Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[JenniferJF]

Another layer are the characters themselves, because while there's no doubt in my mind that Sam and Jack have been together since Threads, not resolving this very important for both characters arch on screen can be seen - and is, from what I've seen, as detrimental to them. Sam had this long incredible journey to discover what makes her happy and what role love and men play in her life and this journey never reached its conclusion on screen. Ditto on Jack.

And the irony is, I think it did. I really think - if the show had ended after Threads - that final scene with them fishing would have satisfied most people (except the really ardent demanding-BHK shippers and the I-could-see-them-in-bed-and-not-believe antis) that they'd gotten together. My husband and I weren't shippers at the time we first saw Threads - I couldn't have cared less whether Sam and Jack got together (I know.. right?) - and we both thought that's what we'd seen. I know many others that were the same way.

IMHO (of course) Sam and Jack's relationship as well as their personal growth (which I believe is essentially tied to that relationship) has rarely been overt on the show and the resolution we did see was absolutely in keeping with the way the rest of the relationship had been shown. So I do think they did the storyline - as it had and has been told - and the characters justice with Threads.

'Fishing' all along has been a metaphor for Sam and Jack's personal relationship, and I'm not just talking about sex here. The fact she finally accepted his invitation and the fact they went fishing together in Threads *is* resolution and confirmation. *Nothing* - not even a bedroom scene IMHO - could be stronger confirmation than that. Sort of like watching someone step off a cliff. I don't have to see them hit the ground to know they're going to eventually. (and.. yes.. I know...scifi. I'm talking RL here )

I don’t mind RDA leaving the show, I do mind how it was handled by the writers. As in: it wasn’t. Right till the end of the series we never heard *officially* where Jack was and what he was doing. We, on-line fans know because we read the interviews, the casual viewers don’t have a clue. A whole episode and frequent mentions where dedicated to Daniel, Hammond got a few scenes and explicit explanation, Jack got nothing.

Actually, having been more-or-less just a regular viewer until 'entering fandom' late during Season 9, I had no problem with how Jack left. It made sense to me (though.. granted.. I'd believed he'd decided to get together with Sam during Threads.) It seemed pretty clear to both of us here Jack had left the SGC to get him out of Sam's chain-of-command because they'd both finally decided (as we'd seen in Threads) to make their personal lives a priority. We figured that was also why Sam was initially not at the SGC. We figured RDA had left the show for *some* reason, and since AT had looked pregnant at the end of S8 we'd figured that's why she was gone for awhile. We actually thought it was rather clever to give the characters good concrete 'character growth' reasons which actually stemmed from long term character arcs for being gone rather than the sort of silly shallow excuses you get on most shows.

We didn't actually, I'll admit, as regular viewers *care* what Jack was doing in Washington, btw. It's the sort of detail I don't think most viewers really do care about.

When I entered fandom, I was astonished that it wasn't more widely accepted that Sam and Jack were together. I actually called my parents (also regular viewers) and asked them why they thought Jack left the show and they said, "He's with Carter, right?" so it wasn't just hugs and I, either...

Fandom I don't think really does represent a cross-section of the audience (not saying my family does, either, but I don't think simply because someone is believed by fans means it's the general interpretation of *most* viewers, either.)

Speaking of which...

You know, this is one of my pet peeves. It was made very clear in Secrets that while Hammond and Jacob’s friendship goes way back, George never knew Sam as a kid. She’s in turn surprised that they know each other and they have to explain to her how and when they met. There’s nothing on the show supporting the thesis that Hammond and Sam had known each other before she joined the program. Observation that she’s a lot like Jacob is easy to make after having known both of them for a few months, so it doesn’t prove anything. And Hammond goes into father mode very often with *all* members of SG-1, so it doesn’t prove anything either.

I stand corrected. I reviewed the transcript and hadn't realized when they explain that George and Hammond knew each other during the cold war Jack was off getting punch. In my memory I'd always thought that comment was an explanation to him, but you're right, it was to Sam. Jacob might have known *about* Sam but it is fairly clear she didn't realize Hammond even knew her father.

