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Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

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    Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
    ^ Fraiser: Colonel O'Neill, you seem ill.
    Jack: I'm fine, doc.
    Fraiser: Then why are you making that face? Have you been eating your Activia?

    Wah! I can't green you! Consider yourself virtually greened, you wonderful woman.

    FF
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      Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
      You'd think they'd know by now that with any good villain, less is more. We had the same problem with Gul Dukat and Kai Winn on DS9, though not to the same degree. Good villains are used sparingly.



      There was some scope for some wonderful Sam and Daniel angst after RepliCarter. And I still think she was Sam's nemesis, not Daniel's, Sam should have had the honour of the coup de grace.



      Any SF show which has two A threads, one being the saving of the galaxy, the other being the turgid attempt at romance between two principals, and gives both plotlines the same emphasis, is doing some thing wrong with it's priorities and what it thinks it's core audience wants.
      Daniel gets to save the universe. Sam get's to wear a twinset and stutter at interrupting her boss' BBQ. Obviously, both plotlines are equally important and meaningful. Yeah, right, don't make me laugh.

      FF
      I think if a show has drama and romance as one of its key themes, then a double A plot like taht could work

      SG-1 was neither. I think i've seen threads twice. Once on TV, adn again the extended version which felt better to me since it just makes the S/J ship seem even stupider since Jack was totally enjoying boning Kerry, and she didn't seem all that displeased either
      Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
      Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

      Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
      Read the story ---- Apostle's Message Redux, ME/SG Crossover

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        Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
        I think if a show has drama and romance as one of its key themes, then a double A plot like taht could work
        Nail on head. The right sort of show, the right sort of balance, it would have worked. Not SG1 though.

        Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
        SG-1 was neither. I think i've seen threads twice. Once on TV, adn again the extended version which felt better to me since it just makes the S/J ship seem even stupider since Jack was totally enjoying boning Kerry, and she didn't seem all that displeased either
        Kerry certainly seemed to cure Jack's intestinal issues, no swallowed-a-wasp looks round her. Even when she's in his bed. Funny that. Anyone would think the actor was enjoying himself, playing into the romance, acting, even...

        FF
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          Hi all, just dropping in here to ask if anyone wants to contribute to my discussion at

          http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/7...n-Sam-and-Jack

          I'm wanting to get opinion from both shippers and non-shippers about the frat.regs, so would appreciate anything anyone wants to add

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          ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ my fanfics ~ my twitter ~ teslen thread ~ * ~ * ~ * ~

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            Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
            I wouldn't hold your breath on the film shooting this year, or seeing the light of day before 2012 at the earliest. Every day which passes, more hard core fans drift away, all the casual fans are already long gone and the general viewing public have new shows to watch.
            I'll be long gone by the time the next film happens, if it ever does, so I won't care if they try to resurrect the dead horse for one last whipping, selfish, I know, but true none the less.

            FF
            Well yeah in some ways, at this point, I don't think I'd actually care if they directly acknowledged it in the third movie. I'd probably give it one last eyeroll and move on.

            But I do kinda want a third movie. I just recently bought all 10 seasons on dvd and am rewatching them. Just started on S3. I miss SG-1.
            IMO always implied.

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              Originally posted by LoneStar1836 View Post
              Well yeah in some ways, at this point, I don't think I'd actually care if they directly acknowledged it in the third movie. I'd probably give it one last eyeroll and move on.

              But I do kinda want a third movie. I just recently bought all 10 seasons on dvd and am rewatching them. Just started on S3. I miss SG-1.
              SG1 got a much better ending than most shows; there aren't any important dangling plot threads, unlike Atlantis or Firefly or DS9 (though those got tied up in novels, Sisko's de-ascension being the big one).

              Nice if it got another outing, but not necessary, story wise.

              FF
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                Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                SG1 got a much better ending than most shows; there aren't any important dangling plot threads, unlike Atlantis or Firefly or DS9 (though those got tied up in novels, Sisko's de-ascension being the big one).

                Nice if it got another outing, but not necessary, story wise.

                FF
                True. It got a resolution...albeit one that had aspects that I really disliked...Asgard mass suicide so we could get the ubertech.

