Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[JenniferJF]

Actually,... what I was trying to say was that perhaps Sam hadn't dealt with her feelings over the way Jack behaved at being rescued, and since she always pretty much keeps her feelings to herself, but since she was now under the influence of "withdrawal", a little bit of how she felt over the whole Edora incident came out in her snapping at him with the "giving him an excuse to do nothing" crack. It was more about what Sam's "stuffed" feelings were rather than how Jack felt about staying or not staying on Edora.

Yeah, I think we're discussing something different. Because I don't think Sam really resented the way Jack acted on being rescued, because I don't think she really thought he did anything wrong. I think the discussion in The Light starts out being more about the fact a part of Jack is drawn to the simple life (hence his love for fishing) which Sam can't understand (yet) and which a part of her resents because she doesn't feel she can be part of a life like that. So it's connected to the Lara incident in so much as that's a part of Jack's life and personality she doesn't ever feel she can be part of (not only because of their professional relationship but because of who she is or thinks she is at this point) and it's an in-her-face example of how she can never have Jack the way she wants to have him. Which leads, IMHO, to the shift during that bit on the beach so that, by the end of the scene, they're no longer talking about anything at all beyond the pure UST of their desire for each other.

All of which I just said, I realize from previous conversations, from the bit about Jack not doing anything wrong at the end of 100 Days, through there being a part of Jack which desires that simple life, up to the bit about the scene on the beach ultimately being about their UST, nearly all of you completely disagree with. I'm just standing here as part of the lunatic fringe embracing the fact I'm out here nearly all alone in my interpretations

[Lady eliza]

hello

[Lady eliza]

Yeah, I think we're discussing something different. Because I don't think Sam really resented the way Jack acted on being rescued, because I don't think she really thought he did anything wrong. I think the discussion in The Light starts out being more about the fact a part of Jack is drawn to the simple life (hence his love for fishing) which Sam can't understand (yet) and which a part of her resents because she doesn't feel she can be part of a life like that. So it's connected to the Lara incident in so much as that's a part of Jack's life and personality she doesn't ever feel she can be part of (not only because of their professional relationship but because of who she is or thinks she is at this point) and it's an in-her-face example of how she can never have Jack the way she wants to have him. Which leads, IMHO, to the shift during that bit on the beach so that, by the end of the scene, they're no longer talking about anything at all beyond the pure UST of their desire for each other.

All of which I just said, I realize from previous conversations, from the bit about Jack not doing anything wrong at the end of 100 Days, through there being a part of Jack which desires that simple life, up to the bit about the scene on the beach ultimately being about their UST, nearly all of you completely disagree with. I'm just standing here as part of the lunatic fringe embracing the fact I'm out here nearly all alone in my interpretations

This is interesting.

[EvenstarSRV]

The scene where Sam and Jack are down in the cargo hold and sending the gate off to do its matter sucky thing on the sun is interesting, I think. Jack's line ("Well they say the first one's always the hardest") is delivered very uncertainly, like he's not sure that he should be saying it at all, and Sam's reaction is along the same slightly incredulous lines as her reactions to his other jokes in this episode, but it does settle her down. I think really that this scene is an illustration of what we see in Grace and Threads (*looks around for Jenn*), that this is what Sam needs from Jack - just to be there with her and for her. It doesn't matter what he says, it's enough that she knows he's there.

This scene is one of my favorite Sam and Jack moments in the series, and rather representative of their relationship to me. One of the aspects of Sam and Jack's interactions that I enjoy the most is how they are often in tune to the other's feelings, something usually seen and acknowledged with no or minimal dialog, like that moment about the black hole you mentioned. And I think it happens many times in the series, the beginning of Other Side, the end of Between Two Fires, POV, WoO, etc.

And in this scene, Jack notices Sam is uneasy and when she admits to her nerves at his questioning, his reply seems pitched to distract her from the stakes and significance of the plan (destroying Apophis's fleet and changing the balance of power amongst the Goa'uld) and focuses on the simpler and more personal part (it was her first time doing something, it's natural to be nervous). I think this is what helps them work and interact so well with each other because they help balance each other out, Jack settles Sam when she starts to over-think stuff and Sam nudges Jack back on topic when he sometimes doesn't take things as seriously as he should.

[Petra]

I know it's incredibly late for Exodus related comments, so I'll be quick.

I need to say that Exodus is one of my favourite episodes ever. It's teamy, it has great S/J interaction, it's got Jacob, other Tok'ra, Tanith, nice subplot for Teal'c, it's set on ship but they still use Stargate (yay!), there's some meaningful interaction between all the major players but there's also lots of action, space battles, the coolest idea ever to blow up a sun, great SFX (and I'm not one to get excited over them), some humour counter-balanced with drama..oh yeah, and our guys look particularly hot.

