Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Seahen]

I just can't agree with that. The Air Force can give command to whoever they want for whatever reason, especially someone who, while of the same rank, has vastly more experience and is far more qualified for the command. There's nothing inappropriate about that. In fact, if I were part of the SGC I'd feel a lot better about that than leaving a green as grass commander (with no off-world or special forces/ground combat training or experience that we can see) being given command of the number 1 frontline team over it's former commander. I'd have very little confidence in that kind of leadership.

And I don't think being in command of her own team (SG1 or otherwise) would have interfered with her commitment to Jack. I mean a couple of years later she took a command in another galaxey. I just can't see Sam selling herself short like that or being happy with being less than the best she can be. And the great thing about her relationship with Jack is that he not only understands that about her; he's proud of it. He would never stand for her saying, "Oh no I'd rather be with you than command my own team."

No spoilers, just OT:

Spoiler:

Actually, as a F-302 squadron commander, Cam had quite a bit of experience in command, more so than Sam in fact. She was in charge of a small (all be it very important) 3 person team, Cam was in charge of an entire squadron. Being a squadron commander (especially a flying squadron) is huge in the AF. So while he may not have had the same off-world experience as Sam, he had his own command experience and was more than qualified to be an SG team leader. Air Force officers are leaders first, specialty second. I've seen pilots placed in command of some strange things that they had no experience at and most of them did amazing jobs.

Also, while he was the same rank as Sam, he had more time in grade (flashbacks show he was a Lt. Col during the events of Lost City, while Sam was still a Major). As long as Cam was on the team, he was the ranking individual. For Sam to be placed in charge, Cam would have had to have been removed. Sam voluntarily came back to SG1 so I would assume she had no problem with Cam being the leader of SG-1.

That said, I know a lot of people hate Cam, and I can understand the frustration, that Sam deserved command and she did. It's just, in my experience, Cam's situation is more the norm, rather than the exception. Cam wasn't exactly a wet behind the ears second lieutenant. He was a seasoned Lieutenant Colonel with battle & leadership experience. He was just new to us.

Anyway, just my very unpopular feelings on the subject.

[SamJackShipper93]

That's a few short years for Jack to be promoted so fast. I'd like to see him stay at that rank for a while.

And I'm not sure I'm ready to see General Sam, even if she does have enough years in grade. I think she should remain a Colonel for a while yet.

Ditto from me.

This is Minnesota - I guarantee it doesn't even break 100 (dude, I'm dying here at like 90 and I used to live in Florida!!!). I vote swimming

In Minnesota, it doesn't need to truly break 100. The humidity makes it *feel* like well over 100. I personally can see Jack and Sam swimming, if only for the fact that there are days that you want to do absolutely nothing but be in water.

No spoilers, just OT:

Spoiler:

Actually, as a F-302 squadron commander, Cam had quite a bit of experience in command, more so than Sam in fact. She was in charge of a small (all be it very important) 3 person team, Cam was in charge of an entire squadron. Being a squadron commander (especially a flying squadron) is huge in the AF. So while he may not have had the same off-world experience as Sam, he had his own command experience and was more than qualified to be an SG team leader. Air Force officers are leaders first, specialty second. I've seen pilots placed in command of some strange things that they had no experience at and most of them did amazing jobs.

Also, while he was the same rank as Sam, he had more time in grade (flashbacks show he was a Lt. Col during the events of Lost City, while Sam was still a Major). As long as Cam was on the team, he was the ranking individual. For Sam to be placed in charge, Cam would have had to have been removed. Sam voluntarily came back to SG1 so I would assume she had no problem with Cam being the leader of SG-1.

That said, I know a lot of people hate Cam, and I can understand the frustration, that Sam deserved command and she did. It's just, in my experience, Cam's situation is more the norm, rather than the exception. Cam wasn't exactly a wet behind the ears second lieutenant. He was a seasoned Lieutenant Colonel with battle & leadership experience. He was just new to us.

