Originally posted by Strix varia
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Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation
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well, i warned simply because there are folks out there that can't stand the ship angle...and since this story has it, warning for it is like reccing a sam/daniel fic where they end up in bed with each other
just common courtesy
however, you do have a point. the need to warn is a long standing one and goes back YEARS
to many in the fandon, sam and jack is icky. it's gross. it's silly. it ruined the show. ruined sam, etc, etc, etc
and since many of the folks that feel that way also ran - at the time - the major archives and lists, warning for any of that icky het stuff was mandatory. heck, in some of the archives these folks still run, sam/pete, jack/sara, daniel/shauri is ok to be listed as gen but ANYTHING with sam/jack in it MUST be relegated to ship (for the protection of all )
you get whacked around for daring ot rec a het ship fic enough times and you feel the need to warn lest you be the recipient of 'OMG MY EYES!!!!!!! THEY KISSED. OMG, IT WAS SO HORRIBLE, I'M TRAUMATIZED!!!!!!!!!!!!' (and i'm only exaggerating a bit )
what i'd personally LOVE to see...Gen sam fic.
no offense to the shippers at all. but most of the 'gen' writers only write daniel or jack or the pair. the only folks that seem to write sam are the shippers so pretty much every sam fic out there is s/j in some way shape or form
course another issue...in the eyes of many, any and all s/j interactin is ship. they can be talking about the weather and it's ship, cause you know, all males and females are just incapable of doing anything but flirting. whereas m/m interaction is automatically given the benefit of the doubt and it's not slash until someone swaps bodily fluids or makes a declaration of undying love
there is a predjudice and double standard when it comes to classifying a fic as ship or gen
in shaz's fic, there are sam/jack undertones. but it's not the extent of the story. the theme/plot of the story isn't them getting together, it's them saving earth. hell, i don't think they even kiss in the end
but that tiny bit of interaction is enough to get some crying 'icky het' and so shippers have a knee jerk reaction to warning for it
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Originally posted by Skydivernothing beyond pg-13 or r
no explicit sex, no f-word (she made me edit it out of one of my stories )
I've been reading the different and great ideas of Sam commanding her own ship and I think it's a very deserving idea.
I enjoyed Voyager which of course had Commander Janeway at the helm.
I can very easily see Sam in her place as she has the intelligence, experience and fortitude to command.
Scenerio: We see Sam sitting at the helm giving the order to begin the dialing sequence to open the Super Gate that they successfully won in battle from the Ori.
Ok there's where my little muse stops but the vision is there
They wouldn't necessarily have to remain space bound. My version compares to Atlantis and FireFly, which I really enjoyed, where they visit other planets and galaxies via both ship and super gate.
Hey, here's a thought. PTB, add Joss Wheadon to your writing team!
We'd really be in for a ride with Joss's writing only he'd have to leave out the angst in which he masters. The S/J shipper in me is all but angst out.
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Originally posted by Skydiverthere is a predjudice and double standard when it comes to classifying a fic as ship or gen
If you ask me, a great story deserves to be followed through with. Sam can kiss someone - even Jack- and not end up a stepford wife. The non-platonic aspects just as much as the action and adventure. But "ship" is a dirty word, so it doesn't happen. I'm not saying things need to descend into cliche-land, but... SOMETHING needs to happen. It's a paradox of some good writers in fanfiction that they're just too afraid to follow through. Too worried about peer pressure, about jumping the shark - which they already have when you consider the non-canon(ness) of the mounting UST/angst they deliberately built up way beyond canon. I don't know. Whatever it is, in SOME stories where this is the case, it ends up doing a disservice to the characters they've done such a GOOD job of writing so far. I guess what frustrates me is that I end up cringing and thinking, do it or don't do it, but FCOL, don't HALF do it.
Originally posted by Skydiverin shaz's fic, there are sam/jack undertones. but it's not the extent of the story. the theme/plot of the story isn't them getting together, it's them saving earth. hell, i don't think they even kiss in the end
mini(the whinging shipper)geekLast edited by minigeek; 12 May 2006, 06:15 AM.
