Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[XFchemist]

I can't stand to hear/read the "vous" between S/J. And that's a reason why I still prefer reading fics in English.
Though I have to say that in Italian Jack uses the "you" with Sam while she uses the "lei" that it's our formal version.
And even in our dubbed episodes some dialogues are different, way more shippy.

[Kimberley Jackson]

I can't stand to hear/read the "vous" between S/J. And that's a reason why I still prefer reading fics in English.
Though I have to say that in Italian Jack uses the "you" with Sam while she uses the "lei" that it's our formal version.
And even in our dubbed episodes some dialogues are different, way more shippy.

Oh really?!?! That's neat! Is it common in Italy maybe to refer to people who are under your rank with a more informal pronoun?

It's a common thing in Germany as well - not in the military (I think - at least not what I've heard from my dad who used to be in the German military), but in general working relationships superiors often use the informal version of "you", while subordinates are required to call them by the very formal address.

[XFchemist]

Oh really?!?! That's neat! Is it common in Italy maybe to refer to people who are under your rank with a more informal pronoun?

It's a common thing in Germany as well - not in the military (I think - at least not what I've heard from my dad who used to be in the German military), but in general working relationships superiors often use the informal version of "you", while subordinates are required to call them by the very formal address.

Not sure about the military but for the rest I guess so. With teachers/bosses/old people/strangers I always use the formal address while they almost always use the "you" with me.

[Nolamom]

it's one of the few times when English is actually easier!

[Amara D'Angeli]

it's one of the few times when English is actually easier!

Honestly, you get used to it so quickly when you have formal and informal pronouns. It becomes just as second nature as just dealing with the one.

[Starship Trooper]

I beg to differ. The Za'Tarc technology didn't reveal false memories. It merely showed that they were both suppressing (not mentioning) something that they didn't want to say - hell, to some extent they probably were afraid it would come out, which would mess with lie detectors pretty nicely too. Wasn't Anise asking "Are you sure you're telling me everything?"

Now, just to play devil's advocate here and just for the fun of it: What if in that touching 'invisible shield' scene when Jack didn't want to leave Sam, they had both realized that HE was caring more about her than he should?

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on this.

Firstly about the za'tarc testing, because the machine was developed to test for false memories. It did this by finding discrepancies between the conscious and sub-conscious mind. The goa'uld's memory conditioning could mess with someone's conscious memory recall to hide the false memory, but couldn't fool the person's sub-conscious. So Jack and Sam weren't consciously hiding their feelings, but on a sub-conscious level they knew what their actions had meant.

Then, I think there are a lot of things that indicate that Sam felt exactly the same as Jack, even though they don't show her being tested.

We have Daniel and Jack's conversation after they've been identified as za'tarcs:

Jack: She made a pass at me.
Daniel: Sam?
Jack: Anise, Freya, one of them.

Why is Daniel's first reaction to think it was Sam? There are plenty of 'shes' around the base! It could've been anyone, but Daniel immediately thinks he means Sam. And Daniel isn't always ultra observant when it comes to that stuff, so Sam's feelings about Jack must have been evident to him.

Then when she speaks to him just before he's about to be tested she says, "Something neither one of us can admit, given our working relationship, our military ranks....". OK, that can be looked at as being ambiguous, but if Sam doesn't have feelings for him at this point, why would it be a problem for her, under threat of death, to say that Jack seemed overly concerned about her? Or that she suspected that he had feelings for her? And anything she said like that would just be speculation and Jack could easily just deny it - her word against his kinda thing. Even if it could be proven or if Jack didn't deny it, she wouldn't have broken any regs, only him, and he wouldn't let her be re-assigned. It would only be his career in jeopardy and lets face it, Jack's not overly concerned about his career. He would gladly make the sacrifice for Sam.

Then if you looked at it from the viewpoint that she was just protecting him because they are friends and care for each other, then that would imply that she knew about his feelings and made a conscious decision to lie while they were testing her. Considering the fact that she only realised where the problem was when they were putting her into a coma means that it definitely wasn't a conscious decision.

And then there's the infamous "We're OK with that?" question. If it was only Jack at fault here and Sam was just trying to protect him, wouldn't he just have said "Are you OK with that?". It seems clear to me that they are in this together and both have feelings for each other.