I'm not quite so keen on Teal'c in this episode though, I have to say. I know that he can get very single-minded, but somehow he seems rather extreme here, even for him. The way he completely takes over in the glider, utterly ignoring Jack and the rest of SG1, and almost killing both himself and Jack, does seem a bit out of character, IMO.

Actually, I think it's very in-character for Teal'c and it's not the only time it happens..remember The Warrior for example? Teal'c is the one who usually sees the big picture and is the least likely to be swayed by his emotions, but he has weak spots. R'yac, Shan'ouc, revenge, honour - all of them elicit very emotional responses from Teal'c. And the thing is, once he starts acting according to what his heart, not head, tells him, he becomes the most single-minded and ruthless member of the team. And that's what we are shown here. Personally I love it.

Jack on the other hand is pretty solidly in snarky and goofy mode throughout the whole episode, which I think can be put down to the fact he's with the Tok'ra, who he is never comfortable with. But I think it's also exacerbated by the fact he's with Jacob, and I think this episode really provides quite an insight into their relationship. Watching the two of them together (the long scene where they're walking round in circles through the corridors of the ship is a particularly striking example), there's an awful lot of tension bubbling underneath the snark.
*snip*

I snipped your post to save space, hope you don't mind.

It's a very interesting take on Jack/Jacob relationship, and I enjoyed reading it, but the only tension I noticed is caused by their differences as to how to wage this war. I just don't see any rivalry between them, conscious or not, nor any alpha male play. I've always seen their relationship as genuine friendship, trust and respect. Tbh I'm very relieved that the writers didn't go down the route of making Jacob suspicious of Jack's intentions towards Sam, being hostile towards their 'ship or throwing obstacles their way. I see it quite often in fanfic and it always seems very OOC for me.

As to S/J interactions, they appear to behave like they usually do, like they did in DJ. It's business as usual. They are a bit flirty at times, very trusting and comfortable around each other all the time, Sam smiles at his jokes and he is there for her when she needs his support.

As I mentioned earlier, IMO the events of Entity didn't truly sink in untill Jack almost lost Teal'c as well. He tries to distance himself throughout season 5, but after "Threshold". And while this change is most noticeable in S/J interaction, it's not limited to them; Jack also isn't as close to Daniel and Teal'c as he used to. But that's for season 5 discussion.

Speaking of which, are we going to do season 5 rewatch at some point?

And totally different question; I know it's been discussed back in season 1 rewatch, but not everyone was around back then. Anyway, I've just read an awesome Jack/Sara fic (set pre-series of course) and it made me think about what their life together must have been like. Any thoughts?

One last little thing, it's probably not the best place to mention it, but Annerb updated (finally! after almost a year of waiting!) her Wreckage apocafic. This just made my day!

[Rachel500]

Jack/Jacob

I kind of come down somewhere in the middle. I do believe that their relationship by around S4/S5 evolves to be more of a father/son-in-law situation whereas before that I'd always seen it more as a professional relationship - apart from the first meeting.

Because that first meeting is all about territorial posturing over Sam (a la Jenn's great gif). It's clear Jacob takes one look at Jack and immediately thinks 'UH-OH' and his Daddy-spidey sense goes into overload. Because I think it's clear to him that Sam admires Jack, that Jack admires Sam, that there is a vibe between them that shouldn't be there in a totally professional sense (isn't it also the case as someone pointed out on the Family thread way back that Jack getting Sam punch isn't exactly in line with CO behaviour?) so starts to worry. And I think some of that worry is probably down to a superficial similarity between Jack and Jonas Hansen (Sam's ex).

However, after Jacob gets involved with the Tok'ra, I think he gains a healthy respect for Jack during the events with the Retu and the other Charlie (and as a parent I think he has a lot of sympathy for Jack); by Seth he's professionally respectful to him, allows him to call him Dad and OK with Jack ostensibly being in charge of the mission regardless of the diff ranks.

By Jolinar's Memories/TDYK, I think Jacob sees how far Jack (and the rest of the team) would go for Sam, and he effectively adopts them all as an extended part of the family. It's also IMO really JM/TDYK where I think Jacob who's badly ill and effectively just sat back watching everything gets a clue about how much Jack cares about Sam.