EDIT: Going back to 'fishing' - what I adore about Sam's using that as her personal password in LitS is that, all along, Jack's 'fishing' invites have been a counterpoint to his frequent comments about her needing to 'get a life' or 'take leave' or 'have fun...' and, as I said above, 'fishing' has been the metaphor for that personal life Sam was NOT having as she was putting her professional roles first. Her consciously using 'fishing' as a password for her personal files indicates that she, too, has realized exactly what was going on all those years and now - really - understands how important *fishing* (the full meaning) really is. Again, it's the subtle conclusion to her personal journey as well as her relationship with Jack so perfectly in keeping - IMHO - with the rest of it.

[Rachel500]

Secrets

Transcript as a reminder to anyone.

Spoiler:

HAMMOND
I invited Jake myself, Captain. I thought you might enjoy the surprise.
CARTER
Really, Sir. That's sweet.
JACOB
George and I served together back when the Air Force really was this country's first line of defense.
CARTER
It still is.
JACOB
Of course, it is. I was talking about when the Cold War was still, uh…Anyway, when George told me you were up for the Air Medal for your work in…
(to Hammond)
what the hell was that again? Um…
CARTER
Analysis of deep space radar telemetry.
JACOB
Right.

The way I've always interpreted that scene is Hammond surprises Sam by inviting her father. I very much interpret her surprise as surprise at finding her father being there at all not about Hammond's relationship with her father.

Jacob's words to Sam for me are partly meant to be a pointed reminder of his relationship with Hammond to emphasise why Hammond might have chosen to invite him even though the work Sam does is clearly highly classified (because let's face it, Jacob so knows the deep space telemetry thing is a cover).

For me, it's not a suggestion that Sam didn't know Hammond knew her father or that Sam herself didn't know Hammond on a personal level before the programme.

And given during The Tok'ra, Hammond clearly shows a personal concern for Sam and Jacob that suggests a close and long term knowledge of the family and its members...I'm more inclined to believe they did know each other somewhat before the programme.

EDIT: That's not to say that I think Sam and Hammond had a very close, personal relationship of their own. He's her father's friend and perhaps a childhood 'uncle' not a close personal friend of hers at the point the Stargate programme begins.

Obviously if someone else wants to interpret the transcript/the way the scene was acted and come away with something different they're certainly entitled to do so. But I wouldn't say it's canon that Sam had no idea Hammond knew her father.

[Petra]

Jennifer, you are preaching to the choir about the meaning of fishing in S/J ship I get it, really, and I agree.

And the irony is, I think it did. I really think - if the show had ended after Threads - that final scene with them fishing would have satisfied most people (except the really ardent demanding-BHK shippers and the I-could-see-them-in-bed-and-not-believe antis) that they'd gotten together. My husband and I weren't shippers at the time we first saw Threads - I couldn't have cared less whether Sam and Jack got together (I know.. right?) - and we both thought that's what we'd seen. I know many others that were the same way.

Ok, this is going to sound strange, but I kind of agree with you. If the show had ended in season 8 with Threads, I wouldn't have had a problem. I love this last scene and since I'm another shipper who prefers more subtle approach (hard to believe, I know ) I think it was perfect ending. And in contex of the first 8 seasons, it make sense and ends aforementioned Sam's journey.

BUT, and this is what I have a problem with, the show didn't end. We got 2 more seasons in which Sam never said she was already in relationship and the writers tried to sell her relationships with many other men. There were Sam/Cam scenes, and while personally I see only friendship there and zero chemistry, certain writer and director treated it as another ship for Sam. Then we find out that she apparently slept with Orlin - personally I've never seen it; that she had this grand romance with Martouf - again, what I saw was one-sided crush on Marty's part; that apparently she and agent Barret were an item (he tells her in season 10 that they must work out their issues or something to this effect; I had no idea there were some issues between them). And the way I see it, it's prolonging Sam's arch, because she still comes across as if she hasn't made up her mind.

