Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hlndncr]

Get ready for a massive multi-quote because I'm just too lazy to organize my own thoughts.

Review for “Sacrifices”

Upon watching this episode preparatory for this review, several things struck me as significant. I like this episode—I always have. But watching it in “review mode” brought me to scrutinize it in a way I have never done before.

Thanks for the review! (And the banner was by Sarai, just FYI.)

I thought I liked this episode, but it's been quite a while since I've watched it. Looking at it again I didn't like it as much as I remembered. I must have been distracted by the touching.

The Hak’tyl are interesting to me, too. Kar’yn makes a HUGE deal about Rya’c commenting on her beauty, insisting that his attentions in that regard are demeaning. But this meeting can’t possibly be the first time it’s come up. If she has accepted his compliments in private, what right does she have to throw them back at him in public? It would seem to me that they don’t communicate very well, in which case, Teal’c is right to be concerned for their happiness. If they were my kids, I would be, too! The argument that they have during their rehearsal is ridiculous—and I’m certain that Teal’c, watching from the shadows, felt vindicated about his opinions based on the tantrums that erupted.

That brings to bear my biggest concern about the Jaffa. This episode showcases their inept communication skills. Each of the arguments that they have is long on drama and posturing, and really short on the equal give and take of ideas. Listen again to Teal’c and Ishta’s first argument. Each and every one of their statements is phrased in such a way to deny reasonable and useful communication. Most marriage or family counselors will tell you that to argue effectively, it’s important not to use “you” statements. “You make me mad.” is nowhere near as productive to say as, “I feel angry when. . .” Ishta refuses to listen to Teal’c’s reasoning behind wanting to wait to confront Moloc—even though his vast experience with the Goa’uld should tell her that he might know something about the situation.

Every argument in the show is like that—even to the point where when Jack has to interrupt a massive fight amongst the Jaffa about going to help Ishta, it takes some serious yelling on Bra’tac’s part to quiet them, and Daniel is the only one who can iterate what’s going on. Is it any wonder that these people can’t seem to figure out freedom? They have to learn how to listen and share opinions and ideas before they can lead themselves and each other with equanimity.

Well I've never had marriage counselling either; so I think I'll give them all a break.

As far as Rya'c and Kar'yn are concerned I think a lot of their miscommunication and bickering just comes from being very young. I used to think a lot like Teal'c, and that getting married young was just asking for trouble. Now that I'm old and basically so set in my ways that it would be impossible for any sane person to marry me I have reconsidered my position. It's easier to fight when your younger, but it is also easier to make up and adjust.

Quite frankly I didn't like Teal'c much in this episode. He comes off as being very arrogant and self-righteous. He showed no respect for anyone else's point of view. For example, Rya'c was correct when he told Bra'tac that his strength as a warrior comes from fighting for wife and family and home.

And Ishta was correct to want to take out Molec. First, the Hak'tyl's primary concern were for the girls that were being sacrificed under Molec's rule. Even if another goa'uld were to take Molec's territories, the slaughter of innocent children would likely stop (we've certainly been given no indication that any other goa'uld are interested in continuing such a policy). So that is a vast improvement in the situation right there. Second, rebellion against one goa'uld would add to the ranks of free Jaffa fighting on the side of the rebellion and stand as a signal to others that a successful uprising is possible, especially against the minor goa'uld. Thus strengthening them to eventually stand against the more powerful system lords. Even if Ba'al did claim all of Molec's territories, he certainly didn't win the loyalty of all Molec's Jaffa and the military assests they control.

But what really strikes me is how hypocritical Teal'c's position is. We've been knocking off System Lords one by one for years. And it was those actions that destabilized the galitic power structure enough for the Jaffa rebellion to begin in earnst. Now he sounds just like Jacob talking to Jack at the beginning of Exodus when he said that the Tok'ra plan was to wipe out all the goa'uld once and for all only that's as far as the plan had ever gotten. Ironic really that now we are no longer allied with the Tok'ra we've taken up their strategy.

Jack:

This is Jack’s most “Hammond-like” performance to date. He’s in the background, appropriate for an episode very much not him-centric. The most important exchange (besides the shippy bits that I’ll talk about later) concerning him in this episode is in his ping-pong game with Teal’c. Teal’c is distressed by Rya’c’s choice in this matter, and saddened that his son didn’t consult with him before making his decision. Jack suggests just sticking his fingers in his ears and humming loudly, which advice Teal’c ignores.