And for me by S4/S5, Jacob is watching both of them and realising how much they care for each other but assured that nothing is going on that would jeopardise Sam's career, and the sense that Jacob has effectively subconciously placed Jack in the role of Sam's significant other. And it's really S5 onwards where there is that tiny push-pull between Jack and Jacob under the surface almost around Sam: with each doing their best in their respective roles to protect her. I can't even put my finger on it but that's how I interpret the relationship.

I actually think when Jacob comes back in S8, he's surprised to find Sam engaged to another man and about to marry someone else. Because I think despite his concerns about Jack and Sam, and their relationship, I think he always deep down approved of Jack as Sam's significant other, and possibly thought that one day they would get together. Because he knew Jack made Sam happy; because he knew Jack would always be there for her; because if he wasn't around, there would nobody else he would trust more to be there for her. And that's why, IMO, he works really hard in Threads to poke both of them into seeing that they're both unhappy and why.

Luckily, it works.

[JenniferJF]

First, well said here. I agree with what you've said. The 'posturing' I see between Jack and Jacob post S2-ish isn't true competition in a negative way, but more the kind between close male friends who respect each other more than anything else. In fact, I'd say one of the best things about the Jack/Jacob relationship is that, as Jacob is effectively outside the regular chain-of-command, we see Jack generally relating to him more as an equal than I think we see with anyone else (nearly everyone else we see Jack friendly with is either above or below him in a chain-of-command) I think it's clear by Seth there's a very real admiration and respect between the two men, and that only gets stronger through the years.

Jack/JacobAnd it's really S5 onwards where there is that tiny push-pull between Jack and Jacob under the surface almost around Sam: with each doing their best in their respective roles to protect her. I can't even put my finger on it but that's how I interpret the relationship.

I actually think when Jacob comes back in S8, he's surprised to find Sam engaged to another man and about to marry someone else. Because I think despite his concerns about Jack and Sam, and their relationship, I think he always deep down approved of Jack as Sam's significant other, and possibly thought that one day they would get together. Because he knew Jack made Sam happy; because he knew Jack would always be there for her; because if he wasn't around, there would nobody else he would trust more to be there for her. And that's why, IMO, he works really hard in Threads to poke both of them into seeing that they're both unhappy and why.

Luckily, it works.

I think this hits on what to me has always been the core of Jack/Jacob from Death Knell to Threads. Because, given Jack was quite literally the one out there for Sam in Death Knell when Jacob couldn't be, I think seeing that probably gave Jacob a sense of security in leaving Sam as he did after Death Knell. So I also agree that it was a huge surprise to him to learn she was engaged to someone else later. Jacob's leaving during this time also isolated Sam from her normal support chains, as did Janet's death shortly afterwards. I can't help but wonder if Jacob had stayed and Janet hadn't died if the situation with Pete would have gone as far as it did. Teal'c tried, I think, in New Order but he wasn't in a position to do as well at it as Janet would have (and Jacob eventually did). I also suspect some of Jacob's looks directed at Jack during Reckoning, and even a bit of his prodding, were intended to find out how Jack felt about Sam's engagement to Pete... and I suspect Jack's bitterness towards everything and everyone gave him his answer rather quickly.

[Diana Botsford]

Jack/Jacob

I kind of come down somewhere in the middle. I do believe that their relationship by around S4/S5 evolves to be more of a father/son-in-law situation whereas before that I'd always seen it more as a professional relationship - apart from the first meeting.

Jumping in (after a grueling week of too much work and not enough play!) to agree wholeheartedly with this. The scene in ENEMIES (the next episode) where Jack and Jacob argue over being pessimistic with Sam responding, "Welcome to my life!" is probably the best example of the burgeoning 'in-law' relationship you could point to. We also see other examples of this relationship later in the series such as when Jacob talks with Jack at the Alpha Site (Allegiance), lecturing him on why the Tok'ra DO have value (in addition to basically apologizing to Jack for Kanen's behavior).

From my perspective, whenever Jacob was in an episode, Jack seemed younger and wore his heart on his sleeve just a bit more apparently and I don't just mean in regards to Sam. It was like Jacob's presence took a weight of Jack...giving him a father figure in a way that Hammond couldn't supply.

[Rachel500]

<snip>

Jacob's leaving during this time also isolated Sam from her normal support chains, as did Janet's death shortly afterwards. I can't help but wonder if Jacob had stayed and Janet hadn't died if the situation with Pete would have gone as far as it did. Teal'c tried, I think, in New Order but he wasn't in a position to do as well at it as Janet would have (and Jacob eventually did). I also suspect some of Jacob's looks directed at Jack during Reckoning, and even a bit of his prodding, were intended to find out how Jack felt about Sam's engagement to Pete... and I suspect Jack's bitterness towards everything and everyone gave him his answer rather quickly.

