Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Starship Trooper]

I disagree. We saw Jack leave Daniel on Within the Serpents Grasp/Serpents Lair, and he was going to blow up the ship in the Enkaran (sp?) world even though Daniel was onboard - which shows that he's capable of staying level headed and military minded when it comes to the boys. Jack sees them like his brothers, but Sam sure ain't like his sister. I'm sure he'd hesitate and protest, and do what he could, but I don't think he would stand there and die with them.

I actually had thought of that incident before posting, but Daniel was, for all intents and purposes, already as good as dead. And Jack only left after Daniel said, "Get out of here! You're just going to blow up with the other ship anyway. What difference does it make? Go! Just go! I'll stay—and watch your back." They all thought they were going to die anyway taking out both ships without any means of escape - it was a suicide mission. Jack knew Daniel was right, and if it wasn't for the sarcophagus, Daniel would've died. In Sam's case, it wasn't like she was already mortally wounded and Jack was just staying for the sake of it, neither of them knew what would happen to them when they got caught.

Plus, Upgrades was a few years later. Plenty of time to form stronger bonds.

[fems]

I disagree. We saw Jack leave Daniel on Within the Serpents Grasp/Serpents Lair, and he was going to blow up the ship in the Enkaran (sp?) world even though Daniel was onboard - which shows that he's capable of staying level headed and military minded when it comes to the boys. Jack sees them like his brothers, but Sam sure ain't like his sister. I'm sure he'd hesitate and protest, and do what he could, but I don't think he would stand there and die with them.

But in the first case Daniel was already dying due to his injuries and they both figured all four of them would die aboard the ships anyway (not to mention that this is in the first year). It's been a while since I last saw the Enkaran episode but wasn't Jack already annoyed with Daniel's attitude there? So, he probably figured Daniel had made his choice in spite of Jack's warnings about what would happen...

I know Jack also left Teal'c on Vorash after he was struck by a staff blast, thinking Teal'c was dead and having to get the hell out of there himself but again I think the situation is quite different from D&C: Teal'c disobeyed his orders and took Jack along with him in harm's way all to do his Jaffa revenge thing.

In the last two cases both Daniel and Teal'c disobeyed his orders and put themselves (and Jack too, in Teal'c's case; not to mention that their presence on Vorash might have stopped Sam and Jacob from performing their end of the deal and thus Apophis getting away) in harm's way by doing so, therefore Jack as the commander has to make the harsh decisions of leaving them behind even if it means their death.

Sam, on the other hand, was only aboard Apophis' ship (in Upgrades) because Jack as the commander had insisted on doing the mission with their super fancy armbands (and he has already gotten them into trouble over O'Malley's too and then put the blame on Sam when Hammond asked about it). If Jack had been a responsible commander and not let the alien stuff influence him, or even just listened to his superior then Sam wouldn't have been trapped behind the forcefield in the first place.

So, I'm not entirely convinced Jack wouldn't have done the same for Daniel and Teal'c if they had been in Sam's position in Upgrades, but while the reasoning behind that would be similar (caring a great deal about them as they're his brothers/best friends) it wasn't because he was in love with them.

I did, however, find it interesting that of all people Daniel was the one willing to leave both Sam and Jack on that ship while he and Teal'c got to safety...

[fems]

I actually had thought of that incident before posting, but Daniel was, for all intents and purposes, already as good as dead. And Jack only left after Daniel said, "Get out of here! You're just going to blow up with the other ship anyway. What difference does it make? Go! Just go! I'll stay—and watch your back." They all thought they were going to die anyway taking out both ships without any means of escape - it was a suicide mission. Jack knew Daniel was right, and if it wasn't for the sarcophagus, Daniel would've died. In Sam's case, it wasn't like she was already mortally wounded and Jack was just staying for the sake of it, neither of them knew what would happen to them when they got caught.

Plus, Upgrades was a few years later. Plenty of time to form stronger bonds.

Um, hadn't they planted explosives that would go boom any minute?