Am I making any sense here? I know what I feel but I find it very hard to put it into words. I don't want to sound too negative, because I really do love the show, Sam, Jack and their relationship. But I also believe that the last 2 seasons did some damage to their characters, I can't help it.

When I entered fandom, I was astonished that it wasn't more widely accepted that Sam and Jack were together. I actually called my parents (also regular viewers) and asked them why they thought Jack left the show and they said, "He's with Carter, right?" so it wasn't just hugs and I, either...
Fandom I don't think really does represent a cross-section of the audience (not saying my family does, either, but I don't think simply because someone is believed by fans means it's the general interpretation of *most* viewers, either.)

I think it's cool that you and your family made this connection. Of course I agree that fandom absolutely cannot be treated as a representation of the general audience. And obviously I can speak only from my personal experience and what I've heard from other posters. As far as my mom and friends who were casual viewers are concerned, everybody was perplexed at Jack's absence. I would get calls like: "You know, I've just started season 9, where the heck is that Jack-guy? What happened to him?" I also haven't heard of anyone not asking these questions, that's why I assumed it would be a common reaction among casual viewers. I probably shouldn't have and I apologise.

Rachel, regarding Secrets, I stand by what I wrote. To me it's clear that Sam is surprised to know they know each other in addition to being surprised that Jacob showed up at all..but I won't argue over it.

[hedwig]

I see only friendship there and zero chemistry, certain writer and director treated it as another ship for Sam. Then we find out that she apparently slept with Orlin - personally I've never seen it; that she had this grand romance with Martouf - again, what I saw was one-sided crush on Marty's part; that apparently she and agent Barret were an item (he tells her in season 10 that they must work out their issues or something to this effect; I had no idea there were some issues between them). And the way I see it, it's prolonging Sam's arch, because she still comes across as if she hasn't made up her mind.

Personally, I've never thought that Sam and Orlin "slept" together during his stay at her house in "Ascension". There was never any indication of that. They had that energy sharing thing that Orlin did, which can be considered "intimate", but not more than that. Landry's inappropriate comment in one episode about Sam having been "intimate" with Orlin was undoubtedly referring to the energy sharing and nothing else. And young Orlin's comment to Sam about restarting their relationship, I took to mean nothing more than his former admission of having been in love with her. I never felt that Sam felt more for him than caring and concern for his wellbeing.

And in "Ripple Effect", Martouf may have been involved in a sexual relationship with AU Sam of his universe, but not with the Sam in our reality, so I don't count that relationship as anything between he and our Sam. That one gets totally confusing, since she killed the Martouf of our reality and was never involved with the one from the other reality.

And the "issue" thing with Barrett was nothing more than his own personal desire to be involved with Sam, since they never got involved either. When he asked her about Pete in one of the early Season 9 episodes and she said they broke up, he asked her if she was "available" and she said "not exactly". So for me, there was never anything more than poor Barrett's wish for a relationship with her.

And I thought it was interesting about the deleted scene where a kiss happened between AU Sam and Cam (in "Ripple Effect"?) because the director of that ep thought it should happen and when the dailies were shown, the writer (JM?) immediately pounced on it and got it removed.

It would have been just as easy to have a comment dropped here or there along the way referring to Sam and Jack being together. But, alas, no such luck.

[Cagranosalis]

Nice points hedwig. In canon Sam has only ever had a full on relationship with one person and that was Pete. And in canon, Sam has only ever had proper romantic (love) feelings for one other person and that's Jack. None of her so-called ex boyfriends / lovers / whatever ever really were and they were all one sided. She kissed Narim once, she went glowy with Orlin, and she liked Martouf in a not-at-all-creepy-and-confused-about-her-dead-symbiote's-feelings-for-the-still-iving-lover way. Or not.
I'm certainly not going to start getting upset over "other ship" in the stuff that never even made it on screen, like the Cam/Sam thing in Ripple Effect, or the throwaway comment of AT's on the Unending commentary. I don't accept the Trio deleted scene as canon either, as squeeworthy as it is. It never made it on screen so doesn't count in my little bubble, but I'm happy to accept the implication and the intent of TPTB to imply there was a relationship there, and it's a shame they never got the chance to make good on the promise of finding a way to show the same sentiment in S5.

