Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[minigeek]

I think it's usually the S/J shippers that are a bit apologetic about it. And I think that may be simply because this list has tried to keep S/J ship to a minimum. I bet the same apologies are not made on the S/J ship list. I know I try to point out when a good story has S/J ship in it because some people will like it and some people won't.

If you look at the stories on fanfic.net, the S/J ship stories still get an amazing number of reviews compared to most others, so I don't think that authors would shy away from writing it. From my perspective, anyway, it still seems to be hugely popular, but maybe I'm imagining things.

Well as I said, I was talking about in here, specifically. I feel like the culture here shuns it. It doesn't do so with other pairings for Sam. But there's a definite undertone of apology here when people make S/J fic recommendations. I'd started doing it too, and then one day I realized it and I kept thinking - WHY do I feel as though I need to apologize for this? There's definitely something to that. Because I like S/J when it's done well, but when i recommend it here, I feel like I'm doing an uncool thing. And I'm positive it's not just me. I'm just not that paranoid on my own.

[Skydiver]

well, i warned simply because there are folks out there that can't stand the ship angle...and since this story has it, warning for it is like reccing a sam/daniel fic where they end up in bed with each other

just common courtesy

however, you do have a point. the need to warn is a long standing one and goes back YEARS

to many in the fandon, sam and jack is icky. it's gross. it's silly. it ruined the show. ruined sam, etc, etc, etc

and since many of the folks that feel that way also ran - at the time - the major archives and lists, warning for any of that icky het stuff was mandatory. heck, in some of the archives these folks still run, sam/pete, jack/sara, daniel/shauri is ok to be listed as gen but ANYTHING with sam/jack in it MUST be relegated to ship (for the protection of all )

you get whacked around for daring ot rec a het ship fic enough times and you feel the need to warn lest you be the recipient of 'OMG MY EYES!!!!!!! THEY KISSED. OMG, IT WAS SO HORRIBLE, I'M TRAUMATIZED!!!!!!!!!!!!' (and i'm only exaggerating a bit )

what i'd personally LOVE to see...Gen sam fic.

no offense to the shippers at all. but most of the 'gen' writers only write daniel or jack or the pair. the only folks that seem to write sam are the shippers so pretty much every sam fic out there is s/j in some way shape or form

course another issue...in the eyes of many, any and all s/j interactin is ship. they can be talking about the weather and it's ship, cause you know, all males and females are just incapable of doing anything but flirting. whereas m/m interaction is automatically given the benefit of the doubt and it's not slash until someone swaps bodily fluids or makes a declaration of undying love

there is a predjudice and double standard when it comes to classifying a fic as ship or gen

in shaz's fic, there are sam/jack undertones. but it's not the extent of the story. the theme/plot of the story isn't them getting together, it's them saving earth. hell, i don't think they even kiss in the end

but that tiny bit of interaction is enough to get some crying 'icky het' and so shippers have a knee jerk reaction to warning for it

[SG1Poz]

nothing beyond pg-13 or r

no explicit sex, no f-word (she made me edit it out of one of my stories )

Thanks D

I've been reading the different and great ideas of Sam commanding her own ship and I think it's a very deserving idea.
I enjoyed Voyager which of course had Commander Janeway at the helm.
I can very easily see Sam in her place as she has the intelligence, experience and fortitude to command.

Scenerio: We see Sam sitting at the helm giving the order to begin the dialing sequence to open the Super Gate that they successfully won in battle from the Ori.
Ok there's where my little muse stops but the vision is there
They wouldn't necessarily have to remain space bound. My version compares to Atlantis and FireFly, which I really enjoyed, where they visit other planets and galaxies via both ship and super gate.

Hey, here's a thought. PTB, add Joss Wheadon to your writing team!
We'd really be in for a ride with Joss's writing only he'd have to leave out the angst in which he masters. The S/J shipper in me is all but angst out.