                I just miss the show, the actors, the characters, etc....

                Since you watched Firefly, have you seen the follow up movie, Serenity? It gives the show a pretty good resolution concerning a couple of plots from the show. There is a 4 issue comic book series that bridges the final episode of the show and the movie.
                IMO always implied.

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                  Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                  Jack-Daniel was definitely the dynamic the writers excelled at and I think RDA & MS enjoyed it too. Though I think it was a shadow of its former self in the Daniel as Prior episode. Imho, by then we were with dumbJack & snarky Daniel
                  I really love The Shroud, but I do agree that the Jack & Daniel dynamic feels a little bit... forced. I'm in the minority here, but I don't really have a problem with snarky!Daniel in the later seasons. Even less so in The Shroud because I figure that some of the time it's Merlin's perspective bleeding through. But regardless... some of those moments in The Shroud feel a little forced. Though not as bad as that scene at the end of Origin where Jack comes to see Daniel in his office. RDA acts like he's reading the lines off of cue cards. And the dialogue sounded solid to me, MS seemed to give the scene his all, but RDA just sounded flat throughout. It's something I've never understood. I remember when that episode first aired, my dad was watching it with me, and he was a pretty casual viewer, generally didn't pay much attention to the character stuff or the acting. But at that scene he looks at me and goes "what's wrong with him? He's acting really weird." Coming from a casual viewer, that pretty much says it all.

                  Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                  Personally, i would have loved to see Daniel affected by his time as a Prior. It's such a transfomative change that i don't believe he doesn't have hangups about it.
                  I couldn't agree more. But yes, SG-1 was never very good with showing how events from one episode affected the characters later on. Which is probably part of the reason why the Sam/Jack thing felt so wishy-washy. They wouldn't follow-up on it, so it seemed to disappear. Then it would suddenly appear again with no warning. Very inconsistent.
                  Chief of the GGP (Gateworld Grammar Police). Punctuation is your friend. Use it!

                  Great happy armies shall be gathered and trained to oppose all who embrace doubt. In the name of Hope, ships shall be built to carry our disciples out amongst the stars, and we will spread Optimism to all the doubters. The power of the Optimi will be felt far and wide, and the pessimists shall become positive-thinkers.
                  Hallowed are the Optimi.

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                    Originally posted by LoneStar1836 View Post
                    True. It got a resolution...albeit one that had aspects that I really disliked...Asgard mass suicide so we could get the ubertech.

                    I just miss the show, the actors, the characters, etc....

                    Since you watched Firefly, have you seen the follow up movie, Serenity? It gives the show a pretty good resolution concerning a couple of plots from the show. There is a 4 issue comic book series that bridges the final episode of the show and the movie.
                    Oh yes, I bought Serenity when I bought Firefly, but thank you for the suggestion.
                    Currently awaiting delivery on the comics.

                    Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                    I really love The Shroud, but I do agree that the Jack & Daniel dynamic feels a little bit... forced. I'm in the minority here, but I don't really have a problem with snarky!Daniel in the later seasons. Even less so in The Shroud because I figure that some of the time it's Merlin's perspective bleeding through. But regardless... some of those moments in The Shroud feel a little forced.
                    Daniel has always been snarky, right from day one.
                    The banter in The Shroud didn't quite work as well as it used to, still nice to see that Jack will drop anything and move heaven and earth when Daniel is MIA, that never changes.

                    Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                    Though not as bad as that scene at the end of Origin where Jack comes to see Daniel in his office. RDA acts like he's reading the lines off of cue cards. And the dialogue sounded solid to me, MS seemed to give the scene his all, but RDA just sounded flat throughout. It's something I've never understood. I remember when that episode first aired, my dad was watching it with me, and he was a pretty casual viewer, generally didn't pay much attention to the character stuff or the acting. But at that scene he looks at me and goes "what's wrong with him? He's acting really weird." Coming from a casual viewer, that pretty much says it all.
                    That's exactly the sort of flat acting that Amanda had to face with some of the more blatant attempts at forcing Sam and Jack into the SG1 plots (for example, the embarrassing scene at Jack's house before the rest of the team come in Lost City). RDA gave her nothing to act against, flat, dead, cold, which makes Sam look like some pathetic teenager pining for a man who is just not interested in her. And isn't fair on either character or actress.
                    With the Jack/Daniel scene in Origin, we had the same thing (though I think that was the only time RDA pulled that stunt on MS) and it was just as jarring. I assumed at the time that the actors had shot the scenes separately; if I remember, there's no actual shot of them together, face to face and RDA does act as though he's talking to a brick wall. Very odd. When he did it with the S/J romance scenes it was even worse because AT was clearly with him on set at the time and still the brick wall came down.
                    Very odd acting/directing choice, very jarring and strange.