Anyway, just my very unpopular feelings on the subject.

Thank you for that. Sam's command (or lack thereof) in Seasons 9 and 10 was always a mystery to me. But now it makes more sense.

[JenniferJF]

SGU Vaguely OT about Leaving no one Behind (hoping not to start a war):

Spoiler:

I think this is one of those examples of how SGU tends to handle concepts with more depth and subtlety - generally - than the previous incarnations of the franchise. "Leave no one Behind" - while a valid concept and one which the US military does support (I recall a SAS soldier stating once that the second most amazing thing about US soldiers was that, no matter where they were and what kind of trouble they were in, they always believed some other US soldiers were about to come save their A**es and that the *most* amazing thing about them was how often they were right) - as Shannon said, it was carried to a bit of an unrealistic extreme in SG1 and SGA. Obviously, as in SGU, sometimes people do have to be left behind, and it's those sort of decisions which I'm sure haunt former commanders for years. And because with SGU - IMHO - TPTB are taking the time to really delve into the characters and spend the time on their development they didn't (or weren't) able to on the other two series, I think they are able to show this subtle difference more here.

Now, regardless of how you feel about the SGU characters and their situation and the show in general, I do think SGU has a *lot* more of the sort of quality character moments which we only got sparingly in SGA and SG1 but which were, even there, one of the reasons I love those shows.

Also, as for Sam getting promoted to General, 3-4 years is a fairly typical time to spend at one rank. Jack spent an almost absurd amount of time as a full-bird, especially given he was already one at the beginning of the series. This is especially true if you consider the breadth of assignments Sam has had not just geographically or based on importance but based on how much coordination she's had to do between various branches of the US military, foreign military personnel, and even civilians and civilian organizations, both US and international (and, you know, intergalactic), which are important considerations in high-level promotions.

EDIT: I should clarify that 3-4 years isn't *atypical* and that the 7 years isn't really absurd simply by itself but in light of the fact he'd already retired once as one and thus it was almost certainly 7+. (remember, 20-25 years *total* time is typical for time-in-service so someone who retires as a Colonel has an average of 3-4 years in each rank (even less if one started out enlisted), though the times do get longer the higher one goes.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Speaking of Jack being a colonel for 7 yrs. Ill betcha dollars to donuts. that he was probably promoted to full colonel sometime after he was free from "some sticking iraqi prison" and before the stargate movie.

[Nynaeve506]

No spoilers, just OT:

Spoiler:

Actually, as a F-302 squadron commander, Cam had quite a bit of experience in command, more so than Sam in fact. She was in charge of a small (all be it very important) 3 person team, Cam was in charge of an entire squadron. Being a squadron commander (especially a flying squadron) is huge in the AF. So while he may not have had the same off-world experience as Sam, he had his own command experience and was more than qualified to be an SG team leader. Air Force officers are leaders first, specialty second. I've seen pilots placed in command of some strange things that they had no experience at and most of them did amazing jobs.

Also, while he was the same rank as Sam, he had more time in grade (flashbacks show he was a Lt. Col during the events of Lost City, while Sam was still a Major). As long as Cam was on the team, he was the ranking individual. For Sam to be placed in charge, Cam would have had to have been removed. Sam voluntarily came back to SG1 so I would assume she had no problem with Cam being the leader of SG-1.

That said, I know a lot of people hate Cam, and I can understand the frustration, that Sam deserved command and she did. It's just, in my experience, Cam's situation is more the norm, rather than the exception. Cam wasn't exactly a wet behind the ears second lieutenant. He was a seasoned Lieutenant Colonel with battle & leadership experience. He was just new to us.

Anyway, just my very unpopular feelings on the subject.

:: standing ovation :: You said everything I wanted to say but with better examples, more details, and very wonderfully LOL. Here, here!