[XFchemist]

I'd also like to add Sam's plea in Frozen, her behaviour in the Gate Room in The Fifth man when Hammond refused her request to come back to the planet, her break down in Paradise Lost...
So I don't think we didn't see her feelings until Grace.

[Kimberley Jackson]

Then when she speaks to him just before he's about to be tested she says, "Something neither one of us can admit, given our working relationship, our military ranks....". OK, that can be looked at as being ambiguous, but if Sam doesn't have feelings for him at this point, why would it be a problem for her, under threat of death, to say that Jack seemed overly concerned about her? Or that she suspected that he had feelings for her? And anything she said like that would just be speculation and Jack could easily just deny it - her word against his kinda thing. Even if it could be proven or if Jack didn't deny it, she wouldn't have broken any regs, only him, and he wouldn't let her be re-assigned.

Huh... apparently you've never been in a situation where you were confronted with somebody higher-ranking (with whom you actually share some kind of friendship) at work confessing to you that they're into you (when that kind of stuff is a problem), and you not exactly feeling the same way?
Given their working relationship - AND friendship - it would have been an absolute *****-move by Sam to call him out on it and jeopardize his career, even if he himself might not care about his career. It would go completely against the character they created in the first seasons. Besides, they obviously never talked about it, so it could be that subconsciously there would be this 'omg, I hope she didn't realize'-aspect to it as well. AND especially because they never mentioned it again, it would be clear that they would push it aside, because neither of them could be sure.

Then if you looked at it from the viewpoint that she was just protecting him because they are friends and care for each other, then that would imply that she knew about his feelings and made a conscious decision to lie while they were testing her. Considering the fact that she only realised where the problem was when they were putting her into a coma means that it definitely wasn't a conscious decision.

She didn't lie at all. Neither of them did. They merely ommitted the very tiny moment (3-4 seconds) when they were staring at each other - that was absolutely personal and had nothing to do with the mission, so both of them let it out, because they considered it to be 'off-topic' so to speak. Call it a fine, but distinct line I'm drawing here, but ommitting something is not lying about it. You're merely not mentioning it. And really, what are we talking about here? The scene gets drawn out on screen but in real time (not screen time!), that moment of realization was maybe 3 seconds long. And it was in her half-conscious state that Sam remembered, that those few seconds and the feelings of suppressing their assumptions about the glance in there, might just be what caused the Za'Tarc detector to respond as if they had false memories.

I mean, later on the the show it is explicitly referenced that the Ta'tarc detector had malfunctioned before (caused false positives) relating to Sam and Jack.

And then there's the infamous "We're OK with that?" question. If it was only Jack at fault here and Sam was just trying to protect him, wouldn't he just have said "Are you OK with that?". It seems clear to me that they are in this together and both have feelings for each other.

"WE" could also refer to their general working relationship, not to either one in particular. I mean clearly he doesn't ask her if he himself is okay with that. You could also translate that question to mean, "Are we gonna be able to keep working together?" and she affirms that it is not a problem for her.
It would be ridiculous to ask in a situation like that "Are you okay with that?" with would equal, "Hey, I'm in love with you. Are you okay with that?" What kind of question is that? What are you supposed to answer to something like that, esp. if your superior told you that. That kind of question would have forced a direct statement on her part, either affirming "Yes it's fine for you to be in love with me" equalling "I welcome your feelings" (which would be a reg problem!), or "No, it's not fine with me."
He phrases it in a way that refers to their working relationship - putting it in the background whether or not she welcomes the feeling - and strictly asks her, if they are going to be okay to keep that incident 'in the room', meaning 'it won't interfere with how I behave towards you at work'.

All speculation, but all I'm saying is, you could view it under those aspects as well.

Now I agree with the general notion that at that point Sam was probably having similar feelings, esp. considering the 'Jack asking her to go fishing with him'-scene. And you're right, I regarded her hesitation about that in exactly the same way. If she didn't have feelings about him, why would she get so awkward about it that he felt the need to affirm their status as "friends". I think they both knew he was moving a fine line there, making such a bold pass at her, and I think she also knew that if she actually agreed, there might have been some reg-breaking involved.