                    Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                    I couldn't agree more. But yes, SG-1 was never very good with showing how events from one episode affected the characters later on. Which is probably part of the reason why the Sam/Jack thing felt so wishy-washy. They wouldn't follow-up on it, so it seemed to disappear. Then it would suddenly appear again with no warning. Very inconsistent.
                    Not helped by TPTB blowing hot and cold and not all having an interest in S/J, so some of them ignored it, others played into it, which made it feel bolted on and false, not a natural part of the characterisation or plot.

                    FF
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                      Originally posted by LoneStar1836 View Post
                      I just miss the show, the actors, the characters, etc....
                      Indeed.

                      Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                      I'm in the minority here, but I don't really have a problem with snarky!Daniel in the later seasons. Even less so in The Shroud because I figure that some of the time it's Merlin's perspective bleeding through. But regardless... some of those moments in The Shroud feel a little forced. Though not as bad as that scene at the end of Origin where Jack comes to see Daniel in his office. RDA acts like he's reading the lines off of cue cards. And the dialogue sounded solid to me, MS seemed to give the scene his all, but RDA just sounded flat throughout. It's something I've never understood. I remember when that episode first aired, my dad was watching it with me, and he was a pretty casual viewer, generally didn't pay much attention to the character stuff or the acting. But at that scene he looks at me and goes "what's wrong with him? He's acting really weird." Coming from a casual viewer, that pretty much says it all.
                      Then I'm in the minority right along with you! Daniel has been snarky since Day One. I have a theory that people simply noticed it more in the later seasons owing to the absence of Jack, whose one-liners and glib snark were legendary. Take that away and there's only Daniel's snark, which would appear to be more noticeable. I adore the snark, personally, it was part of Daniel's not-always-loveable character. Perversely, it made me love him more. But that's just me.

                      Wasn't the Origin scene filmed while RDA was suffering after foot surgery and not feeling great or something? It was definitely off. Poor Michael suffering the same flat response that AT had to put with in the ship moments. Sad that, because it was actually a very telling character moment for Daniel ... he was scared, and he'd only admit that to Jack. *hugs Daniel in an unthreatening and supportive way*

                      And on topic: Jack/Sam ... still not my cup of tea.

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                        *raises hand*...I also had no problems with snarky Daniel, nor his supposed morphing into a more "action-like" character.......he's always been snarky, and 10 years of hard marching/fighing/negotiating coupled with some of the most amazing emtional struggles is bound to change him physically and mentally......as did his team mates too imho...none of them has stayed the same - they all evolved......in fact the only thing that didn't evolve into anything mature and productive was the S/J romantic angle...it stayed on the same juvenile level until the very end....yeuch!...


                        It was nice to see the team "grow up", but excrutiating to see the supposed "romance" not!...


                        Deeds xx
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                          Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                          Indeed.
                          Then I'm in the minority right along with you! Daniel has been snarky since Day One. I have a theory that people simply noticed it more in the later seasons owing to the absence of Jack, whose one-liners and glib snark were legendary. Take that away and there's only Daniel's snark, which would appear to be more noticeable. I adore the snark, personally, it was part of Daniel's not-always-loveable character. Perversely, it made me love him more. But that's just me.
                          I'd not thought of that; how lack of Jack's snark made people, who hadn't previously noticed Daniel's own snark monster, see it for the first time.
                          And, of course, if you like Daniel snark, and watch for it and have done since the start of the show, then it's nothing new or note worthy.
                          Interesting point.