I really liked Cam myself

SGU Vaguely OT about Leaving no one Behind (hoping not to start a war):

Spoiler:

I think this is one of those examples of how SGU tends to handle concepts with more depth and subtlety - generally - than the previous incarnations of the franchise. "Leave no one Behind" - while a valid concept and one which the US military does support (I recall a SAS soldier stating once that the second most amazing thing about US soldiers was that, no matter where they were and what kind of trouble they were in, they always believed some other US soldiers were about to come save their A**es and that the *most* amazing thing about them was how often they were right) - as Shannon said, it was carried to a bit of an unrealistic extreme in SG1 and SGA. Obviously, as in SGU, sometimes people do have to be left behind, and it's those sort of decisions which I'm sure haunt former commanders for years. And because with SGU - IMHO - TPTB are taking the time to really delve into the characters and spend the time on their development they didn't (or weren't) able to on the other two series, I think they are able to show this subtle difference more here.

Now, regardless of how you feel about the SGU characters and their situation and the show in general, I do think SGU has a *lot* more of the sort of quality character moments which we only got sparingly in SGA and SG1 but which were, even there, one of the reasons I love those shows.

Also, as for Sam getting promoted to General, 3-4 years is a fairly typical time to spend at one rank. Jack spent an almost absurd amount of time as a full-bird, especially given he was already one at the beginning of the series. This is especially true if you consider the breadth of assignments Sam has had not just geographically or based on importance but based on how much coordination she's had to do between various branches of the US military, foreign military personnel, and even civilians and civilian organizations, both US and international (and, you know, intergalactic), which are important considerations in high-level promotions.

Also, yaaaay I'm glad other people have time to put together coherent responses.

I love you all. Off to work - thinking about S/J while I'm at it...

[JenniferJF]

Thank you for that. Sam's command (or lack thereof) in Seasons 9 and 10 was always a mystery to me. But now it makes more sense.

After that excellent explanation from Seahen, the only other thing I'd add is that it was never clear if Sam's coming back to SG1 was a PCS (permanent change of station) back from Area 51 or if it was simply a TDY (temporary duty) for the duration of the Ori situation. It's quite likely, given she'd moved on and supposedly up in her career, a PCS back into a position - even the one she'd just come from - might have raised questions and hinted at failure (because not everyone looking at it would have had the time or the knowledge to understand the situation) and a TDY as a subject matter expert/consultant might have actually been better for her career overall.

EDIT: And I realize the Air Force might have different terms for these, but I'm sure they have similar concepts.

[penjab]

SGU Vaguely OT about Leaving no one Behind (hoping not to start a war):

Spoiler:

I think this is one of those examples of how SGU tends to handle concepts with more depth and subtlety - generally - than the previous incarnations of the franchise. "Leave no one Behind" - while a valid concept and one which the US military does support (I recall a SAS soldier stating once that the second most amazing thing about US soldiers was that, no matter where they were and what kind of trouble they were in, they always believed some other US soldiers were about to come save their A**es and that the *most* amazing thing about them was how often they were right) - as Shannon said, it was carried to a bit of an unrealistic extreme in SG1 and SGA. Obviously, as in SGU, sometimes people do have to be left behind, and it's those sort of decisions which I'm sure haunt former commanders for years. And because with SGU - IMHO - TPTB are taking the time to really delve into the characters and spend the time on their development they didn't (or weren't) able to on the other two series, I think they are able to show this subtle difference more here.

Now, regardless of how you feel about the SGU characters and their situation and the show in general, I do think SGU has a *lot* more of the sort of quality character moments which we only got sparingly in SGA and SG1 but which were, even there, one of the reasons I love those shows.

Also, as for Sam getting promoted to General, 3-4 years is a fairly typical time to spend at one rank. Jack spent an almost absurd amount of time as a full-bird, especially given he was already one at the beginning of the series. This is especially true if you consider the breadth of assignments Sam has had not just geographically or based on importance but based on how much coordination she's had to do between various branches of the US military, foreign military personnel, and even civilians and civilian organizations, both US and international (and, you know, intergalactic), which are important considerations in high-level promotions.

