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    Originally posted by Amaunet View Post
    I believe he did too, it's the same with the scene at the end in Lost City when Sam shows her desperation when Jack is put in the stasis pod. Oh and in New Order where they think Sam is dead and Jack has just been revived.

    EDIT: Hey i kind of unknowingly answered your post digitalred93
    Lost City. Check. Grace. Check...

    Thanks! I'll take any excuse to watch again.

    PS = Interesting thoughts about Daniel's disappointment with humanity. The differences between Jack and Daniel are so large at times. Unlike Daniel, I think Jack becomes disappointed with specific humans but appreciates the species as a hole. Otherwise, I don't think he'd do 1/2 of what he does. Sort of a flip flop from Daniel -- the two are definitely two sides of the same coin, though.

    I honestly have never seen a millimeter of chemistry between Daniel and Sam. To me, they're siblings. "The Wonder Twins."

    Gotta go pull out my DVDs. :-)
    Last edited by digitalred93; March 26, 2009, 05:13 AM.

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      Originally posted by VSS View Post
      Yes, it's very good. But our Treasury Dept. was working overtime this week so now USD have fallen. But they just got a bunch of snow in Big Sky, too, so come on down!






      Well, it started when he got decked in The Broca Divide

      But really, TBD virus wasn't just an alien influence- it allowed existing primitive behaviors to surface, it didn't create totally new ones. Like the guy in the briefing room who clearly didn't like Teal'c from the outset- the virus just disinhibited him to the point where he jumped Teal'c. So clearly Daniel has known since then that Jack had a thing for his 2IC.

      And Jack can be a Grade A jerk when he wants to be. I think Daniel is trying to protect Sam. I also think that he has a high opinion of Sam, and maybe just a little wishes she loved him instead (think of what he said to her in Fallen). He has a high opinion of Jack, too, in spite of their differences. I think he just believes Jack isn't right for her.


      But there's a line in BSG that was said to Pres. Roslin that applies to Daniel, I think- "You're their President....but you don't love people." That's Daniel. He's a very smart man, but he's in love with the concept of humanity, not with individual humans. I think individuals disappoint him, because he has such lofty ideals. I don't think he pays much attention to humans once he gets to know them- he likes them when they represent some abstract concept.

      So he isn't going to spend a lot of time comforting anyone. He's not that close to anyone with the possible exception of Jack.I think that's why he gets a little disillusioned as the years go by- human beings constantly disappoint him, and in the end, humanity does, too.
      Sweet (about the snow ) We got enough ourselves these past few days... I can probably start skiing down the coulees

      With Daniel and Sam..... I always thought that Daniel's first impressions of people always stay with him. While his feelings may change, the first meeting with him is everlasting. Jack was at his lowest in the origional Abydos mission, and Daniel witnessed that. Daniel knows what Jack can do if he gets to that point. While Daniel's and Jack's friendship has grown over the years, I think that still in Daniel's mind he remembers what Jack was prepared to do, and won't let go of it. Look at The Shroud.

      Spoiler:
      Daniel threw that Ba'al comment at Jack. Jack is very much the live and let die. What happened happened, no point talking about it. Daniel very much the opposite. He threw that out at Jack to get a reaction, but it hurt him/angered him.


      I'm not saying that Daniel is malicious and will use stuff like that to get a point across or intentionally hurt someone, just that he subconsciously remembers, and holds onto that info.

      I think that while Daniel truly cares for Jack as a friend, possibly an older brother, there's something about Jack and Sam together that irks him on some level, though he may not be fully aware of it. He knows how low Jack can go, and how much Sam has been hurt in the past. Perhaps it's the possibility of something happening to Sam and having Jack go downhill again, or having something happen (like a Ba'al incident) and Sam being hurt emotionally by Jack, that keeps Daniel from wanting them to be together.

      Sorry, I rambled...
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        Originally posted by digitalred93 View Post
        Oh, please... give me examples to watch. I'm looking for any excuse to watch this series again. Seriously.