[minigeek]

there is a predjudice and double standard when it comes to classifying a fic as ship or gen

See, I like gen fic, too. Gen Sam fic, especially. What frustrates me as a reader (and this is only sort of OT for the thread because it does pertain to Sam Carter in storytelling) ... I've read a lot of gen fic that builds a great deal of emotional angst between Sam and Jack, especially for Sam (as friends and colleagues of course, which is great ) - but they'll go far further with it than the series ever has or ever would, given the tenseness that it would create. They'll do that, great writing, great characters, build-up, great writing, great story, more buildup, more great plot/story .... and then ... and then... uh, nothing? Reset. It ends where it started with no notion of how they suddenly rewound all that angst. And the reason for that seems to me to be that it's somehow uncool to incorporate that aspect into the writing. It's perceived as a weakness for Sam's character - and that is the EXACT SAME FLAW that tptb have when thinking of her. They cannot wrap their heads around Sam as a woman AND a strong soldier.

If you ask me, a great story deserves to be followed through with. Sam can kiss someone - even Jack- and not end up a stepford wife. The non-platonic aspects just as much as the action and adventure. But "ship" is a dirty word, so it doesn't happen. I'm not saying things need to descend into cliche-land, but... SOMETHING needs to happen. It's a paradox of some good writers in fanfiction that they're just too afraid to follow through. Too worried about peer pressure, about jumping the shark - which they already have when you consider the non-canon(ness) of the mounting UST/angst they deliberately built up way beyond canon. I don't know. Whatever it is, in SOME stories where this is the case, it ends up doing a disservice to the characters they've done such a GOOD job of writing so far. I guess what frustrates me is that I end up cringing and thinking, do it or don't do it, but FCOL, don't HALF do it.

in shaz's fic, there are sam/jack undertones. but it's not the extent of the story. the theme/plot of the story isn't them getting together, it's them saving earth. hell, i don't think they even kiss in the end

Exactly. And undertones are cool (like in Shaz's fic - which is freakin' awesome, btw!) ... if there are only going to be undertones, and the author can keep those undertones to canon, I love stories like that. It's when (unlike shaz's fic) they blow the undertones into HUGE UST sessions, and then do nothing in the end except blink and start a new day as SG-1, that I want to whinge and rave. I mean... POOR Sam!


mini(the whinging shipper)geek

[NearlyCircular]

You know, I really don’t see it as being apologetic or ashamed that the fic is S/J, but as a piece of information about the fic. We’re all Sam fans here, and I’m glad when someone recommends a good Sam fic, but major ship in a story is just not something that I usually enjoy. To quote you, over the top ship makes me feel "twitchy and indignant". I’m a non-shipper so I really do appreciate that information when it’s given.

As far as the warning seeming to be prevalent on Samanda, this thread has stayed relatively neutral on ship, and IMO, because of that, both shippers and non-shippers can play here and feel comfortable. I know that I would probably leave if it tilted over to a lot more discussion of ship. There are other threads for that. Having said that, please don’t think that I mind when shippers express their feelings about S/J in a post. I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s just not my thing.

NC

[minigeek]

You know, I really don’t see it as being apologetic or ashamed that the fic is S/J, but as a piece of information about the fic. We’re all Sam fans here, and I’m glad when someone recommends a good Sam fic, but major ship in a story is just not something that I usually enjoy. To quote you, over the top ship makes me feel "twitchy and indignant". I’m a non-shipper so I really do appreciate that information when it’s given.

As far as the warning seeming to be prevalent on Samanda, this thread has stayed relatively neutral on ship, and IMO, because of that, both shippers and non-shippers can play here and feel comfortable. I know that I would probably leave if it tilted over to a lot more discussion of ship. There are other threads for that. Having said that, please don’t think that I mind when shippers express their feelings about S/J in a post. I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s just not my thing.

NC

Yeah, I think you completely misunderstood what I was saying. You're defending being a non shipper - that had nuthin' to do with my post(s).

I was saying people (of any persuasion) should not have to apologize for their good fic recommendations. Including those that showcase Sam and Jack.

I also said:

It's more than just warning folks who don't like Sam/Jack when people make a recommendation. It's bigger than that. The undertone demands clemency; it's sort of saying, hey, this is S/J, BUT wonder of wonders ... it's also good. As though S/J as a concept deserves to be anathema. Who made that decision?

So you misunderstood my post completely if yer defending your right to not like ship, hun.