EDIT: I should clarify that 3-4 years isn't *atypical* and that the 7 years isn't really absurd simply by itself but in light of the fact he'd already retired once as one and thus it was almost certainly 7+. (remember, 20-25 years *total* time is typical for time-in-service so someone who retires as a Colonel has an average of 3-4 years in each rank (even less if one started out enlisted), though the times do get longer the higher one goes.

Didn't he have a few black marks on his record though? That can slow down promotions considerably.

[Seahen]

After that excellent explanation from Seahen, the only other thing I'd add is that it was never clear if Sam's coming back to SG1 was a PCS (permanent change of station) back from Area 51 or if it was simply a TDY (temporary duty) for the duration of the Ori situation. It's quite likely, given she'd moved on and supposedly up in her career, a PCS back into a position - even the one she'd just come from - might have raised questions and hinted at failure (because not everyone looking at it would have had the time or the knowledge to understand the situation) and a TDY as a subject matter expert/consultant might have actually been better for her career overall.

EDIT: And I realize the Air Force might have different terms for these, but I'm sure they have similar concepts.

Just have a few minutes: Air Force has same terms! TDY and PCS. I know the Navy/Marines used TAD for TDY (Thanks JAG!). And I agree with your explanation, makes a lot of sense to me.

[JenniferJF]

Didn't he have a few black marks on his record though? That can slow down promotions considerably.

Yes, but I'd think generally having saved the planet and winning the Air Force award (name escapes me atm) he did back in Secrets would have made up for a score of problems. Granted, there was no where *to* promote him to as he couldn't be a general in that position (general officer promotions are generally political and nature and given when there's a need for a general officer) so it makes sense he'd have been a colonel that long within context. It's just that it's a mistake to assume Jack's situation is normal and that because of the time he was a Colonel Sam's being promoted to General after only 3-4 years would be odd or strange. It would depend on whether there was a position open she was wanted for that required a general officer.

[ddc]

On promotions/commands: If we assume Jack took over the Homeworld Security position from Hammond his being promoted to 3 Star finally puts him at the same rank as Hammond had when in that position. I don't see him making 4 Star though, unless the Program becomes public and they create a new Space Force (like the AF becoming a separate service when it was originally the Army Air Corps) with Jack as the Chief of Staff.

As for Sam, I think she's being groomed to take over the SGC (wherever that is now, assuming Cheyanne Mountain in the SGC Universe was BRACKed the same as the "real world" one) when Landry retires/moves to HWS. She was Acting Commander while Landry was on a temporary assignment. For now, being CO of the Hammond gives her a different type of command experience than Atlantis. I don't see it as a step down; those ships all have senior Full Colonels in command and seem to be the HWS equivalents of Navy Air Craft Carriers.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Why did Cheyenne Mountain Close down in RL?

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

I could imagine Sam taking over the SGC considering that in SG: Resistance she was promoted to general and was running it.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Too bad they couldn't combine the SGC with Homeworld Command making it Homeworld Stargate Command (HWSGC)

[JenniferJF]

On promotions/commands: If we assume Jack took over the Homeworld Security position from Hammond his being promoted to 3 Star finally puts him at the same rank as Hammond had when in that position. I don't see him making 4 Star though, unless the Program becomes public and they create a new Space Force (like the AF becoming a separate service when it was originally the Army Air Corps) with Jack as the Chief of Staff.

That's exactly it. Jack got that promotion because he was chosen as the best candidate to fill the position, the position required someone of that rank, and he was eligible for promotion to that rank. As you said, he'd only get further promotion if he was chosen to fill a position which required the rank of 4 stars instead of 3 (ie, 3 stars reporting to him. ) Promotions to general officer ranks (either from Colonel or to a higher one) aren't like other officer promotions in that they don't require the same promotion boards and procedures but are rather political in that they come more or less directly from the President (though they have to be approved by the Senate and come from a list of those eligible derived from each service) when there is an open position based on who the President (and his advisors) pick for the position.