Not to mention that it might be considered improper behavior for a female soldier to go onto a trip alone with her superior officer. Whether or not something had happened, it might have started rumors.

[Kali]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on this.

Firstly about the za'tarc testing, because the machine was developed to test for false memories. It did this by finding discrepancies between the conscious and sub-conscious mind. The goa'uld's memory conditioning could mess with someone's conscious memory recall to hide the false memory, but couldn't fool the person's sub-conscious. So Jack and Sam weren't consciously hiding their feelings, but on a sub-conscious level they knew what their actions had meant.

Then, I think there are a lot of things that indicate that Sam felt exactly the same as Jack, even though they don't show her being tested.

We have Daniel and Jack's conversation after they've been identified as za'tarcs:

Jack: She made a pass at me.
Daniel: Sam?
Jack: Anise, Freya, one of them.

Why is Daniel's first reaction to think it was Sam? There are plenty of 'shes' around the base! It could've been anyone, but Daniel immediately thinks he means Sam. And Daniel isn't always ultra observant when it comes to that stuff, so Sam's feelings about Jack must have been evident to him.

Then when she speaks to him just before he's about to be tested she says, "Something neither one of us can admit, given our working relationship, our military ranks....". OK, that can be looked at as being ambiguous, but if Sam doesn't have feelings for him at this point, why would it be a problem for her, under threat of death, to say that Jack seemed overly concerned about her? Or that she suspected that he had feelings for her? And anything she said like that would just be speculation and Jack could easily just deny it - her word against his kinda thing. Even if it could be proven or if Jack didn't deny it, she wouldn't have broken any regs, only him, and he wouldn't let her be re-assigned. It would only be his career in jeopardy and lets face it, Jack's not overly concerned about his career. He would gladly make the sacrifice for Sam.



And then there's the infamous "We're OK with that?" question. If it was only Jack at fault here and Sam was just trying to protect him, wouldn't he just have said "Are you OK with that?". It seems clear to me that they are in this together and both have feelings for each other.

^good post.

Imo, the purpose of this episode is to make them both admit their feelings despite the fact that because of their rank, it would be inappropriate. They had to say it, not just feel it. Even in the scene when Jack refuses to leave Sam, it wasn't his refusal to leave that was inappropriate but rather the emotions he clearly felt during that decision.

[IamDKScully]

It's all about the body language and the looks between Jack and Sam during that force shield scene. I've never watched a show where two actors have so much chemistry that they are able to say so much without saying anything at all. It's one of the things I absolutely love about this show. I think the whole team could sit in a room and not speak but easily have a conversation with their eyes and expressions.

,, ,

Now...has anyone noticed that Teal'c is SO in the know about Jack and Sam! Watch Metamorphosis and notice his head nod and then how he turns away as Sam lays her head on Jack's shoulder. Look at his face during Divide and Conquer during the Za'tarc test. And, he is there to comfort both Jack and Sam when the other is missing (Paradise Lost and Grace).

Go, re-watch, observe...

knows

[IamDKScully]

Huh... apparently you've never been in a situation where you were confronted with somebody higher-ranking (with whom you actually share some kind of friendship) at work confessing to you that they're into you (when that kind of stuff is a problem), and you not exactly feeling the same way?
Given their working relationship - AND friendship - it would have been an absolute *****-move by Sam to call him out on it and jeopardize his career, even if he himself might not care about his career. It would go completely against the character they created in the first seasons. Besides, they obviously never talked about it, so it could be that subconsciously there would be this 'omg, I hope she didn't realize'-aspect to it as well. AND especially because they never mentioned it again, it would be clear that they would push it aside, because neither of them could be sure.

This makes it sound like Sam is giving Jack an "out." I don't think that is the case. She specifically says what neither one of us can admit...why say that if she didn't feel the same way?? And, again...look at the LOOK and the expressions during that scene. The way her breath hitches when she's looking at him...it's more than an OMG I'm going to die moment.