I don't want this to turn into a ship war here, and if folks are only reading bits and pieces of the posts, it may well end up that way, so I'm happy to take this to OT if folks want to keep discussing it.

I guess, when the posts get long (and I ramble with the best of 'em), people tend to skim and then they misunderstand the entire point being made - which can turn an innocent point into an all out war of preferences.

Not where I want to go - not ever!

[Mandysg1]

See, I like gen fic, too. Gen Sam fic, especially. What frustrates me as a reader (and this is only sort of OT for the thread because it does pertain to Sam Carter in storytelling) ... I've read a lot of gen fic that builds a great deal of emotional angst between Sam and Jack, especially for Sam (as friends and colleagues of course, which is great ) - but they'll go far further with it than the series ever has or ever would, given the tenseness that it would create. They'll do that, great writing, great characters, build-up, great writing, great story, more buildup, more great plot/story .... and then ... and then... uh, nothing? Reset. It ends where it started with no notion of how they suddenly rewound all that angst. And the reason for that seems to me to be that it's somehow uncool to incorporate that aspect into the writing. It's perceived as a weakness for Sam's character - and that is the EXACT SAME FLAW that tptb have when thinking of her. They cannot wrap their heads around Sam as a woman AND a strong soldier.

If you ask me, a great story deserves to be followed through with. Sam can kiss someone - even Jack- and not end up a stepford wife. The non-platonic aspects just as much as the action and adventure. But "ship" is a dirty word, so it doesn't happen. I'm not saying things need to descend into cliche-land, but... SOMETHING needs to happen. It's a paradox of some good writers in fanfiction that they're just too afraid to follow through. Too worried about peer pressure, about jumping the shark - which they already have when you consider the non-canon(ness) of the mounting UST/angst they deliberately built up way beyond canon. I don't know. Whatever it is, in SOME stories where this is the case, it ends up doing a disservice to the characters they've done such a GOOD job of writing so far. I guess what frustrates me is that I end up cringing and thinking, do it or don't do it, but FCOL, don't HALF do it.

Exactly. And undertones are cool (like in Shaz's fic - which is freakin' awesome, btw!) ... if there are only going to be undertones, and the author can keep those undertones to canon, I love stories like that. It's when (unlike shaz's fic) they blow the undertones into HUGE UST sessions, and then do nothing in the end except blink and start a new day as SG-1, that I want to whinge and rave. I mean... POOR Sam!


mini(the whinging shipper)geek

Hey whinging shipper oh I mean minigeek Yea you know some times it is difficult to write a fic that is cannon, there is that undertone of S/J ship UST of course but have to keep it far enough away from that kiss
Then you have to wonder well if I'm writing it cannon is it classified as Ship or not, sure they have the feelings, but since they are not going to act on them what kind of fic is it If you say its a gen fic, then you may get some people complaining its a ship fic. If you say its a ship fic, then you get some people saying that's not ship Oy sometimes you just want to write a story and not have to worry about how to classify it

[minigeek]

If you say its a gen fic, then you may get some people complaining its a ship fic. If you say its a ship fic, then you get some people saying that's not ship Oy sometimes you just want to write a story and not have to worry about how to classify it

Totally. And I wish more people would feel free of pressure and worry enough to be able to do that. I mean, the LAST THING an author should be worrying about while writing good characters in a good story is whether or not "the masses" will hang them over classification. If authors are doing that, what is it doing to their story ideas? I really have to shake my head at the vehemency of some sects of "fan culture" sometimes. It reminds me of schoolyard politics. Authors need to write whatever is in them to write. The proverbial "people" who pass judgement thereafter need, quite simply, to be ignored.

See, in my (admittedly odd) world, Sam can be in an established NON PLATONIC relationship with (whomever) and it can still be a GEN fic. A piece of writing where we get good characterization for Sam, strength and everything else we've come to admire about her, and oh yes, tangentially, she's involved in a (gasp romantic!) relationship with another person, too. But that isn't what the story is about. It's a catalyst for her character. It adds spice and conflict to an otherwise exciting adventure/angst/drama/action narrative.

THAT is what I'm talkin' about.