Or, as it says here for those of you interested in gory details:

Spoiler:

General officers are nominated for promotion by the President of the United States, and confirmed by the Senate. You can't get more "political" than that. The services hold in-service promotion boards to recommend officers for general officer promotion to the President. When vacancies occur (a general officer gets promoted or retires), the President nominates officers to be promoted from these lists (with advice from the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of the applicable service, and the Service Chief of Staff/Commandant).

Like the other commissioned officer ranks, Congress limits the number of General Officers that can serve on active duty.

EDIT: For anyone interested in more details on the whole officer-promotion/time in rank or service/etc, that link also provides more information than anyone is likely to need, let alone understand

[Petra]

AGA!!!!!! *crash tackle squishy bear huggles*....welcome back....

*squishy bear huggles back* Thanks for the warm welcome! But yeah, I've been around quite a lot lately, though mostly lurking.

or maybe you've been back and I'm still just trying to get used to your new ID....

Actually I already forgot about my name change Thanks for reminding me

And speaking of old times, how is Kel'dor these days?

Young/SGU OT

Spoiler:

I don't think it's so far off that you end up with a guy like him as a Colonel. I mean, in any field you have people get promoted just because they're there long enough. It could very well be that Young hasn't ever been in a real combat command where he's ever had to make a super hard decision. Telford was in charge of the 302 pilots, I get the feeling that they didn't really expect anything to happen at Icarus and it's certainly plausible that he took the position trying to fix a career that was out the door. Besides, *most* people (career military) retire at the rank of Lt. Colonel (just as a side rant, I once didn't make it through the first chapter of a fic because they had Sam being harassed at boot camp for being the daughter of a Lt. Col at the time... the author never responded when I pointed out that it wasn't a very uncommon rank)... but I digress... so he might have been on his way out as it was.

Spoiler:

But Young has been in tough combat situations before. He had been SG team leader after all, and if he was Jack's first choice for the Destiny mission he must have been good. However something happened back when he was at the SGC that made him decide that "he didn't have it in him anymore", decline Jack's offer and take supposedly "safe" Icarus base command instead. Remember, he wasn't supposed to gate to the Destiny in the first place.

Spoiler:

I can't buy that they would allow someone with no real experience and a career in the toilet to take such an important and high level assignment just to help him rehabilitate his career. It certainly doesn't match up with the hard @$$ Jack they've been showing lately (although it does reflect a solid lack of good judgment which is another travesty of Jack's characterization we've gotten from SGU.

Spoiler:

They didn't. See above. Although that bit about no experience immidiately brings Mitchell to my mind, so again, however you want to look at it there was a precedence for it in SG-1.

And I don't think being in command of her own team (SG1 or otherwise) would have interfered with her commitment to Jack. I mean a couple of years later she took a command in another galaxey. I just can't see Sam selling herself short like that or being happy with being less than the best she can be. And the great thing about her relationship with Jack is that he not only understands that about her; he's proud of it. He would never stand for her saying, "Oh no I'd rather be with you than command my own team."

And here we finally agree. I'm with you on this 1000%.


OT for command/ranks/Mitchell (look what I started )

No spoilers, just OT:

Spoiler:

Actually, as a F-302 squadron commander, Cam had quite a bit of experience in command, more so than Sam in fact. She was in charge of a small (all be it very important) 3 person team, Cam was in charge of an entire squadron. Being a squadron commander (especially a flying squadron) is huge in the AF. So while he may not have had the same off-world experience as Sam, he had his own command experience and was more than qualified to be an SG team leader. Air Force officers are leaders first, specialty second. I've seen pilots placed in command of some strange things that they had no experience at and most of them did amazing jobs.