Actually, I think Jack was giving some very sound advice.

Daniel and Sam:

They are largely background performers here, although they do have pivotal scenes in their favor. Sam is the one who ultimately provides the means to kill Moloc, with her missiles. Daniel acts mostly as a mediator.

Christopher Judge:

He wrote the script, and did a fairly good job, I think. He understands the Jaffa, and provides some interesting looks into their culture. Notable amongst these is the fact that they ultimately admit that some pieces of tradition need to be done away with in order to progress towards freedom. (I am intrigued what one would need with a sharp knife on one’s honeymoon, however.) His brother Jeff (who plays Aron), is a formidable looking dude, but I’m not overly impressed with his acting skills. I think that Chris Judge got the talent in that regard.

I like the working title of the script best, however—he really wanted to call it, “My Big Fat Jaffa Wedding”.

I think Daniel does an enormous amount of info dump type exposition and it shows. I really think this is one of CJ's weaker scripts.

And what's with Sam and Daniel hugging in the gateroom when they meet Kar'yn?

Sam and Jack:

There are a few notable places of shippyness in this episode. I think it’s funny how Sam doesn’t want to be the one to tell Jack that the wedding will be held on base. It seems that she’s a little sensitive about the issue (maybe getting cold feet already?), and she flees, making an excuse about finding a planet for the Hak’tyl.

Actually I do find it interesting that Jack is currently beseiged by weddings he isn't too thrilled about. And I do think it is somewhat odd that Sam's impending doom upcoming nuptuals are never, ever mentioned. She certainly seems to have put more time and planning into Rya'c and Kar'yn's wedding than she ever did her own to .

We’ve all watched and rewound and watched again the scene in the hallway where Jack grabs her arms. It’s cute and shippy and sweet. Squee! I also like when, surprised by the horse coming around the corner, he shields her with his own body. It seems unconscious to me—like he didn’t really mean to do it. It’s just his natural protective tendencies (ramped up whenever he’s around her) coming out to play.

Jack's not the only one doing the grabbing in that scene. It is so cute. Makes me wonder what they would be like when faced with plans for Cassie's wedding.

Also, during the wedding, they’re standing next to each other, and she looks up and over at him with this sweet little smile on her face. Now, if she were thinking about at the time, she probably wouldn’t have looked at His Hotness.

Of course, you can't blame anyone, happily married or not, for staring at His Hotness.

But I do love that line from Bra'tac: "May you love and fight like warriors" because it does describe Sam and Jack so well. And I believe Sam thought so too because that's when she looked over at Jack.

Well, in both those cases Teal'c wasn't married. Yes, Drey'ac was still alive in Crossroads, but she and Teal'c were no longered married. And while he was sort of dating Ishta they weren't married either, so it seems more like the idea of fidelity mostly applies to married relationships to the Jaffa.

What she said!

I think you make a good point here, and I think it's because for the longest time Jaffa society never really allowed for the free sharing to ideas or opinions. They seem to be a very hierarchical society, both in the military as well as within their families, I remember Teal'c expecting Drey'ac to obey him without question the first time we saw her in Bloodlines.

I think when they first met the Hak'tyl Teal'c explained that the women were trained to protect their homes, but the men were the warriors who went out to fight. I do believe it was a very patriarchal society.

I don't think Teal'c was being thoughtless or insensitive. He was talking about himself and how he personally feels about the situation with Ry'ac, and perhaps didn't think about Jack being sensitive to the issue - again, a Jaffa thing. And even if he did, it's been 9-10 years since Charlie's death, and as you say Jack has made a sort of peace with himself over the issue. So I think while Jack may have for an instant felt a sting at the comment, he realized very quickly that Teal'c meant nothing personal to him by it. Jack has had a lot of years to overcome being stung by somebody else's comment about that. People can't tread lightly around him on that subject forever.

I agree. I don't think Jack was bothered by having a conversation with Teal'c about fatherhood. And as I said before, I think Jack had some pretty valid advice. A lot of your kids dumb ideas really will go away if you ignore them, and if not, sometimes they just have to learn for themselves.