        I'm a pathetic fan sometimes.
        Daniel tries to talk to jack saying 'no matter how this turns out Sam was right in trying to talk to them' in 'Entity'

        Originally posted by VSS View Post
        Yes, it's very good. But our Treasury Dept. was working overtime this week so now USD have fallen. But they just got a bunch of snow in Big Sky, too, so come on down!






        Well, it started when he got decked in The Broca Divide

        But really, TBD virus wasn't just an alien influence- it allowed existing primitive behaviors to surface, it didn't create totally new ones. Like the guy in the briefing room who clearly didn't like Teal'c from the outset- the virus just disinhibited him to the point where he jumped Teal'c. So clearly Daniel has known since then that Jack had a thing for his 2IC.

        And Jack can be a Grade A jerk when he wants to be. I think Daniel is trying to protect Sam. I also think that he has a high opinion of Sam, and maybe just a little wishes she loved him instead (think of what he said to her in Fallen). He has a high opinion of Jack, too, in spite of their differences. I think he just believes Jack isn't right for her.


        But there's a line in BSG that was said to Pres. Roslin that applies to Daniel, I think- "You're their President....but you don't love people." That's Daniel. He's a very smart man, but he's in love with the concept of humanity, not with individual humans. I think individuals disappoint him, because he has such lofty ideals. I don't think he pays much attention to humans once he gets to know them- he likes them when they represent some abstract concept.

        So he isn't going to spend a lot of time comforting anyone. He's not that close to anyone with the possible exception of Jack.I think that's why he gets a little disillusioned as the years go by- human beings constantly disappoint him, and in the end, humanity does, too.
        I agree whole heartedly with what you said And about Daniel loved humanity not the people i think its very telling in 'entity', even though Sam might have died, Daniel doesn't really care about Sam as much as he does getting to know other species out there.

        Originally posted by digitalred93 View Post
        Lost City. Check. Grace. Check...

        Thanks! I'll take any excuse to watch again.

        PS = Interesting thoughts about Daniel's disappointment with humanity. The differences between Jack and Daniel are so large at times. Unlike Daniel, I think Jack becomes disappointed with specific humans but appreciates the species as a hole. Otherwise, I don't think he'd do 1/2 of what he does. Sort of a flip flop from Daniel -- the two are definitely two sides of the same coin, though.

        I honestly have never seen a millimeter of chemistry between Daniel and Sam. To me, they're siblings. "The Wonder Twins."

        Gotta go pull out my DVDs. :-)
        Same here. Always reminded me of Star Wars...Jack being han solo, Sam being leia and Daniel being luke...


        Though when I think it all comes down to it, I think Daniel just wants Sam to be happy and if Jack makes her happy then so be it.

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          Originally posted by Toomi View Post


          Perhaps it's the possibility of something happening to Sam and having Jack go downhill again, or having something happen (like a Ba'al incident) and Sam being hurt emotionally by Jack, that keeps Daniel from wanting them to be together.

          Sorry, I rambled...
          Daniel does say in the episode with Machello that if he had a sister, he wouldn't let Jack anywhere near her. . .

          Your statement above probably does have some merit
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            Originally posted by leiasky View Post
            Daniel does say in the episode with Machello that if he had a sister, he wouldn't let Jack anywhere near her. . .

            Your statement above probably does have some merit
            I had actually forgotten that line! lol!

            I always got the feeling that Daniel just didn't "get" the underlying tension between Jack and Sam. I think he "felt" it; he knew it was there-but just doesn't understand it. In other words, why in the heck would those two be attracted to each other. I can almost imagine him rolling his eyes at the thought!
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              I'm so glad I happened upon this forum! Love all the discussion - thank you for letting me join in.

              All this leads me to wonder...

              IF there's confirmation in the 3rd movie, just how much of a confirmation it will be? Will Daniel witness it? I was surprised in Continuum when...

              Spoiler:
              Daniel, Cam and Sam meet Alternative Jack on the submarine and Daniel insists he was Jack's best friend. I might have agreed with that sentiment in earlier seasons but not so much later on because...