The only moment I have any difficulty reconcilling is the near kiss with Martouf in Ripple Effect because I've heard plenty of explanations about why it might have happened but, frankly, none of them speak more of others making excuses for a rare bit of bad writing in an otherwise entertaining episode. I can forgive it though, for the ship that episode did give (the hints of AU Sams being in relationship with... someone else) and because, well, it's just a TV programme after all.


Chain Reaction: Nice review Shannon. It's not one of my favourite episodes but, like you, I too found this to be the moment I started grudgingly liking Maybourne. It's almost a pity we never got more of him, because the dynamic he has with Jack is excellent.
I thought Sam was a bit off character with her disrepsect to Bauer actually. It was a bit obvious even to him and I would have thought he'd have given her a dressing down for it.
Nothing shippy to observe here. Sorry!

[JenniferJF]

BUT, and this is what I have a problem with, the show didn't end. We got 2 more seasons in which Sam never said she was already in relationship and the writers tried to sell her relationships with many other men. There were Sam/Cam scenes, and while personally I see only friendship there and zero chemistry, certain writer and director treated it as another ship for Sam. Then we find out that she apparently slept with Orlin - personally I've never seen it; that she had this grand romance with Martouf - again, what I saw was one-sided crush on Marty's part; that apparently she and agent Barret were an item (he tells her in season 10 that they must work out their issues or something to this effect; I had no idea there were some issues between them). And the way I see it, it's prolonging Sam's arch, because she still comes across as if she hasn't made up her mind.

What's funny is, I actually see all those things as providing closure to all Sam's relationships. Because (as far as I know) it was AU Evil!Sam they'd proposed have a relationship with Cam, and since we don't even know who she was married to (though I suspect Pete), that has no bearing on our Sam (IMHO) except, possibly, to suggest if Jacob hadn't died and she'd ended up with Pete she would have been *less* happy than she was now with Jack in our reality - so confirmation she'd done the right thing in Threads. And I thought the fact she had *had* a relationship with Martouf in one reality but ended up with Jack suggested, again, she and Jack were and are just intrinsically right for each other (if AU's can have any bearing on our own). And even the almost kiss - if she hadn't been in another relationship, why would she have been so relieved she hadn't succumbed to the momentary nostalgia/Jolinar and kissed him? Same for the empathy over long-distance relationships she showed Martouf - I saw that as being far more real and 'close' than that she'd have had after Pete and suggestive she was with Jack now.

As for the Orlin thing... that more than anything suggested to me she was with Jack because, obviously, she didn't drop everything and promise to think about it when he was older. Instead, she looked vastly uncomfortable (which one would do having a child profess love) but she *also* sort of had a funny look which I took to indicate there was something she *wasn't* telling him - again, I think this indicates there was, in fact, another reason she was uncomfortable with Orlin's declaration. Unlike him, she had moved on and found real love and therefore wasn't available to him.

So, where you see keeping it open, I actually saw almost a deliberate 'curtain-call' allowing Sam to finally have closure with these various past relationships (cause before they'd died or left before she could) which allowed her to say 'goodbye' and, since she didn't seem truly tempted by any of them, I took that to suggest she herself had actually moved on and now knew who and what she wanted and it wasn't them.

And yes, I understand this is all subtle and requires interpretation. But, as I've said, I think this show - and this relationship especially - has always been Very Heavy on the showing and Very Light on the telling...

That said, in general, I do think they could have handled Jack's departure and the shift from the end of S8 to mid S9 better. While I personally really enjoyed Seasons 9 and Season 10 in general (in fact, and this may be considered blasphemy here, I personally find the run of episodes from Ripple Effect to 200 to be the longest most consistently good run in the show's entire run... but that's just me ), with the exception of Beachhead and EDM, most of the first half of S9 I find either cringeworthy or easily forgettable. I do think they handled the transition very poorly.