[Lucycat]

Great review for Sacrifices Akamaimom. Interesting discussion about it by everybody. You have all come up with such valid and in-depth points. My mind isn't so analytical. I tend to just watch, and fast-forward when I'm bored... which I admit, I did a lot in this episode. I suppose it's because I'm not a fan of Jaffa stories.

There was a Jack/Sam moment that wasn't mentioned in any of the previous posts. I loved the scene when, as they are doing their walk 'n talk down the hallway, Jack turns to check out a couple of female Jaffa. Sam instantly takes a hold of his arm and steers him away, in a very possessive manner... and Jack has a "D'oh, busted!" look on his face.

When they get to the end of the corridor and he grabs her arms, did you notice how flustered Sam was when they pulled apart? She obviously lost her train of thought when Jack had his hands on her!

Favorite Line:
(After Kary'n and R'yac fight during the wedding rehearsal)

Brata'c: I can see how one must rehearse these things (takes a gulp of wine)

[Catygirl]

Just new here but I have enjoyed your reviews of season 8. Just thought I would add some of my ideas.
Like those of you who have posted I feel the strangest thing about the whole season is the lack of reference to Sam and Pete, now before you all shout me down, I am not a pete fan but the writers brought him in and therefore I expected them to at least make it credible, and they did in the couple of episodes he was mentioned, except maybe Threads when it was obvious Sam was embarrassed by him. But it was the complete lack of him from first date, then to engagement with no mention and the first time the wedding is mentioned is just before she cancels it.
So Sacrifices suprised me on a few levels, one was the closeness between Daniel and Sam, the hug in the gateroom was odd to say the least. And then the shippy friendship that came up several times between Sam and Jack. Odd since she was engaged and had apparently decided Jack was not the one for her.
The absence of 'Pete' and anything outside the mountain for Sam in this series just made me want to scream at the tv. If they wanted Jack/Sam to be removed fair enough, I wouldn't agree but ok. But to then leave it all flirty between them at times wound me up.

Huh, it has been what 5 years since it was first out and I still get riled by it - wh'd of thunk it!!!!
Hope to be involved more and continue to enjoy reading others posts
Catygirl

[dipsofjazz]

Great review for Sacrifices Akamaimom. Interesting discussion about it by everybody. You have all come up with such valid and in-depth points. My mind isn't so analytical. I tend to just watch, and fast-forward when I'm bored... which I admit, I did a lot in this episode. I suppose it's because I'm not a fan of Jaffa stories.

There was a Jack/Sam moment that wasn't mentioned in any of the previous posts. I loved the scene when, as they are doing their walk 'n talk down the hallway, Jack turns to check out a couple of female Jaffa. Sam instantly takes a hold of his arm and steers him away, in a very possessive manner... and Jack has a "D'oh, busted!" look on his face.

When they get to the end of the corridor and he grabs her arms, did you notice how flustered Sam was when they pulled apart? She obviously lost her train of thought when Jack had his hands on her!

Favorite Line:
(After Kary'n and R'yac fight during the wedding rehearsal)

Brata'c: I can see how one must rehearse these things (takes a gulp of wine)

[Lucycat]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...acrifices2.gif

That's it! Love the scene!

And Catygirl, welcome to the discussion! You'll find out that most of us get riled up when we think of the horrible sam/pete thing. As for Daniel/Sam hug, I agree. It was kinda weird... they are good friends, but we don't usually see them so physically chummy.

I like the Sam/Jack moments because it shows that Sam, despite her engagement, still has feelings for Jack that she represses, but come to light in little ways... like the touching in the corridor, and the way she smiles at him (at Ryac's wedding) in the end.

[Catygirl]

yeah I agree with the idea that she hadn't forgotten him or was repressing, but still winds me up. Same with the situation in Lost City when she is supposed to be dating but goes to visit Jack. What I can never fathom is why she is still dating Pete after coming so close, in fact close enough that she almost tells him, to confessing how she feels about Jack. Not sure what that says about Sam, in a way not a good thing. Or maybe I am over thinking this?