              He never really accepts Jack for who he is whereas Teal'c does. It's made abundantly clear throughout the series, particularly in the goodbye sequences in Lost City. The Daniel/Jack goodbye is barely a 'wibble' whereas the TWO Jack/Teal'c goodbyes (when Teal'c leaves with Bra'tac and then at the rings) are far more powerful. Plus, Teal'c seems to support and understand the 'thing' between Sam and Jack (like we do!). For me, it seems as if Teal'c was more a best friend to Jack.

              I was also surprised that Daniel played best man in the 200 wedding.

              From Jack's perspective, I would think he considers Sam his best friend. This is a key reason why I fell so hard for this ship, IMHO. He sooooo sees her as an equal (The P90 demo in The Warrior is just one wonderful example).

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                I'm not sure I'd say Sam was Jack's best friend... not yet. I think Jack's a really hard guy to be a friend to, and I don't think he feels he needs many friends. He's got 'co-worker buddies' but for friends, definatly the rest of SG-1 and most likely a few outside of work.

                I'm not a fan of the term 'best friend' as it just seems so exclusive. Friends are friends, and there's friends you're close with, and ones you aren't. With SG-1, they're all close friends. They've all saved each others lives many times, had to patch each other up, and gone through some terrible situations together. However each one is different. Jack talks to Daniel, when he's forced to. He doesn't talk to Teal'c, but at that point it's usually no words necessary. Teal'c either says whats needed to be said, or is just there for him.

                Sam.... well there's a friendship in any relationship, but I think that Jack guards himself around Sam more often than not, given their feelings for each other. Perhaps he's worried that if they get too close then he'll cross that invisible line and there'll be no going back. I can't think of any episode examples of him confiding in her in the later seasons, the same way he does to Teal'c and Daniel. (anyone else?) I think he tends to 'man-up' around her, and Sam doesn't push for answers like Daniel does.
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                  Originally posted by Toomi View Post
                  I'm not a fan of the term 'best friend' as it just seems so exclusive.
                  Good points and I think you're right (and I'm wrong). Jack really does keep to himself in his off time. He prefers his own company to a large extent.

                  I think the 'best friend' term came from...
                  Continuum Spoiler here:
                  Spoiler:
                  Daniel referring to himself as Jack's best friend.


                  I continue to find Daniel's statement there rather perplexing. Maybe it's Daniel who doesn't understand Jack as well as he think he does.

                  Still, I do very much enjoy how Jack treats Sam professionally. At least, most of the time. There's no question he tunes her out as well, when he's impatient or doesn't believe she's on the same wavelength he is in regards to seeking "the solution" to whatever their current problem is.

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                    Originally posted by digitalred93 View Post
                    Good points and I think you're right (and I'm wrong). Jack really does keep to himself in his off time. He prefers his own company to a large extent.

                    I think the 'best friend' term came from...
                    Continuum Spoiler here:
                    Spoiler:
                    Daniel referring to himself as Jack's best friend.


                    I continue to find Daniel's statement there rather perplexing. Maybe it's Daniel who doesn't understand Jack as well as he think he does.

                    Still, I do very much enjoy how Jack treats Sam professionally. At least, most of the time. There's no question he tunes her out as well, when he's impatient or doesn't believe she's on the same wavelength he is in regards to seeking "the solution" to whatever their current problem is.
                    You're not wrong No ones opinion is wrong. In a serious relationship, the significant other should be the best friend. If you're going to share your life with someone that close, you should be able to trust them, talk to them about anything and everything. At least thats the way I see a relationship

                    In Continuum:

                    Spoiler:
                    when Daniel refers to himself as Jack's best friend, I think it's perhaps Daniel who feels that Jack is his best friend.


                    Jack and Daniel have had lots of influence on each other, changing each other in the process. Daniel has 'toughened' up, and Jack has had his perspective on life changed. (just thinking back to the movie here...)