I do think the fact that Sam didn't have any support structure around her with Pete was part of the reason why it lasted so long but primarily Janet rather than Jacob - because I think Sam might not have taken Jacob so seriously if he'd been around all the time she and Pete had dated (kind of it's Dad, of course he's not going to like whoever I hook up with) whereas when he comes back and gets immediately she's not happy, isn't approving - it has more impact with Sam along the lines of 'Really? You're going to settle for him? When he clearly doesn't make you happy?'.

If Janet had lived though, I think it would have given Sam that much needed girl friend to basically give her someone to talk things through with as I don't think she ever discussed Pete really with the guys (as in Daniel and Teal'c) on the basis that it would put them too much in the middle.

Although in my personal canon, Sam was if not quite gearing up to dump Pete when he proposes, was starting to cool things down (hence the proposal by Pete as a last ditch attempt to keep her). And it's the conversation with Jack that makes her think he really isn't interested in anything more with her at all and so she settles with Pete (edit: who I do think she loves in a way but not enough).

Jumping in (after a grueling week of too much work and not enough play!) to agree wholeheartedly with this. The scene in ENEMIES (the next episode) where Jack and Jacob argue over being pessimistic with Sam responding, "Welcome to my life!" is probably the best example of the burgeoning 'in-law' relationship you could point to. We also see other examples of this relationship later in the series such as when Jacob talks with Jack at the Alpha Site (Allegiance), lecturing him on why the Tok'ra DO have value (in addition to basically apologizing to Jack for Kanen's behavior).

From my perspective, whenever Jacob was in an episode, Jack seemed younger and wore his heart on his sleeve just a bit more apparently and I don't just mean in regards to Sam. It was like Jacob's presence took a weight of Jack...giving him a father figure in a way that Hammond couldn't supply.

Yes. Exactly what I've bolded.

And while I think Jack and Hammond did have a paternal relationship, I think the relationship with Jacob could be more overtly that way because Jacob wasn't in the direct chain of command and by S6/S7 had begun to consider himself firstly as a Tok'ra and then as an Earth general.

[Diana Botsford]

And while I think Jack and Hammond did have a paternal relationship, I think the relationship with Jacob could be more overtly that way because Jacob wasn't in the direct chain of command and by S6/S7 had begun to consider himself firstly as a Tok'ra and then as an Earth general.

Yep, Jack and Hammond definitely had a father/son thing going, but it was based on their military careers as the foundation of the relationship. With Jacob, Jack dealt with career issues, but when you fight side by side, other elements of what make you you (or in this case, Jack) come bubbling up. Shields come down a bit. I think Jacob could see into Jack in ways that Hammond couldn't....plus I'm sure Selmak was a help. ;-)

[JenniferJF]

Although in my personal canon, Sam was if not quite gearing up to dump Pete when he proposes, was starting to cool things down (hence the proposal by Pete as a last ditch attempt to keep her). And it's the conversation with Jack that makes her think he really isn't interested in anything more with her at all and so she settles with Pete (edit: who I do think she loves in a way but not enough).

I'm not sure about dumping him before the proposal, as I rather think she liked the idea of Pete, and 'Pete' a distance away in Denver as a concept and representative of 'a life' fit, imho, perfectly into her idea of getting a life without having to give up anything else.

I agree absolutely, though, on the idea that it was that conversation with Jack which finally drove her to accept the proposal (in fact, that's how I wrote it in my fic covering this period.) I think she was testing the waters in that conversation, giving Jack a chance to open up with an objection if he wanted to, and when he didn't she took it to mean he was no longer interested in her on any more than a professional or friendship level.

And while I think Jack and Hammond did have a paternal relationship, I think the relationship with Jacob could be more overtly that way because Jacob wasn't in the direct chain of command and by S6/S7 had begun to consider himself firstly as a Tok'ra and then as an Earth general.

Yes, that's what I meant by the idea that, because Jacob was effectively the only person outside of Jack's chain-of-command (cause even Daniel and Teal'c, technically, were under him), we get to see a side of Jack with Jacob we don't get to see with anyone else.

[Nynaeve506]

:: jumps in with both feet :: Sorry if I'm repeating anyone...

Sam/Pete

Sam's reasons for being with Pete are so complicated and we'll always be discussing them a we discover another layer. I think assuming that Janet wouldn't like Pete or Cassie wouldn't like Pete is fanon. I often wonder exactly how close Janet and Sam were - we know that they spent a significant amount of time around each other outside of work, especially because of Cass - but what did they talk about?