[Jack4Sam]

Well, way to suck the romance out of it. ^ and ^^^.

[Starship Trooper]

Um, hadn't they planted explosives that would go boom any minute?

Oh yeah, that's so true! Forgot about that for a minute!

I always get so focused on the fact that the Jaffa are nearly around the corner and that seems to be their main concern at the moment.

[Starship Trooper]

Well, way to suck the romance out of it. ^ and ^^.

Nah!

Jack just had additional motivations when it came to Sam.

[Jack4Sam]

Nah!

Jack just had additional motivations when it came to Sam.

No! He loves Sam and only Sam! He hates everyone else, including Daniel and Teal'c. HATES THEM. Wants them DEAD. Wants their family DEAD. Wants their houses BURNED TO THE GROUND.

Pardon me, I have a fever and may be a tad delirious.

[Scofield]

[ErikaMariia]

The force shield scene...
Daniel and Teal'c couldn't go back inside because there was also a force shield. so in fact there was no way for Jack to get out either. didn't they know that?

[Kimberley Jackson]

Yeah, I completely agree with you (except that I never really enjoy seasons 9 and 10 or even AoT, regardless of separating it from the original SG-1). One of the things from JAG and even NCIS that always bother me is that there are so many creative licenses, Stargate SG-1 was much better in their portrayal in my opinion. Plus, it actually gives a good excuse for some of the things they didn't/couldn't do, one of them obviously being the Sam/Jack relationship.

Even in JAG Mac used to have an affair with her CO, who also recommended her for the JAG course (or whatever it's called) and I was very disappointed with how they handled the whole thing. Yeah, there were some repercussions later on but only because of a case taking place in the present and being complicated by said former CO's presence during a murder. Not to mention how my opinion of Mac was affected, since she was kinda similar to pilot Sam in her attitude about women serving in the military and specifically the Marine Corps and then later on she's all like "oh yeah, I also had an affair with my CO but whatever". Totally ruined what was left of her character in regards to her military career, in my opinion.

Actually, the pentagon also played a heavy role in the creation of those two shows that you mentioned as well - J.A.G. more than NCIS. It even went so far for one episode (Tribunal in Season 7) which dealt with trialing a terrorist that's basically a personifical of Bin Laden, to closely work with the writers to assure the procedure would be presented in a way the pentagon wanted the public to see it - since those real life Tribunals are not allowed to be filmed.

So J.A.G. was the first show to rise the question of government propaganda in entertainment programs in the field of cultural studies. It isn't the only one - especially not after 9/11 - but it was the first show that took it so far that sociologists and cultural scientists actually started to question the constitutionality of such an intervention. It was never publicly dealt with of course, because most people just don't read scientific publication, but for anybody interested, there's a book by Stacy Takacs ("Terrorism TV: Popular Entertainment in Post-9/11") in which she takes a closer look at those shows that have military/intelligence/crime related settings.

I agree with the statement that J.A.G. was very inconsistent in their dealing with offenses (especially those of insubordination, disobeying orders, etc.). Esp. Harmon Rabb has a history of consequently disobeying orders when he sees fit, and there are hardly any consequences - while the show at the same time passionately judges those soldiers who do show even the slightest hint of misdemeanor... (getting discharged for taking a secret 5-minute break for smoking while on duty? Give me a break!)

But overall the show took such an uncritical, pro-military stance that the inaccuracies actually benefitted the image of the Armed Forces in the public, and that is the defining factor.

"Alias" is another example of a highly inaccurate show, that managed to portray the work of the CIA/NSA/intelligence in such a positive light that the pentagon even used the face of its main actress Jennifer Garner (Agent Sydney Bristow) for a promotional recruitment spot. As long as you portray things overly positive you seem to have a lot of leeway.

But as soon as Aliens (conspiracy theories) or relationships that might be considered problematic are involved, that has the potential to shed a negative light on their work - or worse, even create a counter-military stance in the public.

