at the end of Voyager. They sorta built a little romance/ attraction in at the beginning, let it drop for 3-4 seasons and then *BAM* in the last three episodes they're together...

...I still have hope though...I still have hope that TPTB on SG1 can write a ship well...

...on another note ...

400 posts

WHOOOO!

Congratulations on 400 Posts!

[Kales]

*Looks around frantically* Where are you all??!?!? You need to be here. Otherwise i'll go into threads I don't want to and then click spoiler tags and it would be bad. *Whimper*

*Box of hankies with "SEND WILLPOWER" written on...

Yeah, Stef, I agree - we get verification on our ship, we sit for days after eps congratulating TPTB on how well they did with the characters/dynamics this week:

1. It shows we assume they had something to do with it
2. It's just more enjoyable.

I don't think the SGA people realise that - at least for me - in recent eps my being a 'shipper has actually taken away from eps for me because of this denial/ ignoring thing they have. To explain, when I watch SG-1 (Like in .... 7 hours *bounces*) I love the 'shippy moments and I watch for them, but not to the extent of having to look so hard that I get a bit 'meh/blah' about the whole ep. With eps like The Ark and Submersion for SGA, I've been feeling a bit blah because of that. It's more than llikely a mistake on MY part than TPTB, but I can't help but blame them for suppressing dynamics and leading me into it - especially when I watch SG-1, "Squeee" my heart out but enjoy the whole thing much more.

kay x

[DJgirl]

*Looks around frantically* Where are you all??!?!? You need to be here. Otherwise i'll go into threads I don't want to and then click spoiler tags and it would be bad. *Whimper*

*Box of hankies with "SEND WILLPOWER" written on...

Yeah, Stef, I agree - we get verification on our ship, we sit for days after eps congratulating TPTB on how well they did with the characters/dynamics this week:

1. It shows we assume they had something to do with it
2. It's just more enjoyable.

I don't think the SGA people realise that - at least for me - in recent eps my being a 'shipper has actually taken away from eps for me because of this denial/ ignoring thing they have. To explain, when I watch SG-1 (Like in .... 7 hours *bounces*) I love the 'shippy moments and I watch for them, but not to the extent of having to look so hard that I get a bit 'meh/blah' about the whole ep. With eps like The Ark and Submersion for SGA, I've been feeling a bit blah because of that. It's more than llikely a mistake on MY part than TPTB, but I can't help but blame them for suppressing dynamics and leading me into it - especially when I watch SG-1, "Squeee" my heart out but enjoy the whole thing much more.

kay x

Good Day All!! I am here now. The first half hour of work is always crazy and hard for me to post.

I can't wait for the new episode. I will have to watch it tomorrow, but I can't wait to start hearing about the episode. You guys better be in here later telling me everything!!!!!!

As for SGA, I love the show, am a Sheppard/Weir Shipper, but I agree with what most of you were saying. It has taken these last couple of episodes to finally feel like 1. They are a team and 2. That I finally know even a little bit about them. Season 1 of Atlantis was very slow moving. I didn't feel like they were a team and there was something missing. Season 2 showed that they started to care for each other on a friendship level. They finally started gelling together. Now that season 3 is here, I think it has been great. The team dynamic is totally there but back stories are so few and far between it is hard to really know the character. I know SG-1 had the backstory of the movie to fall back on but I thought character developement started very early. They felt like a team almost immediately. It only took me a couple of episodes(As opposed to seasons) to really love the team and each of the character and feel that I really knew them.

Maybe with SG-1's television run ending, TPTB will finally give the attention that SGA deserves and write some great backstory stuff!!!!!!