There's a lot of fanon that suggests that Janet and Sam talked about S/J but truthfully, IMO, I've always felt Sam's feeling for Jack were like a dirty little secret that everyone knows and no one's talking about. It wouldn't surprise me if half the reason Sam agreed to go on an initial date with Pete was if Janet urged her to accept (Sam mentions it to her, Janet says why not?) in light of what she *does* know about Sam and Jack. What fanon tends to forget is that Janet is an officer, not just a friend. On top of that Janet dies while Sam is still talking about Pete in a non-serious way.

Let's also not forget that Janet has her own issues with men (ex-husband being chauvinistic).

So Janet dies, Jacob's scarce, and Sam is left on a team of men, one of which she has deep deep feelings for - it makes sense that she would gravitate towards Pete (and I agree with Rachel - one of the reasons it lasted as long a it did).

Aaaand that's all I got.

[JenniferJF]

Sam's reasons for being with Pete are so complicated and we'll always be discussing them a we discover another layer. I think assuming that Janet wouldn't like Pete or Cassie wouldn't like Pete is fanon. I often wonder exactly how close Janet and Sam were - we know that they spent a significant amount of time around each other outside of work, especially because of Cass - but what did they talk about?

There's a lot of fanon that suggests that Janet and Sam talked about S/J but truthfully, IMO, I've always felt Sam's feeling for Jack were like a dirty little secret that everyone knows and no one's talking about. It wouldn't surprise me if half the reason Sam agreed to go on an initial date with Pete was if Janet urged her to accept (Sam mentions it to her, Janet says why not?) in light of what she *does* know about Sam and Jack. What fanon tends to forget is that Janet is an officer, not just a friend. On top of that Janet dies while Sam is still talking about Pete in a non-serious way.

Oh, I don't think Janet and Sam ever really talked that much about *Jack* per se. As you said, dirty little secret. I think it's clear after D&C, though, that Janet knows or, depending on what Sam actually said there, based on Sam's reactions alone has a pretty good idea about how Sam feels about Jack. But that's not why I think her being there would have made a huge difference in Sam's relationship with Pete. It's more that, at the time of Pete's proposal, I think we see Sam sort of floundering around and just as Jack approached her about acting differently, I'd imagine Janet would have as well. Especially given we saw Janet confront Sam back in 100 Days. I also tend to think Janet wouldn't have given up until she'd found out what was bothering Sam and - regardless of what happened with *Jack* - I suspect an outside impartial observer and friend would have been able to convince Sam that Pete was still a wrong choice because Sam didn't really love him enough for marriage.

[Nynaeve506]

Oh, I don't think Janet and Sam ever really talked that much about *Jack* per se. As you said, dirty little secret. I think it's clear after D&C, though, that Janet knows or, depending on what Sam actually said there, based on Sam's reactions alone has a pretty good idea about how Sam feels about Jack. But that's not why I think her being there would have made a huge difference in Sam's relationship with Pete. It's more that, at the time of Pete's proposal, I think we see Sam sort of floundering around and just as Jack approached her about acting differently, I'd imagine Janet would have as well. Especially given we saw Janet confront Sam back in 100 Days. I also tend to think Janet wouldn't have given up until she'd found out what was bothering Sam and - regardless of what happened with *Jack* - I suspect an outside impartial observer and friend would have been able to convince Sam that Pete was still a wrong choice because Sam didn't really love him enough for marriage.

And I can agree with it from that perspective - that Janet would have seen that Sam was clearly not all about Pete the way one should be all about someone if you're going to pledge a lifetime - but I don't think she would have disliked Pete as a person. That's the part I think is far more fanon than anything and why I think maybe she wouldn't have been opposed to Sam *dating* Pete (there's a difference when your friend is just starting to date a guy and when the guy proposes and you're basically contemplating your commanding officer as a deciding factor in whether or not you should accept).

[JenniferJF]

And I can agree with it from that perspective - that Janet would have seen that Sam was clearly not all about Pete the way one should be all about someone if you're going to pledge a lifetime - but I don't think she would have disliked Pete as a person. That's the part I think is far more fanon than anything and why I think maybe she wouldn't have been opposed to Sam *dating* Pete (there's a difference when your friend is just starting to date a guy and when the guy proposes and you're basically contemplating your commanding officer as a deciding factor in whether or not you should accept).

Yes on all counts which is why I've got the time of Janet's intervention as being Affinity. I'm not even sure Janet would have suggested she break up with him then, just advise her to go more slowly and to put off becoming engaged for now. Normally I'd suggest a relationship couldn't have survived a turned down proposal, but under these circumstances I can't see Pete leaving