                          Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                          Wasn't the Origin scene filmed while RDA was suffering after foot surgery and not feeling great or something? It was definitely off. Poor Michael suffering the same flat response that AT had to put with in the ship moments. Sad that, because it was actually a very telling character moment for Daniel ... he was scared, and he'd only admit that to Jack. *hugs Daniel in an unthreatening and supportive way*
                          I felt for Amanda ever single time, because it wasn't just once, as with that Jack and Daniel scene. Once you can put down to a bad day, just being slightly off kilter.
                          But RDA did it time and again in later shows, when the S/J interaction went beyond subtle and came down too thick, he'd go dead. Dead flat eyes, blank shielded face.
                          What I lovingly refer to as the swallowed-a-wasp look and other people call the in-need-of-prunes look, both in jest, but in truth, that's when RDA is doing it.
                          And I just don't get why the director didn't do something about it. It's where the inference that Sam is more invested in a potential relationship than Jack is comes from, at least for me. Had he been responding normally, naturally, as he did with Sara or Kerry, then the scenes wouldn't be so embarrassing and come over so one sided and stilted and unhealthy.
                          Too late now, shows over, what we saw was all we'll get.

                          Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                          And on topic: Jack/Sam ... still not my cup of tea.
                          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
                          *raises hand*...I also had no problems with snarky Daniel, nor his supposed morphing into a more "action-like" character.......he's always been snarky, and 10 years of hard marching/fighting/negotiating coupled with some of the most amazing emotional struggles is bound to change him physically and mentally......as did his team mates too imho...none of them has stayed the same - they all evolved......in fact the only thing that didn't evolve into anything mature and productive was the S/J romantic angle...it stayed on the same juvenile level until the very end....yeuch!...

                          It was nice to see the team "grow up", but excrutiating to see the supposed "romance" not!...

                          Deeds xx
                          Romance does not automatically equate with mature. Plenty of teenagers (and, pathetically older people) think that they are having the greatest romance since man first hit woman over the head with a club and dragged her off into the nearest cave. They are wrong. They think their romance is magical and special and twinkly and sparkly in a way that no romance has ever been, before or since. They are also wrong.

                          Romantic love is not the greatest apogee of human emotion, it is by it's nature selfish, exclusive and often short lived. It can be great fun, it can cement a relationship, but let's not pretend that it's the be all and end all of all human emotion.

                          FF
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                            Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                            I'd not thought of that; how lack of Jack's snark made people, who hadn't previously noticed Daniel's own snark monster, see it for the first time.
                            Daniel could definitely be snarky, but somehow the later seasons felt different somehow to me.


                            Romantic love is not the greatest apogee of human emotion, it is by it's nature selfish, exclusive and often short lived. It can be great fun, it can cement a relationship, but let's not pretend that it's the be all and end all of all human emotion.

                            FF
                            Interesting point. And perhaps why I found the teamy bond/love so much more interesting in this show.

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                              Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                              Daniel could definitely be snarky, but somehow the later seasons felt different somehow to me.
                              That might be in part because Jack was usually the foil/victim of Daniel's snark? In later seasons, he wasn't there for Daniel/MS to play off?

                              Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                              Interesting point. And perhaps why I found the teamy bond/love so much more interesting in this show.
                              There's also a world of difference between the reality of love and romance in the real world, and how it is portrayed by the 'romance industry' of romantic films, books, TV, etc.
                              Which is the real dichotomy I don't like; the dull, sanitized, sterile TV love of Sam and Jack, shoehorned into a 45 minute TV SF adventure show, is worlds away from the gloriously messy, complicated love and romance of real life.

                              FF
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                                Slight continuation of me dragging discussion off-topic with snarky-Daniel...

                                Spoiler:
                                Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                                Then I'm in the minority right along with you! Daniel has been snarky since Day One. I have a theory that people simply noticed it more in the later seasons owing to the absence of Jack, whose one-liners and glib snark were legendary. Take that away and there's only Daniel's snark, which would appear to be more noticeable. I adore the snark, personally, it was part of Daniel's not-always-loveable character. Perversely, it made me love him more. But that's just me.