She didn't lie at all. Neither of them did. They merely ommitted the very tiny moment (3-4 seconds) when they were staring at each other - that was absolutely personal and had nothing to do with the mission, so both of them let it out, because they considered it to be 'off-topic' so to speak. Call it a fine, but distinct line I'm drawing here, but ommitting something is not lying about it. You're merely not mentioning it. And really, what are we talking about here? The scene gets drawn out on screen but in real time (not screen time!), that moment of realization was maybe 3 seconds long. And it was in her half-conscious state that Sam remembered, that those few seconds and the feelings of suppressing their assumptions about the glance in there, might just be what caused the Za'Tarc detector to respond as if they had false memories.

I mean, later on the the show it is explicitly referenced that the Ta'tarc detector had malfunctioned before (caused false positives) relating to Sam and Jack.

A "lie of omission" is still a lie. Neither Sam nor Jack consciously lied. That is the whole point.

[fems]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on this.

Firstly about the za'tarc testing, because the machine was developed to test for false memories. It did this by finding discrepancies between the conscious and sub-conscious mind. The goa'uld's memory conditioning could mess with someone's conscious memory recall to hide the false memory, but couldn't fool the person's sub-conscious. So Jack and Sam weren't consciously hiding their feelings, but on a sub-conscious level they knew what their actions had meant.

Then, I think there are a lot of things that indicate that Sam felt exactly the same as Jack, even though they don't show her being tested.

We have Daniel and Jack's conversation after they've been identified as za'tarcs:

Jack: She made a pass at me.
Daniel: Sam?
Jack: Anise, Freya, one of them.

Why is Daniel's first reaction to think it was Sam? There are plenty of 'shes' around the base! It could've been anyone, but Daniel immediately thinks he means Sam. And Daniel isn't always ultra observant when it comes to that stuff, so Sam's feelings about Jack must have been evident to him.

Then when she speaks to him just before he's about to be tested she says, "Something neither one of us can admit, given our working relationship, our military ranks....". OK, that can be looked at as being ambiguous, but if Sam doesn't have feelings for him at this point, why would it be a problem for her, under threat of death, to say that Jack seemed overly concerned about her? Or that she suspected that he had feelings for her? And anything she said like that would just be speculation and Jack could easily just deny it - her word against his kinda thing. Even if it could be proven or if Jack didn't deny it, she wouldn't have broken any regs, only him, and he wouldn't let her be re-assigned. It would only be his career in jeopardy and lets face it, Jack's not overly concerned about his career. He would gladly make the sacrifice for Sam.

Then if you looked at it from the viewpoint that she was just protecting him because they are friends and care for each other, then that would imply that she knew about his feelings and made a conscious decision to lie while they were testing her. Considering the fact that she only realised where the problem was when they were putting her into a coma means that it definitely wasn't a conscious decision.

And then there's the infamous "We're OK with that?" question. If it was only Jack at fault here and Sam was just trying to protect him, wouldn't he just have said "Are you OK with that?". It seems clear to me that they are in this together and both have feelings for each other.

Well said! SJ_green.gif

Huh... apparently you've never been in a situation where you were confronted with somebody higher-ranking (with whom you actually share some kind of friendship) at work confessing to you that they're into you (when that kind of stuff is a problem), and you not exactly feeling the same way?

I don't see why that has anything to do with it. Unwanted attention from anyone, especially a boss/superior is always unwelcome and probably makes on feel a bit uncomfortable but I really don't see why it would matter if Starship Trooper has experienced this herself or not in order for her to understand what occurred in the episode. None of us have traveled through a Stargate either, yet we all have a basic understanding of what happens when you do and understand the concept of it.

Given their working relationship - AND friendship - it would have been an absolute *****-move by Sam to call him out on it and jeopardize his career, even if he himself might not care about his career. It would go completely against the character they created in the first seasons. Besides, they obviously never talked about it, so it could be that subconsciously there would be this 'omg, I hope she didn't realize'-aspect to it as well. AND especially because they never mentioned it again, it would be clear that they would push it aside, because neither of them could be sure.

Are you saying it would have been better for Sam to say nothing at all (if Jack's feelings were unrequited) and just let him die?! Not to mention she would probably die too or be in an artificial coma for a very long time if they didn't prove they weren't zatarcs. Plus, if it was him or her I think Sam would choose herself, considering she isn't (in your scenario) the one with inappropriate feelings for a fellow/superior/junior officer and by withholding or lying about his feelings (if she was aware of them) she makes the whole situation even more suspect once the truth does come out and it would probably make her look even worse.