[Rachel500]

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Endgame

Episode Summary

Walter and an unnamed technician are having a coffee break when the Stargate is beamed up. Daniel talks to them and gets nothing which he faithfully relays to Sam and Jack. Jack tells them to find out what happened and has an uncomfortable discussion with the President to look forward to.

Sam finds evidence on the video footage of the gate room that a scientist placed a locator beacon on the Stargate allowing it to be beamed up. The scientist has disappeared and Sam theorises that the Trust is behind everything. Tracking the signal to a warehouse they find nerve gas canisters which later they realise are filled with Goa'uld poison (the same poison that the Tok'ra created to take out the Goa'uld at the Summit years back). Having found an Area 51 badge, they go check out a project which has been looking at the wrist device found on Osiris but it is the genuine article.

They follow the scientists and Sam gets beamed up. Daniel manages to talk Bricksdale the Area 51 guy into giving up the information; he had found a way onto Osiris's oribiting ship and that's likely where the Stargate, the rest of the poison and Sam are all being held. With the Prometheus in orbit trying to find the cloaked ship, Daniel volunteers for the insane mission to go to the ship, drop the cloak and disable the hyperdrive. Unfortunately, after he drops the cloak he gets captured.

Teal'c having been stranded off-world through most of the episode and witnessing the deaths of many Jaffa, including M'Zel thanks to the Goa'uld poison, nevertheless manages to gate to the ship at just the right time and the reunited SG1 kick butt (Sam with her hands tied), not realising that Jack is being put under pressure to give the order to destroy the ship by Pendergast on the Prometheus. Jack can't do it and they (and the Stargate) are beamed back to the Prometheus just in time before the cargo ship enters hyperspace and disappears.

Back at the SGC, the gate is reinstalled as SG1 watches but they acknowledge that the Trust is out there with more of the poison and a ship. Daniel wonders out loud whether it would have been better if Jack had destroyed the ship when he'd had the chance. Jack walks away acknowledging it was a tough choice.

Favourite Scene
Teal'c walking out of the Stargate and the new SG1 team kicking butt.

Favourite Dialogue

Jack: So my stamp collection is safe. How does that help us find the gate?


General Discussion

This isn't one of my favourite episodes ever but I do have a soft spot for it because it did crystalise for me Jack's arc was about being too close to SG1 to make objective decisions.

I don't have a great deal of love of the Trust based stories but this kind of genocide actually did make them seriously bad guys in a way the mobster stuff involved in Covenant and to date really hadn't previously. And clearly there had been a lot of groundwork for this mini-story-arc: Affinity, Covenant, etc

Ultimately I think the execution both of the story arc and of the episode isn't all that well done in terms of this being the climax.

The other thing I want to note here is Daniel and Jack. Having read the other reviews something that has been pointed out is Daniel's seeming obliviousness to Jack's new position having changed things. This is another one of those times because while I think Daniel in the briefing room scene where he remarks that he wouldn't like to be the one to call the President was bantering with Jack in the knowledge that it would be Jack who had to do it, his remark at the end is back in oblivious land. Partially I think because he has no idea of the struggle Jack went through during those minutes when he was supposed to give the order to blow up the ship.

Sam and Jack

There's not a great deal of overt ship; there's some nice looks and exchanges in the briefing room scenes (particularly like the stamp collection remark) but ultimately not a lot of interaction. When Sam goes missing we don't get to see much of Jack's reaction beyond his set-up scene with Daniel for Daniel's mission. Here Jack does seem frustrated with being left behind and not being the one to do the insane mission.

Does Jack not shoot at the ship because of Sam? Well, I think Jack's decision not to shoot is based on his knowledge that Sam and Daniel are on board; in his hope and faith that they're alive. Personally, I don't think the decision to shoot or not to shoot is very clear cut in terms of right/wrong. If Jack had allowed the ship to be destroyed, he would have killed all of SG1 and blown up the Stargate (and possibly blowing up the Stargate that close to Earth's atmosphere may well have caused the ozone to ignite and the Earth to burn so...) but he has to live with the knowledge that the Trust has been left with the capability of killing thousands of Jaffa, some of whom will be friend (even if the formal alliance is over, Teal'c is still part of the rebel Jaffa) and not foe.

On a side note, I do think even though Sam gets captured, this is one episode in S8 that really showcased her as a competent kick butt woman (the second reason why Endgame while not being a favourite takes a soft spot in my heart).