It's a fact, btw, that the pentagon and CIA are more interested in hollywood entertainment and its portrayal of government work, than they are in news stations or shows like f.ex. The Daily Show. They created an own section dedicated to monitor hollywood movie and television scripts.

So, I don't know... for me as a German, that is really shocking, because something like that would be unthinkable here in Germany. Ever since WWII (and all the propaganda there) it is absolutely forbidden for the government to get involved in media productions, let alone rewrite scripts to their liking (except documentaries which require access to certain military facilities), and especially in fiction. There wouldn't even be a discussion about it being censorship over here.
But that, I guess, is a cultural thing. In the U.S. it's apparently a commong practice. It just shocked me, that even Stargate - a sci-fi show - was subjected to those strict regulations.

[Everlovin]

The force shield scene...
Daniel and Teal'c couldn't go back inside because there was also a force shield. so in fact there was no way for Jack to get out either. didn't they know that?

Who's to know where the force shields are. They probably said "duh" later, but at the moment, who was to know?

[fems]

Actually, the pentagon also played a heavy role in the creation of those two shows that you mentioned as well - J.A.G. more than NCIS. It even went so far for one episode (Tribunal in Season 7) which dealt with trialing a terrorist that's basically a personifical of Bin Laden, to closely work with the writers to assure the procedure would be presented in a way the pentagon wanted the public to see it - since those real life Tribunals are not allowed to be filmed.

So J.A.G. was the first show to rise the question of government propaganda in entertainment programs in the field of cultural studies. It isn't the only one - especially not after 9/11 - but it was the first show that took it so far that sociologists and cultural scientists actually started to question the constitutionality of such an intervention. It was never publicly dealt with of course, because most people just don't read scientific publication, but for anybody interested, there's a book by Stacy Takacs ("Terrorism TV: Popular Entertainment in Post-9/11") in which she takes a closer look at those shows that have military/intelligence/crime related settings.

I agree with the statement that J.A.G. was very inconsistent in their dealing with offenses (especially those of insubordination, disobeying orders, etc.). Esp. Harmon Rabb has a history of consequently disobeying orders when he sees fit, and there are hardly any consequences - while the show at the same time passionately judges those soldiers who do show even the slightest hint of misdemeanor... (getting discharged for taking a secret 5-minute break for smoking while on duty? Give me a break!)

But overall the show took such an uncritical, pro-military stance that the inaccuracies actually benefitted the image of the Armed Forces in the public, and that is the defining factor.

"Alias" is another example of a highly inaccurate show, that managed to portray the work of the CIA/NSA/intelligence in such a positive light that the pentagon even used the face of its main actress Jennifer Garner (Agent Sydney Bristow) for a promotional recruitment spot. As long as you portray things overly positive you seem to have a lot of leeway.

But as soon as Aliens (conspiracy theories) or relationships that might be considered problematic are involved, that has the potential to shed a negative light on their work - or worse, even create a counter-military stance in the public.

It's a fact, btw, that the pentagon and CIA are more interested in hollywood entertainment and its portrayal of government work, than they are in news stations or shows like f.ex. The Daily Show. They created an own section dedicated to monitor hollywood movie and television scripts.

So, I don't know... for me as a German, that is really shocking, because something like that would be unthinkable here in Germany. Ever since WWII (and all the propaganda there) it is absolutely forbidden for the government to get involved in media productions, let alone rewrite scripts to their liking (except documentaries which require access to certain military facilities), and especially in fiction. There wouldn't even be a discussion about it being censorship over here.
But that, I guess, is a cultural thing. In the U.S. it's apparently a commong practice. It just shocked me, that even Stargate - a sci-fi show - was subjected to those strict regulations.

Yes, I know they were supposedly also involved with those shows and the overly positive image of the military is undoubtedly a result. However, the sort of errors and inconsistencies I mentioned are actually things that make me think twice and totally ruins any positive feelings I had about such military advisers being involved in the show. They do themselves a great injustice and kinda make themselves look ridiculous for being associated with and presumably approving certain plot lines/episodes.