She didn't lie at all. Neither of them did. They merely ommitted the very tiny moment (3-4 seconds) when they were staring at each other - that was absolutely personal and had nothing to do with the mission, so both of them let it out, because they considered it to be 'off-topic' so to speak. Call it a fine, but distinct line I'm drawing here, but ommitting something is not lying about it. You're merely not mentioning it. And really, what are we talking about here? The scene gets drawn out on screen but in real time (not screen time!), that moment of realization was maybe 3 seconds long. And it was in her half-conscious state that Sam remembered, that those few seconds and the feelings of suppressing their assumptions about the glance in there, might just be what caused the Za'Tarc detector to respond as if they had false memories.

I mean, later on the the show it is explicitly referenced that the Ta'tarc detector had malfunctioned before (caused false positives) relating to Sam and Jack.

"WE" could also refer to their general working relationship, not to either one in particular. I mean clearly he doesn't ask her if he himself is okay with that. You could also translate that question to mean, "Are we gonna be able to keep working together?" and she affirms that it is not a problem for her.
It would be ridiculous to ask in a situation like that "Are you okay with that?" with would equal, "Hey, I'm in love with you. Are you okay with that?" What kind of question is that? What are you supposed to answer to something like that, esp. if your superior told you that. That kind of question would have forced a direct statement on her part, either affirming "Yes it's fine for you to be in love with me" equalling "I welcome your feelings" (which would be a reg problem!), or "No, it's not fine with me."
He phrases it in a way that refers to their working relationship - putting it in the background whether or not she welcomes the feeling - and strictly asks her, if they are going to be okay to keep that incident 'in the room', meaning 'it won't interfere with how I behave towards you at work'.

All speculation, but all I'm saying is, you could view it under those aspects as well.

I think you're grasping at straws here. The whole point of leaving out the moment in Upgrades is so that the audience (and initially even Sam and Jack) don't know about it until it's almost too late, because Sam suddenly realizes that's where their subconscious memories differ from their retelling/debriefing of the mission and the machine thinks they're lying/being zatarcs because they didn't tell the whole truth about it.

Also, the line about being okay with it clearly refers to the confession of their feelings/confessions:

ANISE
You are also not a Zatarc.
CARTER
Thank you.
[O'Neill goes to help Carter out of the chair.]
O'NEILL
Carter…
CARTER
Sir…None of this has to leave this room.
O'NEILL
We're okay with that?
CARTER
Yes, Sir.

Jack didn't broach the subject and Sam didn't make the offer [of leaving it in the room] until after Sam had been tested and gave her side of the moment. So, if it was a one-sided thing why would Jack ask Sam if she was okay with leaving his feelings in that room? She would probably be more than happy and relieved not to have to think about it anymore and Jack would probably feel the same (as well as very embarrassed) and undoubtedly would never want to mention it again.

Oh and as far as indications of Sam's feelings for Jack go; don't forget Beneath the Surface, where they were a lot closer than normal friends would be and it seemed to indicate they were in a relationship. I also think the "Sir" moment at the end wasn't just Jack's disappointment and pain at having to go back to the status quo, Sam's tone/inflection/behavior expressed regret to me as well.

[fems]

It's all about the body language and the looks between Jack and Sam during that force shield scene. I've never watched a show where two actors have so much chemistry that they are able to say so much without saying anything at all. It's one of the things I absolutely love about this show. I think the whole team could sit in a room and not speak but easily have a conversation with their eyes and expressions.

http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...ps99fe4b07.jpg, http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7ca921f5.jpg

Now...has anyone noticed that Teal'c is SO in the know about Jack and Sam! Watch Metamorphosis and notice his head nod and then how he turns away as Sam lays her head on Jack's shoulder. Look at his face during Divide and Conquer during the Za'tarc test. And, he is there to comfort both Jack and Sam when the other is missing (Paradise Lost and Grace).