[josiane]

Sorry for my lack of participation the last few episodes - having a bit of a crazy couple of weeks and haven't had time to give the reviews a proper read or consideration This is just a quick post to say that hlndncr realised that I had Gemini and Prometheus Unbound the wrong way round (or rather, my DVDs had them the wrong way round ), so the next review will in fact be Gemini, tomorrow, and then I'll post Prometheus Unbound on Monday.

I'm off to AT5 this weekend (heading out this evening), so actually that works a bit better for me too! Have fun discussing until I get back

[hlndncr]

Thanks for the review Rachel. Like you there are things I can like about End Game if I don't think about it too hard, but there are too many plot holes and not enough action for it to really stand out for me.

Favourite Scene
Teal'c walking out of the Stargate and the new SG1 team kicking butt.

I like that scene too. It reminds me of those days when the show began with the team going through the gate and exploring other worlds and kicking butt together. Remember those episodes? I'm having trouble picturing it at the moment.

Favourite Dialogue

Jack: So my stamp collection is safe. How does that help us find the gate?

My favorite:

Is it just me or does that look like an Asgard beam?

It does, which makes no sense. Why would they take our gate?

Yeah. Usually they ask nicely before they ignore us and do whatever they damn well please.

You can tell our relationship with the Asgard (and Jack's level of responsibility) has certainly progressed from the days when Jack's sentiments were simply "you've gotta love those guys."

This isn't one of my favourite episodes ever but I do have a soft spot for it because it did crystalise for me Jack's arc was about being too close to SG1 to make objective decisions.

It also shows for me that while Jack's responsibilities have changed he's still sort of holding on to his team. Jack still expects Sam to figure things out for him and fix the unfixable problem. She's not his 2IC anymore and she has her own team, but he still treats her like his right hand. Same with Daniel to a certain extent. He's the one doing the interogations and helping with the investigation of the missing gate (although since Sam has been given the job to figure it out it's logical she would use her team, ie Daniel in this case, to assist her). But Daniel also just doesn't treat Jack like anything's changed between them.

I don't have a great deal of love of the Trust based stories but this kind of genocide actually did make them seriously bad guys in a way the mobster stuff involved in Covenant and to date really hadn't previously. And clearly there had been a lot of groundwork for this mini-story-arc: Affinity, Covenant, etc

Ultimately I think the execution both of the story arc and of the episode isn't all that well done in terms of this being the climax.

I think my problem with the Trust is that it's sort of faceless and generic and therefore not very interesting. The NID had Maybourne and Simmons, with Kinsey in the background pulling the strings. These were all interesting characters in their own right that developed over time. The Trust really is just the dregs from these storylines and doesn't leave me with any real involvement or stake in the outcome. I think that's one reason they tried to tie it all back in with Kinsey later on, but I'll hold off on why I think that episode failed miserably when we get to it.

The other thing I want to note here is Daniel and Jack. Having read the other reviews something that has been pointed out is Daniel's seeming obliviousness to Jack's new position having changed things. This is another one of those times because while I think Daniel in the briefing room scene where he remarks that he wouldn't like to be the one to call the President was bantering with Jack in the knowledge that it would be Jack who had to do it, his remark at the end is back in oblivious land. Partially I think because he has no idea of the struggle Jack went through during those minutes when he was supposed to give the order to blow up the ship.

As I said before, I think in some ways for Sam and Daniel it's like there's been no real change with Jack taking over the SGC. They continue to fulfill similar roles. I would note that with Teal'c, however, you can see a difference. His loyalty was always to Jack and he followed Jack out of that loyalty. I'm not saying he wouldn't defer to Sam out of respect, but it is different; he was never a true subordinate. And Teal'c's own authority and influence with the growing Jaffa rebellion also makes him more than the soldier and intelligence asset he was to the team in the beginning. He's very much a leader in his own right (once again). So he's off doing his own thing and making his own decisions. For example, when he was at the Alpha site, Colonel Pierce advised and cautioned but never exerted any authority with Teal'c.

One thing that says to me is that Sam really needed a true subordinate, probably military (like Jack had in her), in order to really be in command of a team. She was too equal with Daniel, Teal'c had other responsibilities and concerns, and Jack was still dependent on her at the SGC.