Also, while he was the same rank as Sam, he had more time in grade (flashbacks show he was a Lt. Col during the events of Lost City, while Sam was still a Major). As long as Cam was on the team, he was the ranking individual. For Sam to be placed in charge, Cam would have had to have been removed. Sam voluntarily came back to SG1 so I would assume she had no problem with Cam being the leader of SG-1.

That said, I know a lot of people hate Cam, and I can understand the frustration, that Sam deserved command and she did. It's just, in my experience, Cam's situation is more the norm, rather than the exception. Cam wasn't exactly a wet behind the ears second lieutenant. He was a seasoned Lieutenant Colonel with battle & leadership experience. He was just new to us.

Anyway, just my very unpopular feelings on the subject.

Spoiler:

Thanks for explaining things from the military POV. Unfortunately it doesn't change my opinion. These are details that general public doesn't know nor care about. For your average viewer it looks like this: Sam had command, her team got disbanned, then new, totally inexperienced guy came in, got the team together and made her - previous CO with tons of experience he doesn't have - serve under him. Because he's a guy and she's a woman.

My personal issues however don't have anything to do with his command experience (or lack thereof). My biggest problem is with retconning and the way Mitchell was written as extremely incompetent and everybody else as happy about it. Canon of the first 8 seasons established that you have to go through proper training even to become a member of SG team, let alone its CO...and yet somehow it didn't apply to Mitchell. As I said I don't know much about the military but I can't believe that leading a squadron of pilots on Earth can prepare you for exploring alien planets in a ground force unit. He shouldn't have been allowed near the Gate without training and shouldn't have been given command without gaining some experience first. Especially since in season 9 he was written as someone who didn't have common sense, let alone leadership skills (getting his team captured, tortured and nearly killed because he disregarded their advice, risking the entire operation because he was in a bad mood, drinking alcohol on duty, going AWOL on a diplomatic mission to have sex with a local, offering to use his influences to score points with said lady..and I'm just warming up).

And the worst thing for me was that Sam was written as happy about all this. Seriously, he almost gets her and her team killed and she behaves like nothing happened. These are my issues with Cam.

And for the record, I don't hate him. I used to, I admit, but I've mellowed over the time. And I mean no offence to Cam fans.

Also, as for Sam getting promoted to General, 3-4 years is a fairly typical time to spend at one rank. Jack spent an almost absurd amount of time as a full-bird, especially given he was already one at the beginning of the series. This is especially true if you consider the breadth of assignments Sam has had not just geographically or based on importance but based on how much coordination she's had to do between various branches of the US military, foreign military personnel, and even civilians and civilian organizations, both US and international (and, you know, intergalactic), which are important considerations in high-level promotions.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought 3-4 years is too little time based on how long Jack held a rank of Colonel. But I still don't think she's ready for General stars. Sometime in the future - absolutely, but not yet.

Oh, and I totally agree with what you wrote about SGU and not leaving people behind.

ETA:

On promotions/commands: If we assume Jack took over the Homeworld Security position from Hammond his being promoted to 3 Star finally puts him at the same rank as Hammond had when in that position. I don't see him making 4 Star though, unless the Program becomes public and they create a new Space Force (like the AF becoming a separate service when it was originally the Army Air Corps) with Jack as the Chief of Staff.

Exactly. That's why his promotion to a 3-star makes perfect sense to me. I mean Landry has 2 stars and Jack as his boss should outrank him, shouldn't he?

As for Sam, I think she's being groomed to take over the SGC (wherever that is now, assuming Cheyanne Mountain in the SGC Universe was BRACKed the same as the "real world" one) when Landry retires/moves to HWS. She was Acting Commander while Landry was on a temporary assignment. For now, being CO of the Hammond gives her a different type of command experience than Atlantis. I don't see it as a step down; those ships all have senior Full Colonels in command and seem to be the HWS equivalents of Navy Air Craft Carriers.

Again, exactly. The bolded part was pointed out to me when I was complaining that the Hammond was a step down for Sam after Atlantis and is the reason why I came to love her new posting. Ok, this and a few fantastic fanfics.