                    Daniel may have had some influence on how Jack and Sam interracted... Jack, for all his dislike of scientists and non military folk, accepted Daniel for who he was. At Sam and Jack's first meeting in the pilot episode, he basically looked her over, and proceeded to be rude and dismissive. Some folks say it's because he liked her right from the bat, but for some reason that scene always irked me. I think he just dismissed her as a female and scientist at first, then as they worked together Jack became more accepting, more open to her ideas, eventually trusting her. Had he not met Daniel (well, he'd be dead in the movie.... ) I don't think he would've given Sam that chance.
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                      Originally posted by Toomi View Post
                      You're not wrong No ones opinion is wrong. In a serious relationship, the significant other should be the best friend. If you're going to share your life with someone that close, you should be able to trust them, talk to them about anything and everything. At least thats the way I see a relationship

                      In Continuum:

                      Spoiler:
                      when Daniel refers to himself as Jack's best friend, I think it's perhaps Daniel who feels that Jack is his best friend.


                      Jack and Daniel have had lots of influence on each other, changing each other in the process. Daniel has 'toughened' up, and Jack has had his perspective on life changed. (just thinking back to the movie here...)

                      Daniel may have had some influence on how Jack and Sam interracted... Jack, for all his dislike of scientists and non military folk, accepted Daniel for who he was. At Sam and Jack's first meeting in the pilot episode, he basically looked her over, and proceeded to be rude and dismissive. Some folks say it's because he liked her right from the bat, but for some reason that scene always irked me. I think he just dismissed her as a female and scientist at first, then as they worked together Jack became more accepting, more open to her ideas, eventually trusting her. Had he not met Daniel (well, he'd be dead in the movie.... ) I don't think he would've given Sam that chance.
                      oo that's an interesting idea, I'd never thought of that Toomi
                      I'm not sure it's all down to Daniel, it is over a year later. But also because I do think Jack's a good guy underneath the military bravado and things. I think a lot of the 'militaryness and anti-scientist rant' that comes across in the movie - don't quote me haven't seen it in *ages* - is part of the angry-at-the-world-don't-care-who-I-piss-off suicidal Jack that we meet then.
                      I always kinda thought that maybe he was testing her. If Hammond's not letting him pick his team, but assigning this "Sam Carter" to his team he wants to know what she's made of, that he can trust her on his team and if she's worthy of being there. I know many people dislike the reproductive organ quote so I won't mention it but the salutation/rank comment does show she's not afraid to stand up to him. Not to mention the sense of humour you can glimpse at the half full/empty and major matt comments
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                        Originally posted by Toomi View Post
                        Daniel may have had some influence on how Jack and Sam interracted... Jack, for all his dislike of scientists and non military folk, accepted Daniel for who he was. At Sam and Jack's first meeting in the pilot episode, he basically looked her over, and proceeded to be rude and dismissive. Some folks say it's because he liked her right from the bat, but for some reason that scene always irked me. I think he just dismissed her as a female and scientist at first, then as they worked together Jack became more accepting, more open to her ideas, eventually trusting her. Had he not met Daniel (well, he'd be dead in the movie.... ) I don't think he would've given Sam that chance.
                        Personally I don't have any problems with this scene. Then again, I don't agree with the fandom's opinion that Jack had been a sexist till Sam proved herself to him. I believe what he says as an explanation is true: he doesn't have any problems with women (and seriously, if he had we'd have more evidence of this, and not just in regards to Sam, but to other women as well); he does however have a problem with scientists.

                        I'll go against majority here again, but I don't believe that Jack and Daniel became friends in the movie. Each of them gained respect of the other, Jack's surely grateful that Daniel helped him overcome his grief and stopped him from blowing everybody up, but that's a far cry from true friendship. For most of the movie they didn't really like each other and Daniel, a streotypical scientist must have annoyed Jack, a stereotypical soldier, to no end. Daniel eventually proved himself, but I can't blame Jack for not being thrilled with a prospect of repeating the experience. And as for him being rude - he wasn't exactly polite to Daniel when they met, was he? And he was even more dismissive of him, ignoring his questions/presence, than he was to Sam. So for the life of me, I can't see his behaviour as sexist, unless we assume he was also sexist towards Daniel

                        As for "the best friend" discussion. Personally, I think this comment in Continuum was a nod towards all the Jack/Daniel fans. but this is me, being cynical.