Sam and Jack

There's not a great deal of overt ship; there's some nice looks and exchanges in the briefing room scenes (particularly like the stamp collection remark) but ultimately not a lot of interaction. When Sam goes missing we don't get to see much of Jack's reaction beyond his set-up scene with Daniel for Daniel's mission. Here Jack does seem frustrated with being left behind and not being the one to do the insane mission.

Actually, that scene bothered me quite a lot because neither one mentioned that Sam was missing and probably in enemy hands on that ship. I would think that would be a prime argument for Daniel to want to go and Jack to allow it.

Does Jack not shoot at the ship because of Sam? Well, I think Jack's decision not to shoot is based on his knowledge that Sam and Daniel are on board; in his hope and faith that they're alive. Personally, I don't think the decision to shoot or not to shoot is very clear cut in terms of right/wrong. If Jack had allowed the ship to be destroyed, he would have killed all of SG1 and blown up the Stargate (and possibly blowing up the Stargate that close to Earth's atmosphere may well have caused the ozone to ignite and the Earth to burn so...) but he has to live with the knowledge that the Trust has been left with the capability of killing thousands of Jaffa, some of whom will be friend (even if the formal alliance is over, Teal'c is still part of the rebel Jaffa) and not foe.

You know in the end I don't think it was such a tough choice for Jack. Personally I can't believe he would really blow up the ship with any of his people on it (but most especially Sam and Daniel), and risk losing the gate, just to nutralize what he knows is only a small part of the Trust. I think the hardest part was the waiting, not knowing what was going on and not being able to do anything.

On a side note, I do think even though Sam gets captured, this is one episode in S8 that really showcased her as a competent kick butt woman (the second reason why Endgame while not being a favourite takes a soft spot in my heart).

I do like Sam taking out the bad guys with her hand tied behind her back, but really there was no reason for the situation to come to that in the first place. So many plot holes; so little time.

[Lucycat]

Great comments Rachel and hlndncr! Here is my 2 cents (for what it's worth!)

End Game
Another Trust episode which are way too prevalent this season. This episode also showcases how different SG-1 is now compared to the early seasons. Daniel was captured way to easily (imo) and they didn’t do anything to commandeer the ship from the one Trust member that was left. Perhaps it’s true what they said on the commentary, they didn’t know if there were others on the ship… but, lets face it, such odds have never stopped them before, especially if it meant getting this ship back in the right hands. Also, I don’t agree with that statement… Sam was held on the ship for some time, I think she would have been able to gauge how many were on board. It’s all an easy plot device so the threat of the Trust was still out there. It just annoyed me.

Also, I think the symboite poison would have been a great weapon to use against the Gou’ld, on a smaller scale. I’m sure they could have developed a smaller device, like a hand weapon, that could be used in certain situations. We end up shooting most the the Jaffa guarding a Gou’ld, so how is that different? And why does the poison work as quickly on the Jaffa as it does the gou’ld? The symbiote isn’t attached to the spine or brain like in the gou’ld. We have seen Teal’c and Brata’c survive for hours at a time without a symbiote, when they were sharing one in the Changeling. So, if the symbiote dies within the pouch, why wouldn’t the Jaffa survive for a few hours as well? Just a thought.

I did love the scene at the end, with Teal’c coming through the wormhole and blasting the baddie. That was cool.

[hlndncr]

Great comments Rachel and hlndncr! Here is my 2 cents (for what it's worth!)

End Game
Another Trust episode which are way too prevalent this season. This episode also showcases how different SG-1 is now compared to the early seasons. Daniel was captured way to easily (imo) and they didn’t do anything to commandeer the ship from the one Trust member that was left. Perhaps it’s true what they said on the commentary, they didn’t know if there were others on the ship… but, lets face it, such odds have never stopped them before, especially if it meant getting this ship back in the right hands. Also, I don’t agree with that statement… Sam was held on the ship for some time, I think she would have been able to gauge how many were on board. It’s all an easy plot device so the threat of the Trust was still out there. It just annoyed me.

So agree with you on this part. Sam was beamed up and never even raised her weapon or prepared for threats as you'd think a trained officer of her experience would. Neither Sam or Daniel made any real effort to take back the ship, and Daniel could have easily disabled the drive controls when he took out the cloak, making it impossible for them to get away.