Go, re-watch, observe...

knows

If I'm not mistaken there were supposed to be words/lines in that moment but RDA and AT chose to forego them. At least, that's what I read somewhere sometime, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, I think that was the right choice because they are both incredible at communicating through their facial expressions and eyes alone, unlike a lot of today's actors/actresses and shows where everything has to be spelled out because the acting alone doesn't do a good enough job of conveying it (often emotions or discoveries) to the audience.

And of course Teal'c knows! He was there during their confessions after all and there's a reason he's referred to as the First Shipper! I think even Daniel is somewhat in the know and we know General Hammond has had his suspicions too with the occasional comment on knowing how much Sam means to Jack... and Janet obviously knows as well, since she was there with Sam during the Edora thing and present at the zatarc confessions as well.

[Scofield]

All true points Fems. I totally agree their body language is a skill which lacks in nowadays movies. For example, when Sam shows the ring to Jack, only his eyes and the short nod said something like "I regret a lot that it's Pete and not me, but as long as you're happy..". If this situation appeared in a movie from theese days, probably the actor would have said exactly what i wrote betwen "". This would ruin all the beauty and it's also awkward. It would damage as well as the friendship and the potential relation that could have emerged from that situation.
In this series i saw to most intense chemistry betwen characters.

I wonder how many times i will have rewatched stargate after ten years...

[Kimberley Jackson]

I don't see why that has anything to do with it. Unwanted attention from anyone, especially a boss/superior is always unwelcome and probably makes on feel a bit uncomfortable but I really don't see why it would matter if Starship Trooper has experienced this herself or not in order for her to understand what occurred in the episode. None of us have traveled through a Stargate either, yet we all have a basic understanding of what happens when you do and understand the concept of it.

You're right, that came over as a personal attack. It was certainly not meant that way, and I apologize. What I meant was: in those moments it does matter what kind of relationship you have to a person. If it's just a superior, it's just awkward - probably to the point of harassment and the aspect of 'unwanted attention' is a lot graver. If it's a superior AND close friend, you deal with it differently. The thought of reporting them doesn't even come to mind, but rather one tries to preserve both friendship as well as working relationship.

Sam and Jack did have that kind of relationship where the main concern would most likely not have been that one cared more for the other, but rather the question of "Okay, that's fine, but how do we handle this? We can't let this destroy either of our careers."
I'm not saying it's how they felt! As a matter of fact, it is most likely not.

So my point was not that Jack might have been harassing Sam. Not at all! And also I don't see it that way.
After reading the exact conversation you posted, it is pretty close assumption that she might have indeed stated similar feelings as Jack.

I just can't help but keep wondering: why the conscious (!) decision to omit what she was saying? Why skip the entire part of her confessing her affection? Was it just cut out, because the episode (or rather the emotional part) was getting too long and taking up too much of the episode? Was her scene ever even written into the script? The audio commentary to the episode doesn't answer the question either, so it is just something that I find highly interesting. What are the motives behind that particular setup of the scene that allows Jack to explicitly tell the audience what he feels, but then leaves Sam's confession as a gap to be filled by the audience?

Sorry folks, it's just what I do, I can't help it. I like to challenge myself to take the opposite side of what I believe (or want) to be true, simply for the fun of seeing if I am just reading things into it that I want to be in there. I mean no offense to anyone.

Oh and as far as indications of Sam's feelings for Jack go; don't forget Beneath the Surface, where they were a lot closer than normal friends would be and it seemed to indicate they were in a relationship. I also think the "Sir" moment at the end wasn't just Jack's disappointment and pain at having to go back to the status quo, Sam's tone/inflection/behavior expressed regret to me as well.

Yes, they definitely were in a relationship in that episode. It's affirmed if you listen to the audio commentary of that episode where the producer (Peter DeLuise) explicitly states that the original script even contained a scene where they were kissing as lovers. However, they decided to not shoot that part, because they felt that Sam and Jack had just kissed in Window of Opportunity, and stated their feelings in Divide & Conquer, both episodes shortly before Beneath the Surface - and they had the feeling that this kiss would be overdoing it.

I personally don't share that feeling, but I can see where people who were not so much into the romance between Jack and Sam, but more into the show as Sci-Fi might start to get annoyed and feel that SG was turning into a romance. However, it would have still been nice to see it on screen if you ask me, simply because the episode allowed for that kind of relationship to be explored on screen without making it fluffy.