                        Anyway, you guys got me thinking. I've always thought Daniel was Jack's best friend - this is an impression I got in the pilot, but I hadn't seen the movie prior to the series - Teal'c's his brother, which for me counts as even closer than best friend, and Daniel and Sam are also like brother and sister (yep, I don't see any chemistry between them either). There was never any doubt that Teal'c's a shipper. I was also sure that Daniel knows about S/J thing and approves. I imagined him to be the person who'd encourage them with stuff like: "to hell with consequences" and "The Air Force can't tell you how to feel" (too much fanfic, I know ).

                        After having read your comments, though, I'm not so sure. I think that the point made about Daniel being in love with the concept of humanity instead of people is excellent, as is his surprise that they would be attracted to each other, and now it makes sense to me that he might not approve after all. Right now I'm on the fence here.

                        I also believe that Jack is Daniel's best friend, and Daniel assumes it's only natural that Jack sees it the same way. But while Daniel is usually the one who tries to get Jack to talk, Teal'c is usually more successful at this ("Grace" being a prime example) and that Jack's actually closer with Teal'c.

                        I'm not too sure if I can call Sam and Jack's relations "friendship". I think AF gets in the way here. They have to remember to behave appropriately at all times, they can't really see each other often outside of work without some third party (while we have plenty of examples of outside work meetings for everyone else on the team) and that doesn't really support "friendship". But I do think there's a huge potential for it.
                        Last edited by Petra; March 29, 2009, 01:59 PM.
                        There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                          Not sure how to explain this without confusing myself, anyone reading this, or jsut getting lost along the way...

                          Perhaps my use of the word 'female' in the bolded comment, was a bad choice of words.... I don't think that Jack was sexist, but when he joined the Airforce it was mostly men. He probably didn't work with many women on the 'front lines' for most of his career until this point. I'm not saying the Airforce is or was sexist, just that times and attitudes have changed.

                          I think I should have said that he dismissed her as a scientist at first, and perhaps was unsure/unhappy about having to work with someone he didn't know, a female scientist. Perhaps by that point he was unhappy about not being able to pick his own team that he was going to find fault with Sam any way he could. What if Sam Carter had been a guy? Would his reaction have been any different? I think it may have, only a bit though...He still would've mentally picked the male Sam Carter apart and found fault with whatever he could at first.

                          With Daniel and Jack's 'friendship' I too don't believe they became 'friends' in the movie. There's the kind of 'friend' that you work with, and form a 'bond' of sorts. You get to know them, even just a little bit, perhaps aquaintence is a better word. They're not the kind of friend you'd invite over for steak and beer. It's just someone you know, built a very small base for a friendship, shared an experience, and gone on with your life. I doubt that Jack spent much time wondering what Daniel was doing on Abydos once he returned to Earth. I'm sure he wondered everyonce in a while, but never pondered it. It wasn't until Daniel came back and they worked together a little longer that the base for friendship emerged and evolved. It'll be interesting in the rewatch to see how and when the changes in all the relationships occur.

                          I haven't seen Mobeius in a while so excuse any memory lapses.... but when the alternate timeline Jack ends up going on a mission with Kawalsky, and Daniel and Sam insist on going, Jack isn't too happy about it and makes several comments to Kawalsky and the other military folk with them. There was no foundation for a friendship with Daniel so he was equally rude to both of them.

                          I've decided I hate the word friend... it's to broad a word to define the oh so many different types of friends and friendship.
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                            Without getting into quotes but jumping into this exxxxceeelllent conversation...

                            I never saw Jack's initial reaction to Sam as sexist. I saw it more as a "I'm in the Stargate" club and you're not. From the moment they go to Abydos, he seems to treat her quite well, actually. And once the initial Chulak mission is over and she's demonstrated her worthiness (e.g. Claymore overkill saving their butts), I don't think gender became an issue for Jack ever again. What he had was an allergy to scientists. Heck, in the first film he felt that way so why wouldn't it continue on?