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You know, I really don’t see it as being apologetic or ashamed that the fic is S/J, but as a piece of information about the fic. We’re all Sam fans here, and I’m glad when someone recommends a good Sam fic, but major ship in a story is just not something that I usually enjoy. To quote you, over the top ship makes me feel "twitchy and indignant". I’m a non-shipper so I really do appreciate that information when it’s given.
As far as the warning seeming to be prevalent on Samanda, this thread has stayed relatively neutral on ship, and IMO, because of that, both shippers and non-shippers can play here and feel comfortable. I know that I would probably leave if it tilted over to a lot more discussion of ship. There are other threads for that. Having said that, please don’t think that I mind when shippers express their feelings about S/J in a post. I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s just not my thing.
NC
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Originally posted by NearlyCircularYou know, I really don’t see it as being apologetic or ashamed that the fic is S/J, but as a piece of information about the fic. We’re all Sam fans here, and I’m glad when someone recommends a good Sam fic, but major ship in a story is just not something that I usually enjoy. To quote you, over the top ship makes me feel "twitchy and indignant". I’m a non-shipper so I really do appreciate that information when it’s given.
As far as the warning seeming to be prevalent on Samanda, this thread has stayed relatively neutral on ship, and IMO, because of that, both shippers and non-shippers can play here and feel comfortable. I know that I would probably leave if it tilted over to a lot more discussion of ship. There are other threads for that. Having said that, please don’t think that I mind when shippers express their feelings about S/J in a post. I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s just not my thing.
NC
I was saying people (of any persuasion) should not have to apologize for their good fic recommendations. Including those that showcase Sam and Jack.
I also said:It's more than just warning folks who don't like Sam/Jack when people make a recommendation. It's bigger than that. The undertone demands clemency; it's sort of saying, hey, this is S/J, BUT wonder of wonders ... it's also good. As though S/J as a concept deserves to be anathema. Who made that decision?
I don't want this to turn into a ship war here, and if folks are only reading bits and pieces of the posts, it may well end up that way, so I'm happy to take this to OT if folks want to keep discussing it.
I guess, when the posts get long (and I ramble with the best of 'em), people tend to skim and then they misunderstand the entire point being made - which can turn an innocent point into an all out war of preferences.
Not where I want to go - not ever!
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Originally posted by minigeekSee, I like gen fic, too. Gen Sam fic, especially. What frustrates me as a reader (and this is only sort of OT for the thread because it does pertain to Sam Carter in storytelling) ... I've read a lot of gen fic that builds a great deal of emotional angst between Sam and Jack, especially for Sam (as friends and colleagues of course, which is great ) - but they'll go far further with it than the series ever has or ever would, given the tenseness that it would create. They'll do that, great writing, great characters, build-up, great writing, great story, more buildup, more great plot/story .... and then ... and then... uh, nothing? Reset. It ends where it started with no notion of how they suddenly rewound all that angst. And the reason for that seems to me to be that it's somehow uncool to incorporate that aspect into the writing. It's perceived as a weakness for Sam's character - and that is the EXACT SAME FLAW that tptb have when thinking of her. They cannot wrap their heads around Sam as a woman AND a strong soldier.
If you ask me, a great story deserves to be followed through with. Sam can kiss someone - even Jack- and not end up a stepford wife. The non-platonic aspects just as much as the action and adventure. But "ship" is a dirty word, so it doesn't happen. I'm not saying things need to descend into cliche-land, but... SOMETHING needs to happen. It's a paradox of some good writers in fanfiction that they're just too afraid to follow through. Too worried about peer pressure, about jumping the shark - which they already have when you consider the non-canon(ness) of the mounting UST/angst they deliberately built up way beyond canon. I don't know. Whatever it is, in SOME stories where this is the case, it ends up doing a disservice to the characters they've done such a GOOD job of writing so far. I guess what frustrates me is that I end up cringing and thinking, do it or don't do it, but FCOL, don't HALF do it.