However, and this is simply reading between the lines, I also am not willing to place blame for this squarely on the shoulders of the creative TPTB. Many of the decisions that were made feel like.. uhm... Marketing and business decisions... and I tend to think they were more the reaction to certain 'suggestions' than true creative decisions because many of them *feel* like they came straight out of the 'TV-making For Dummies' book most other TV shows are written out of far more frequently

[JenniferJF]

Nice points hedwig. In canon Sam has only ever had a full on relationship with one person and that was Pete. And in canon, Sam has only ever had proper romantic (love) feelings for one other person and that's Jack. None of her so-called ex boyfriends / lovers / whatever ever really were and they were all one sided. She kissed Narim once, she went glowy with Orlin, and she liked Martouf in a not-at-all-creepy-and-confused-about-her-dead-symbiote's-feelings-for-the-still-iving-lover way. Or not.
I'm certainly not going to start getting upset over "other ship" in the stuff that never even made it on screen, like the Cam/Sam thing in Ripple Effect, or the throwaway comment of AT's on the Unending commentary. I don't accept the Trio deleted scene as canon either, as squeeworthy as it is. It never made it on screen so doesn't count in my little bubble, but I'm happy to accept the implication and the intent of TPTB to imply there was a relationship there, and it's a shame they never got the chance to make good on the promise of finding a way to show the same sentiment in S5.

The only moment I have any difficulty reconcilling is the near kiss with Martouf in Ripple Effect because I've heard plenty of explanations about why it might have happened but, frankly, none of them speak more of others making excuses for a rare bit of bad writing in an otherwise entertaining episode. I can forgive it though, for the ship that episode did give (the hints of AU Sams being in relationship with... someone else) and because, well, it's just a TV programme after all.

Know what I think was the REAL reason for that scene? And remember, the writer himself, JM, has admitted since then he believes Sam and Jack have been in a relationship since Threads (which means.. gang, in *his* mind, he was *writing* Sam-with-Jack in those scenes). Again - remembering it was JM - I *really* think it was a joke on us. When they broke off after almost kissing and Sam looked so relieved at the interruption (which is the bit which - regardless of interpretation of why they almost kissed though I'm still certain it was Jolinar - tells me there's a REASON she was relieved and thus indicates she's with someone else), I can almost hear the *gotcha* directed at shippers.

*shrugs*

I laughed.. but I may have almost as evil a sense of humor as JM

[Cagranosalis]

Know what I think was the REAL reason for that scene? And remember, the writer himself, JM, has admitted since then he believes Sam and Jack have been in a relationship since Threads (which means.. gang, in *his* mind, he was *writing* Sam-with-Jack in those scenes). Again - remembering it was JM - I *really* think it was a joke on us. When they broke off after almost kissing and Sam looked so relieved at the interruption (which is the bit which - regardless of interpretation of why they almost kissed though I'm still certain it was Jolinar - tells me there's a REASON she was relieved and thus indicates she's with someone else), I can almost hear the *gotcha* directed at shippers.

*shrugs*

I laughed.. but I may have almost as evil a sense of humor as JM

Actually, knowing JM's sense of humour, that's probably the best explanation I've heard. Knowing it was JM who wrote it and knowing how pro-ship he usually is, I always just assumed it was a slip of his usual brilliance but, yeah, massive wink at the shippers to wind us up makes sense!
I just never really bought into the whole Jolinar argument. I don't need to though; I'm happy to accept it is what it is.

[Petra]

You make an interesting argument Jenn, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

And for the record, I didn't mean JM (I know he was against PDL's interpretation), but RCC.

[JenniferJF]

And for the record, I didn't mean JM (I know he was against PDL's interpretation), but RCC.

When did RCC see another ship for Sam with Cam? The closest thing I'd ever heard was (I think it was him) saying Sam was acting 'flirty' with Cam at the end of Ark of Truth which isn't the same at all.