Also, I think the symboite poison would have been a great weapon to use against the Gou’ld, on a smaller scale. I’m sure they could have developed a smaller device, like a hand weapon, that could be used in certain situations. We end up shooting most the the Jaffa guarding a Gou’ld, so how is that different? And why does the poison work as quickly on the Jaffa as it does the gou’ld? The symbiote isn’t attached to the spine or brain like in the gou’ld. We have seen Teal’c and Brata’c survive for hours at a time without a symbiote, when they were sharing one in the Changeling. So, if the symbiote dies within the pouch, why wouldn’t the Jaffa survive for a few hours as well? Just a thought.

I did love the scene at the end, with Teal’c coming through the wormhole and blasting the baddie. That was cool.

Never thought about it, but you're right. Although, how long a Jaffa can live with out a symbiote seems to be rather plot contingent.

And just as another aside, I was thinking about the whole "insane idea" conversation between Daniel and Jack. Daniel sort of implied that he learned to use crazy plans from Jack, but really it was usually Sam who came up with the insane ideas. Jack was more about half-formed plans (elegant in their simplicity).

[Catygirl]

Ok so my two cents worth, for what its worth is that I really didn't like the Trust arc of storylines. And End Game really just seemed pointless to me. Sam got beamed up - did she plan it or not? I have no idea, whatever way it happened she then seems to do little to help herself until the end.
Am also with the person who pointed out the Jaffa poisoning bit. It really shouldn't have acted that quick. Hmmm not my favourite overall I have to admit. But great review and nice to have a conversation about it.
Catygirl

[Lucycat]

Never thought about it, but you're right. Although, how long a Jaffa can live with out a symbiote seems to be rather plot contingent.

And just as another aside, I was thinking about the whole "insane idea" conversation between Daniel and Jack. Daniel sort of implied that he learned to use crazy plans from Jack, but really it was usually Sam who came up with the insane ideas. Jack was more about half-formed plans (elegant in their simplicity).

If it's Teal'c or Brat'c, they survive longer than just a regular Jaffa! Those Jaffa should be wearing red shirts!

As for the "insane idea" Daniel has had plenty in his day, as well. You're right...Jack was mostly there to agree and help implement the crazy idea that the wonder twins (aka Sam/Daniel) came up with!

[Petra]

Hi guys! Sorry I’ve been MIA, but RL has been crazy! I’ve just moved into a new apartment and I’m still settling in, so I don’t have much free time. Therefore forgive me if I play a quick catch-up and go back to old episodes and discussions for a moment.

I will just say that while yes "kerry may be a great gal, Sam is a 'national treasure'" and that Jack has Sam on a pedestal, I do not agree that Sam has to step down and say "here I am". Jack is the one who put her on that pedestal; she didn't put herself up there. She doesn't even think of herself as being on one, so there is no stepping down for her to do. Jack has to realize he has put her there, and do something to realize what he's done and start looking at her as the real person she actually is ... a wonderful, regular person who happens to also be a genius. He's put an enormous burden on her by seeing her on a pedestal - somebody untouchable - somebody to be worshipped, but not touched (by him, anyway). I can't help thinking that even though it's a great compliment to say she's a national treasure, it's also rather insulting to her as the human woman she is that doesn't want that sort of title.

It seems out brain-sharing is experiencing temporary malfunction.

I can’t agree with this assessment. I never saw Jack as putting Sam on any kind of pedestal, just like I didn’t see her do the same for him post-CotG. I know that the notion of Jack seeing himself unworthy of Sam is very popular among shippers, but honestly, I’m a little baffled by this and I must side with Evenstar on this one.

The reason why I ship those two is because IMO they have real, deep feelings for each other. I don’t see how would it be possible for Jack to truly love Sam if he saw her as unattainable “national treasure” , some goddess to be worshipped from afar, and not as a real woman. Honestly, Sam is such a rich, well-rounded character that how someone can not see her as a regular – albeit incredibly intelligent and gifted – person is beyond me.

Big ditto here. Though honestly, I've never gotten the 'she's too good for me' vibe from Jack regarding Sam, he's always come across as a guy who was confident in his own self-worth to me.