Exactly. And undertones are cool (like in Shaz's fic - which is freakin' awesome, btw!) ... if there are only going to be undertones, and the author can keep those undertones to canon, I love stories like that. It's when (unlike shaz's fic) they blow the undertones into HUGE UST sessions, and then do nothing in the end except blink and start a new day as SG-1, that I want to whinge and rave. I mean... POOR Sam!
mini(the whinging shipper)geek
Then you have to wonder well if I'm writing it cannon is it classified as Ship or not, sure they have the feelings, but since they are not going to act on them what kind of fic is it If you say its a gen fic, then you may get some people complaining its a ship fic. If you say its a ship fic, then you get some people saying that's not ship Oy sometimes you just want to write a story and not have to worry about how to classify it
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Originally posted by Mandysg1If you say its a gen fic, then you may get some people complaining its a ship fic. If you say its a ship fic, then you get some people saying that's not ship Oy sometimes you just want to write a story and not have to worry about how to classify it
See, in my (admittedly odd) world, Sam can be in an established NON PLATONIC relationship with (whomever) and it can still be a GEN fic. A piece of writing where we get good characterization for Sam, strength and everything else we've come to admire about her, and oh yes, tangentially, she's involved in a (gasp romantic!) relationship with another person, too. But that isn't what the story is about. It's a catalyst for her character. It adds spice and conflict to an otherwise exciting adventure/angst/drama/action narrative.
THAT is what I'm talkin' about.
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yeah, that's another issue. some writers, in the effort to entice as many readers as possible will clasify the least amount of sam/jack interaction as ship. when it isn't
to ME, a ship fic is one that focuses on the ship. if you take out the ship, there's nothing left of the story. if the whole theme of the story is sam and jack dealing with infertility...that's a ship fic. even if it's wrapped around another adventure. but if the whole fic is the adventure, and yeah, sam and jack are friends who both thought the other was dead...well in the case of shaz's fic, yes there are undertones, but it's not the whole story. In fact, when you get to the ending, you can read it shippy or you can read it genny. because the ship part isn't overwhelming and you COULD see it as 'two friends'
I personally don't consider most of my fic shippy. some are. but some also simply deal with issues between two friends, others deal with thier relationship and still others they're just co-workers
but people read what they want to read into a story
I mean i just saw a rec for a fic and they recc'd it as a sam fic...but to me, it's not. it's a daniel fic. it may have started out as an exploration of sam and daniel..but in the end, saintdaniel comes out and everyone worries about him and the sam/daniel in peril angle is lost to the need to take care of danny-wanny
but different people see different things different ways
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Originally posted by minigeekSee, in my (admittedly odd) world, Sam can be in an established relationship with (whomever) and it can still be a GEN fic. A piece of writing where we get good characterization for Sam, strength and everything else we've come to admire about her, and oh yes, tangentially, she's involved in a (gasp romantic!) relationship with another person, too. But that isn't what the story is about. It's a catalyst for her character. It adds spice and conflict to an otherwise exciting adventure/angst/drama/action narrative.
THAT is what I'm talkin' about.
i agree. she can be. but when you're getting harrassed by heterophobic people that HATE sam and jack to even talk to each other and get told countless times that any time they talk it must be classified as ship and that gen is personified by that 'pure and all abiding friendship between jack and daniel'.....well sam gets left out in the cold and the doublestandard is perpetrated
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Originally posted by Skydiveri agree. she can be. but when you're getting harrassed by heterophobic people that HATE sam and jack to even talk to each other and get told countless times that any time they talk it must be classified as ship and that gen is personified by that 'pure and all abiding friendship between jack and daniel'.....well sam gets left out in the cold and the doublestandard is perpetrated
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Originally posted by minigeekThat really bites, you know? Because it meansthere's less great S/J fiction being written and it means that manyauthors who are interested in it, and really could write great S/J into their fiction won't do it, or will tone it down to almost nothing, because of that weird stigma thing.