[Skydiver]

yeah, that's another issue. some writers, in the effort to entice as many readers as possible will clasify the least amount of sam/jack interaction as ship. when it isn't

to ME, a ship fic is one that focuses on the ship. if you take out the ship, there's nothing left of the story. if the whole theme of the story is sam and jack dealing with infertility...that's a ship fic. even if it's wrapped around another adventure. but if the whole fic is the adventure, and yeah, sam and jack are friends who both thought the other was dead...well in the case of shaz's fic, yes there are undertones, but it's not the whole story. In fact, when you get to the ending, you can read it shippy or you can read it genny. because the ship part isn't overwhelming and you COULD see it as 'two friends'

I personally don't consider most of my fic shippy. some are. but some also simply deal with issues between two friends, others deal with thier relationship and still others they're just co-workers

but people read what they want to read into a story

I mean i just saw a rec for a fic and they recc'd it as a sam fic...but to me, it's not. it's a daniel fic. it may have started out as an exploration of sam and daniel..but in the end, saintdaniel comes out and everyone worries about him and the sam/daniel in peril angle is lost to the need to take care of danny-wanny

but different people see different things different ways

[Skydiver]

See, in my (admittedly odd) world, Sam can be in an established relationship with (whomever) and it can still be a GEN fic. A piece of writing where we get good characterization for Sam, strength and everything else we've come to admire about her, and oh yes, tangentially, she's involved in a (gasp romantic!) relationship with another person, too. But that isn't what the story is about. It's a catalyst for her character. It adds spice and conflict to an otherwise exciting adventure/angst/drama/action narrative.

THAT is what I'm talkin' about.

i agree. she can be. but when you're getting harrassed by heterophobic people that HATE sam and jack to even talk to each other and get told countless times that any time they talk it must be classified as ship and that gen is personified by that 'pure and all abiding friendship between jack and daniel'.....well sam gets left out in the cold and the doublestandard is perpetrated

[minigeek]

i agree. she can be. but when you're getting harrassed by heterophobic people that HATE sam and jack to even talk to each other and get told countless times that any time they talk it must be classified as ship and that gen is personified by that 'pure and all abiding friendship between jack and daniel'.....well sam gets left out in the cold and the doublestandard is perpetrated

I guess what I don't get is - WHY and HOW does this harassment occur? Maybe I'm nieve, but lets say I write a Sam fic with some personal "significant other" in it, tangentially, for Sam. Why would one of those "heterophobic" people even read it? Nevermind harass me about it. Who reads a fic they don't enjoy and then HARASSES the author thereafter? How big of a NUMPTY do you have to be? Seriously. Harassment? No wonder authors are all twitchy. That's just INSANE.

[Strix varia]

That really bites, you know? Because it meansthere's less great S/J fiction being written and it means that manyauthors who are interested in it, and really could write great S/J into their fiction won't do it, or will tone it down to almost nothing, because of that weird stigma thing.

There. I said it. It really makes me whinge, eh?

But there's got to be a way to "un"black-list S/J. Especially because I think that Sam can explore some of the strongest parts of her psyche within that context, if it's well and respectfully handled. *sigh*
/end rant

Geek, you opened your trap, so now you're gonna have to live with the consequences.

I don't think the fact that people who recommend S/J ship stories on this thread and use the word "but" in their recommendation is an adequate indication that S/J ship fic has somehow been blacklisted. Nor is it an indication that fic writers aren't writing it anymore for fear of some kind of negative backlash. Yes, there is a large group out there that won't go near it, but there's also a large group who loves it.

There are a lot of reasons people might use "but" in the context of recommending a story. Given that this thread tries to remain ship neutral but everybody here likes Sam, there are a lot of S/J ship stories that aren't heavy on the ship. Therefore the ship is there and should probably be mentioned for people who violently object to it, BUT it might not be so obvious that people like NC wouldn't enjoy it anyway. So you get a rec like, "This is a great story, blah, blah, blah; it has a bit of S/J ship, BUT it's blah, blah, blah." The BUT is not an apology or blacklisting of the S/J ship, BUT rather an explanation for why anti-shippers might like it anyway.

In some cases it may come across as an apology, and in some cases it may be intended that way, but certainly not always. I personally don't think that S/J ship needs any apology or has any stigma attached to it. But I do think that pointing out that S/J ship is in story is a simple courtesy to those who don't enjoy it.