[Petra]

I can't tell you where I heard it (probably somewhere on the Critique thread, but I'm not sure), but apparently RCC wanted to ship Sam with Cam and dropped the idea after AT's protest.

And there was also the end scene in LITS (although it wasn't written by RCC, I know). I always took it as friendship and nothing more, but I know some fans took it as shippy. Just saying. *shrug*

Anyway as we won't convince each other, we should probably go back to the regular rewatch discussion.

EDIT: One more thing to clarify, as apparently I wasn't clear enough. My statements about Sam being in a relationships with Orlin, Martouf and Barret were meant as sarcasm. I fully agree there had never been any relationships and any feelings had been on the guys' side, not Sam's. Unfortunately in the last 2 seasons it was implied otherwise. That's all I meant. I'm done now.

[JenniferJF]

I can't tell you where I heard it (probably somewhere on the Critique thread, but I'm not sure), but apparently RCC wanted to ship Sam with Cam and dropped the idea after AT's protest.

lol. I do seem to recall having heard that, but I heard it from a troll so I took it for what it was worth, and no one ever cited a source making it not worth the paper it's printed on Considering RCC wrote Threads, I was never able to believe it.

Anyway as we won't convince each other, we should probably go back to the regular rewatch discussion.

Beating the dead horse? Its been an interesting convo, though, and since we've been actually discussing, at least we were on topic. But I agree.. hence the dead horse. No problem in disagreeing, though. 'Me too' discussions aren't half as interesting .

[hedwig]

I can't tell you where I heard it (probably somewhere on the Critique thread, but I'm not sure), but apparently RCC wanted to ship Sam with Cam and dropped the idea after AT's protest.

And there was also the end scene in LITS (although it wasn't written by RCC, I know). I always took it as friendship and nothing more, but I know some fans took it as shippy. Just saying. *shrug*

Anyway as we won't convince each other, we should probably go back to the regular rewatch discussion.

EDIT: One more thing to clarify, as apparently I wasn't clear enough. My statements about Sam being in a relationships with Orlin, Martouf and Barret were meant as sarcasm. I fully agree there had never been any relationships and any feelings had been on the guys' side, not Sam's. Unfortunately in the last 2 seasons it was implied otherwise. That's all I meant. I'm done now.

I don't recall where I read it either, but I do recall reading something about RCC wanting to ship Sam with Cam, but dropped the idea after AT strenuously objected to it. After eight years of all the hints and suggestions and more about Sam and Jack, she didn't want to be portrayed as being anybody else's "girl" (or love interest) after Jack left the show. I could be misremembering, but apparently RCC didn't know what else to do with Sam's character so "shipping" her with Cam seemed like the thing to do in order to have something for her character to do. I thought she did just fine without being shipped with Cam, thank you very much (even though she wound up in the background a lot).

[Rachel500]

Whereas all I heard was AT had been very specific about not wanting to be shipped with the next male lead when she returned in S9. Full stop. Nothing about RCC or about an intent to ship her. But rather that she had simply had the conversation of; been there, done that and Sam as a character wouldn't just move onto the next guy.

And I agree with Jenn: S9 for me was all about closing down the possibility of Sam being with any of these "others".

However, I disagree with her about the run of episodes from Ripple Effect...

Personally, I quite like that we all have different views. It would be very boring if we all agreed all the time.

[JenniferJF]

Whereas all I heard was AT had been very specific about not wanting to be shipped with the next male lead when she returned in S9. Full stop. Nothing about RCC or about an intent to ship her. But rather that she had simply had the conversation of; been there, done that and Sam as a character wouldn't just move onto the next guy.

lol. Now that I can see. Because AT's been around enough to probably have *seen* the TV Writing for Dummys ('Dummy's' can also be replaced with the word *cough* Net Exec *cough*) and so probably was savvy enough to know that there was a chance 'they' were going to try to ship Sam with the New Bright and Shiny Male Lead because that's what it said to do on page 1 of the Chapter: What to do with Your Female Lead.