There. I said it. It really makes me whinge, eh?
But there's got to be a way to "un"black-list S/J. Especially because I think that Sam can explore some of the strongest parts of her psyche within that context, if it's well and respectfully handled. *sigh*
/end rant
I don't think the fact that people who recommend S/J ship stories on this thread and use the word "but" in their recommendation is an adequate indication that S/J ship fic has somehow been blacklisted. Nor is it an indication that fic writers aren't writing it anymore for fear of some kind of negative backlash. Yes, there is a large group out there that won't go near it, but there's also a large group who loves it.
There are a lot of reasons people might use "but" in the context of recommending a story. Given that this thread tries to remain ship neutral but everybody here likes Sam, there are a lot of S/J ship stories that aren't heavy on the ship. Therefore the ship is there and should probably be mentioned for people who violently object to it, BUT it might not be so obvious that people like NC wouldn't enjoy it anyway. So you get a rec like, "This is a great story, blah, blah, blah; it has a bit of S/J ship, BUT it's blah, blah, blah." The BUT is not an apology or blacklisting of the S/J ship, BUT rather an explanation for why anti-shippers might like it anyway.
In some cases it may come across as an apology, and in some cases it may be intended that way, but certainly not always. I personally don't think that S/J ship needs any apology or has any stigma attached to it. But I do think that pointing out that S/J ship is in story is a simple courtesy to those who don't enjoy it.
It's for the same reason that I accept the courtesy of labeling femslash stories for what they are. (Now if you want to start talking about labels that evoke strong reactions and will cut off the majority of your audience right from the start, we can discuss Sam/Jan stories... Now there's a pairing that apparently squicks everyone except Sam/Jan fans, who are few and far between.)
My LJ
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Originally posted by Strix variaGeek, you opened your trap, so now you're gonna have to live with the consequences.
Originally posted by Strix variaI don't think the fact that people who recommend S/J ship stories on this thread and use the word "but" in their recommendation is an adequate indication that S/J ship fic has somehow been blacklisted.
Originally posted by Strix variaNor is it an indication that fic writers aren't writing it anymore for fear of some kind of negative backlash.
Originally posted by Strix variaYes, there is a large group out there that won't go near it, but there's also a large group who loves it.
Originally posted by Strix variaThere are a lot of reasons people might use "but" in the context of recommending a story. Given that this thread tries to remain ship neutral but everybody here likes Sam, there are a lot of S/J ship stories that aren't heavy on the ship. Therefore the ship is there and should probably be mentioned for people who violently object to it, BUT it might not be so obvious that people like NC wouldn't enjoy it anyway. So you get a rec like, "This is a great story, blah, blah, blah; it has a bit of S/J ship, BUT it's blah, blah, blah." The BUT is not an apology or blacklisting of the S/J ship, BUT rather an explanation for why anti-shippers might like it anyway.
Originally posted by Strix variaIn some cases it may come across as an apology, and in some cases it may be intended that way, but certainly not always.
Originally posted by Strix variaI personally don't think that S/J ship needs any apology or has any stigma attached to it. But I do think that pointing out that S/J ship is in story is a simple courtesy to those who don't enjoy it.
Originally posted by Strix variaIt's for the same reason that I accept the courtesy of labeling femslash stories for what they are. (Now if you want to start talking about labels that evoke strong reactions and will cut off the majority of your audience right from the start, we can discuss Sam/Jan stories... Now there's a pairing that apparently squicks everyone except Sam/Jan fans, who are few and far between.)
mg
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Originally posted by Agent_Darkyes, but the ribbons have always been incosistent. It's nothing new
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Originally posted by jckfan55I like the idea of sending AT some sort of ribbon thing re: what Sam should be wearing not as an angry "how dare they not get it right!" thing, but more of a "Sam is heroic and we think she's earned all these decorations" kind of thing. Another way to show AT support from Samanda.
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