                                Wasn't the Origin scene filmed while RDA was suffering after foot surgery and not feeling great or something? It was definitely off. Poor Michael suffering the same flat response that AT had to put with in the ship moments. Sad that, because it was actually a very telling character moment for Daniel ... he was scared, and he'd only admit that to Jack. *hugs Daniel in an unthreatening and supportive way*
                                That's exactly how I see it. Daniel was always snarky. I've heard some people say that his snarky comments in seasons 9-10 feel like they were written for Jack, but I don't see it. It sounds consistent for his voice to me. I could see your theory that Daniel's snark was more obvious without Jack's more frequent snark-offs. Plus, there are moments when it seems like Daniel makes a snarky comment to break the tension because Jack isn't around to do it. But considering we saw him do that all the way back in season 4 with Watergate... it's hardly surprising.

                                You're probably right about RDA's foot surgery. I don't follow all of those details about the actor's lives very closely, but it would make sense. And I agree (surprise, surprise ) that scene was really important for Daniel's character development. I always want so badly to like it, because the dialogue seems solid and it should be such a significant scene... but it just feels flat.

                                Originally posted by discodiva View Post
                                *raises hand*...I also had no problems with snarky Daniel, nor his supposed morphing into a more "action-like" character.......he's always been snarky, and 10 years of hard marching/fighing/negotiating coupled with some of the most amazing emtional struggles is bound to change him physically and mentally......as did his team mates too imho...
                                (and yay! for finding people who agree with me ). It always felt like natural character growth to me. Especially since season 9 and 10 pretty well established that the historian/archeologist side of Daniel's personality was still very important to him... as was his connection to the Ancients. So for me, it worked as natural character development.


                                Originally posted by discodiva View Post
                                none of them has stayed the same - they all evolved......in fact the only thing that didn't evolve into anything mature and productive was the S/J romantic angle...it stayed on the same juvenile level until the very end....yeuch!...

                                It was nice to see the team "grow up", but excrutiating to see the supposed "romance" not!...
                                Yep! If there was some growth or maturity to the romance story line, then okay. Fair enough. But there never was. As much as I would have hated to see it, it would have been better from a writing standpoint to just address the relationship head-on and deal with it one way or the other. I get that they were trying to keep as many fans happy as possible by leaving it somewhat ambiguous, but seriously. It only made things worse in the end.

                                I think it might have been interesting to see them try to give Jack and Sam some type of romantic relationship, and then have them realize that it doesn't work because it would have been less of a cliche and it would have shown that romances are complicated and not nearly as fairy-tale-like as they sound. It could have worked if Sam had transferred to the science department so that her and Jack could get together, they spent half a season or so as a couple, then realized it wasn't working out because they had different life goals and Sam regretted giving up SG-1 for Jack. Then Jack could have been promoted to General, Sam could return to SG-1, and they could agree that they were best just working as friends and colleagues.

                                Of course, that's just my preference, and it would have upset a lot of fans. Can't have that obviously. Oh wait, TPTB already upset a lot of fans on both sides of the issue. Guess it's a little late for making the fans happy then.

                                Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                                I felt for Amanda ever single time, because it wasn't just once, as with that Jack and Daniel scene. Once you can put down to a bad day, just being slightly off kilter.
                                But RDA did it time and again in later shows, when the S/J interaction went beyond subtle and came down too thick, he'd go dead. Dead flat eyes, blank shielded face.
                                What I lovingly refer to as the swallowed-a-wasp look and other people call the in-need-of-prunes look, both in jest, but in truth, that's when RDA is doing it.
                                I saw a picture of RDA the other day while browsing the forum that I think was supposed to be shipy, but to me it looked like "tight-jawed and slightly scowling." Yikkes! Not a look I really want directed at me, especially by a guy I might have feelings for.
                                Chief of the GGP (Gateworld Grammar Police). Punctuation is your friend. Use it!

                                Great happy armies shall be gathered and trained to oppose all who embrace doubt. In the name of Hope, ships shall be built to carry our disciples out amongst the stars, and we will spread Optimism to all the doubters. The power of the Optimi will be felt far and wide, and the pessimists shall become positive-thinkers.
                                Hallowed are the Optimi.

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