                            On the friend vs brother thing, I want to throw something else out here and see if the cat licks it up: Teal'c and Jack were brothers-in-arms. Daniel, IMHO, was more like the oftentimes annoying, younger brother. You could see it in how Jack would react to Daniel's meddling in affairs. Younger siblings can do that. Younger siblings are also dang good at playing moral compass roles though typical it's a case of 'Mom said to...' In Daniel's case, his moral uptitude (yeah, that's a made up word) could be downright obnoxious from Jack's point of view. However, he did care a great deal about Daniel and, as he said in 100 Days, Daniel's almost always right.

                            Considering how Daniel lost all his professional ties once he joined the program and how, in academia, professional ties usually also serve as friends, it's little wonder that he'd consider Jack his best friend. (I'm ignoring the idea that this was a tip from the writers to the fan because if it's said, then it exists). The problem I have with this logic, however, is the WAY Daniel says,
                            Spoiler:
                            "YOUR best friend" in Continuum.


                            The emphasis is on the YOUR which comes across as an implication that Jack views Daniel as his best friend. But then, it's Daniel's POV so of course, he could be wrong - or have things out of perspective.

                            Last note and a bit of an aside. Toomi: You stated you didn't think Jack thought much about Daniel after returning to Earth. I'd disagree with that largely because of how we are reintroduced to Jack O'Neill: looking through a telescope. Now, maybe he was thinking about the people of Abydos in general but I suspect he did wonder what Dr. Jackson was up to... far out there.
                            Last edited by digitalred93; March 29, 2009, 03:39 PM.

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                              Originally posted by digitalred93 View Post
                              Without getting into quotes but jumping into this exxxxceeelllent conversation...

                              I never saw Jack's initial reaction to Sam as sexist. I saw it more as a "I'm in the Stargate" club and you're not. From the moment they go to Abydos, he seems to treat her quite well, actually. And once the initial Chulak mission is over and she's demonstrated her worthiness (e.g. Claymore overkill saving their butts), I don't think gender became an issue for Jack ever again. What he had was an allergy to scientists. Heck, in the first film he felt that way so why wouldn't it continue on?
                              I'm not sure.... Emmancipation is the ep that immediatly springs to mind, and I'm sure there's some other moments in the first season that I saw as, well, not sexist... but certainly not the way he treated Daniel. (that doesn't make sense to me ) I'm sure when we do the rewatch it'll all pop back at me (or I'll change my mind )


                              Originally posted by digitalred93 View Post
                              Last note and a bit of an aside. Toomi: You stated you didn't think Jack thought much about Daniel after returning to Earth. I'd disagree with that largely because of how we are reintroduced to Jack O'Neill: looking through a telescope. Now, maybe he was thinking about the people of Abydos in general but I suspect he did wonder what Dr. Jackson was up to... far out there.
                              I think he was just checking out the stars... He does know a bit about astronomy (he talked about black holes in the ep where they found Cassandra) If he was 'looking' at Abydos he was probably thinking more about Ska'ara. I'm sure he did look up at the stars and wonder how Daniel, an Earthling, was faring on a planet far, far away, but I can't see him spending much time thinking about it.
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                                Originally posted by Toomi View Post
                                I'm not sure.... Emmancipation is the ep that immediatly springs to mind, and I'm sure there's some other moments in the first season that I saw as, well, not sexist... but certainly not the way he treated Daniel. (that doesn't make sense to me ) I'm sure when we do the rewatch it'll all pop back at me (or I'll change my mind )
                                You know... I had the same reaction to Emancipation the first time I saw it and then I just watched it again recently and noticed how Jack has every confidence that Sam will fight well in the last big showdown. Earlier in the episode, I think he's teasing her quite a bit about how the situation made life suck for her but I don't think it was ever a negative thing... just Jack having fun at her expense. He does that with everyone.

                                Oh and rewatch?? Rewatch?? I'd love to do a selective rewatch with hard core discussions. For instance, my day's treat was to rewatch POV. The series never explored any sort of fallout from that last scene (Jack kissing Dr. Carter) but certainly the entire episode has to play into the development of S/J in "the only reality that matters."

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