And yeah, don't get me started on Rabb who can do no wrong and yet goes against so many orders, rules&regulations it's incredibly frustrating (it's possible my feelings on the subject are because I rewatched all of JAG in a few weeks, which just highlighted everything that was wrong with the characters, inconsistencies and certain story lines).

I didn't know that about Alias, by the way. Would never have guessed from some of the fantastical story lines they use there, ha. Kind of embarrassing to know the CIA/Pentagon were involved with some of it and presumably approved stuff, in my opinion.

Anyway, I like the involvement of the USAF in Stargate SG-1 and that is also one of the major reasons I seriously dislike the last two seasons. I know RDA was a stickler for adhering to some of the USAF rules/guidelines and that's why he was made an honorary AF brigadier general but to me it almost seemed as if the military advisers left the show around the same time he did!

I know there are also things on the show that aren't like RL AF but that's okay, because they're usually minor things (like certain ranks in certain positions, too many officers and too few enlisted, too long on one team etc etc) and the important matter (to me anyway) were realistic, especially for a sci-fi show. And if they hadn't worked with the USAF then they never could have used all the guns, planes and the awesome submarine in Continuum, just like they never would have had access to the planes and ships on JAG.

[fems]

The force shield scene...
Daniel and Teal'c couldn't go back inside because there was also a force shield. so in fact there was no way for Jack to get out either. didn't they know that?

Who's to know where the force shields are. They probably said "duh" later, but at the moment, who was to know?

Yes and Jack never even knew, because he stopped the minute he realized Sam wasn't on his heels. It would seem he had made up his mind about staying with her if he couldn't save her the minute he saw her on the other side and understood the problem. He tried to go back for her but then his armband stopped working. At that time he never even considered checking the exit or if there were more force shields that might prevent him from going anywhere.

I guess one could argue that he never would have made it out alive anyway since the countdown had about a minute and a half left, if I'm not mistaken. Well, that is assuming the explosion they had been expecting would have taken out the entire ship in one go, but for some reason it was delayed or perhaps it were the actual force shields that kept it contained for a bit and then (upon malfunctioning) allowed them to escape alive.

At least, that's my interpretation of things and I know from reading many fics where this incident (and often the Edora one too) is used in a court-martial or threat of court-martial against Sam and/or Jack that not everyone agrees on this or even thinks about that part.

[IamDKScully]

I think TPTB consulted the Air Force because they wanted the show to be realistic in as many aspects as possible. They actually had a lot of leeway when you consider they were working with a Top Secret facility and aliens and such. But, they wanted to stay true to the branch of the military they were trying to represent (hard won and hard kept military fans can be really critical of a military show just like doctors are of medical dramas or lawyers of legal dramas -- I work for an attorney and haven't been able to bring myself to watch many legal dramas in the last 10 years ).

I agree that the boundaries gave them a chance to see just how to bring this relationship about. Also, many of the writers and directors have admitted in the DVD commentaries that they didn't want it to turn into the "Jack and Sam Show." So even though some of them come off as total shippers, they are very clear that it was never gonna happen.

[Kimberley Jackson]

I agree that the boundaries gave them a chance to see just how to bring this relationship about. Also, many of the writers and directors have admitted in the DVD commentaries that they didn't want it to turn into the "Jack and Sam Show." So even though some of them come off as total shippers, they are very clear that it was never gonna happen.

Agreed, and frankly, I'm grateful for that. Stargate is actually one of the very few shows that managed to deal with a relationship in a very tasteful, mature way without turning the show into a soap opera (The X-Files being the other one for me I assume, you know that one, IamDKScully? ). Because of the fact that they didn't have the option to let it happen, they managed to grow the relationship into a really strong bond.

I just hate that, when RDA left the show, they didn't resolve this, because that would have been their perfect window without turning it into the Sam and Jack show. But I think we all have similar feelings about that...