It's for the same reason that I accept the courtesy of labeling femslash stories for what they are. (Now if you want to start talking about labels that evoke strong reactions and will cut off the majority of your audience right from the start, we can discuss Sam/Jan stories... Now there's a pairing that apparently squicks everyone except Sam/Jan fans, who are few and far between.)

[minigeek]

Geek, you opened your trap, so now you're gonna have to live with the consequences.

Bring it.

I don't think the fact that people who recommend S/J ship stories on this thread and use the word "but" in their recommendation is an adequate indication that S/J ship fic has somehow been blacklisted.

Not "out there in general" perhaps, but here? In Samanda? You bet your bootie it has. How many readers or authors of S/J stories do NOT feel the least bit reticent and inspired to overqualify when they post a rec to their (or anyone elses' S/J) fic HERE in Samanda? Quite a few, I'd wager. I wasn't referring to the Sam/Jack lists out there. I was referring to here.

Nor is it an indication that fic writers aren't writing it anymore for fear of some kind of negative backlash.

Good fic writers ARE considering that. Take Denise and Mandy for example, who both just admitted it's a consideration for them.

Yes, there is a large group out there that won't go near it, but there's also a large group who loves it.

And here in Samanda, many among that group often feel reticent to admit that fact without extensive overqualification.

There are a lot of reasons people might use "but" in the context of recommending a story. Given that this thread tries to remain ship neutral but everybody here likes Sam, there are a lot of S/J ship stories that aren't heavy on the ship. Therefore the ship is there and should probably be mentioned for people who violently object to it, BUT it might not be so obvious that people like NC wouldn't enjoy it anyway. So you get a rec like, "This is a great story, blah, blah, blah; it has a bit of S/J ship, BUT it's blah, blah, blah." The BUT is not an apology or blacklisting of the S/J ship, BUT rather an explanation for why anti-shippers might like it anyway.

As I already explained to NC in PM, the ship warning information doesn't bother me a bit. It can and should stay there. I never intended for it to come off. What I'd like to see is the person doing the warning/caveat to not also feel embarassed (HERE) for even recommending a S/J fic to begin with. The warning itself can stay, it's not about that, it's about the apology that underlies it. And it DOES exist in many cases. Maybe not all cases, but many I've seen here. Non ship authors and/or readers generaly don't do a lot of ship fic recommendations, so non ship authors and/or readers wouldn't feel that reticence because they tend not to even go there to begin with.

In some cases it may come across as an apology, and in some cases it may be intended that way, but certainly not always.

Often enough that I think it's tangible and worthy of address.

I personally don't think that S/J ship needs any apology or has any stigma attached to it. But I do think that pointing out that S/J ship is in story is a simple courtesy to those who don't enjoy it.

And I never countered that. I agree completely.

It's for the same reason that I accept the courtesy of labeling femslash stories for what they are. (Now if you want to start talking about labels that evoke strong reactions and will cut off the majority of your audience right from the start, we can discuss Sam/Jan stories... Now there's a pairing that apparently squicks everyone except Sam/Jan fans, who are few and far between.)

It doesn't squick me. And I'm not a particular Sam/Jan fan. So your "everyone" doesn't apply there, either. Neener neener neener.

mg

[jckfan55]

yes, but the ribbons have always been incosistent. It's nothing new

I like the idea of sending AT some sort of ribbon thing re: what Sam should be wearing not as an angry "how dare they not get it right!" thing, but more of a "Sam is heroic and we think she's earned all these decorations" kind of thing. Another way to show AT support from Samanda.

[minigeek]

I like the idea of sending AT some sort of ribbon thing re: what Sam should be wearing not as an angry "how dare they not get it right!" thing, but more of a "Sam is heroic and we think she's earned all these decorations" kind of thing. Another way to show AT support from Samanda.

I agree jckfan. Even just as a fun keepsake. I think it'd be a sweet gesture to send an appropriate fruit-salad ensemble to Amanda. Especially if (someone far better at figuring out this sort of thing than I am!) were to discern what she should have and figure out what we'd need to do to get ahold of it!