Exactly. Jack knows that science-wise he’s not in the same league as Sam and Daniel but let’s be honest: who else is? And he’s a very smart fella in his own way. I agree with Evenstar that I just can’t see him lacking confidence or having a low self-esteem. If that was the case, wouldn’t he be a poor commander, constantly second-guessing himself and pondering “what ifs”? The way I see it, Jack is, in his own way, just as smart and intelligent as his teammates, knows it, and is secure in that knowledge enough to be able to play ignorant fool for his own amusement and usage. I don’t see him intimidated by Sam’s intellect, but being drawn to it and embracing it.

Well, in both those cases Teal'c wasn't married. Yes, Drey'ac was still alive in Crossroads, but she and Teal'c were no longered married. And while he was sort of dating Ishta they weren't married either, so it seems more like the idea of fidelity mostly applies to married relationships to the Jaffa.

Ah, see, I’m not so sure that they aren’t married. I mean yes, Drey’ouc apparently divorced Teal’c and married his friend, but the guy died and at the end of the episode she and Teal’c seemed to have reconciled. In the following years he was referenced to visit his “family” – not just his son.

Personally I tend to think that Teal’c was very much in the ”committed relationships” at the very least with both Drey’ouc and Ishta, but that the notion of fidelity isn’t very popular or held in high regard in the Jaffa society.

And I must be a bit of an odd-ball but I usually really like the Jaffa episodes. They make up the backbone of the series for me and one of my main disappointments with S9&10 was how the writers dropped the ball on that storyline IMHO.

At least you are not alone I too am a fan of the Jaffa episodes and share your disappointment in regards to their treatment in the last 2 seasons.

i haven't read all of the posts, but did anyone mention that it was originally intended that sam and alex had had a relationship years ago? i believe it's amanda that wanted to nix that idea. (hope i'm remembering this right)

If you are remembering wrong then I am too, because I heard the exact same thing.

Well, Jack's always been self-deprecating, and he especially seems to like poking fun at himself in order to get someone else to lighten up. But I think there's a long way to go from there to him fundamentally feeling inadequate or being unworthy of being loved by Sam. Jack's always come across as being self-assured in his feelings and abilities to me, he may not always act on them, but I've never thought he lacked any confidence in them.

Ditto. Quoted for truth.

I guess I just can't see any motive or reason for Jack to be jealous of Colson. He's the one that's worked closely with Sam for the past 8 years, that's forged a unique bond via their shared experiences. Colson is like that scientist from Bane, a scientific colleague Sam has occasionally collaborated with, but that's it. Is Jack really going to be jealous of every guy that Sam happens to know better than him?

And again, I agree. I must add though that I can see how somebody could interpret that line as jealousy, because it is odd and not something Jack would say, IMO. Personally I tend to write it off as being slightly OoC and ignore it.

PETE AND ENGAGEMENT

Right, we all know that I have some really unpopular views, don’t we? Here’s another one. I’m sorry my fellow shippers, but I really dislike this whole melodrama with the engagement and almost-wedding. IMO the writers should have never gone down this route. I love how the ship was written in the first 6 seasons, I have some issues with season 7 but season 8 from Affinity onward is really bad.

Firstly, although the situation gave us Sam’s tirade about what is expected of modern women which I do love and which is one of the very few redeeming things about the ep, IMO engagement/wedding doesn’t really belong in the show like SG-1. At least not in this form. Guys all have been married and it was never a big issue like it was written as for Sam. So I feel that the arch did her disservice as a character because, like hlndncr, I have no idea why Sam said yes. It doesn’t make sense either in the context of the episode which is all about her doubts or in context of her character. Sam may be a little clueless, or inexperienced, or in denial, or however you want to look at it – but she’s neither cruel nor stupid. She wouldn’t sacrifice her professional standing for a guy (kissing on the job) and she wouldn’t commit herself to a guy if she wasn’t sure she loved him – and we clearly see that she isn’t sure.

From this point on both ships (S/P and S/J) are written badly because, as someone noted, the whole issue is swept under the carpet up until Threads, despite numerous occasions to subtly continue this arch, and in Threads it also isn’t handled very well, IMO (but we’ll get to that).

Pete’s behavior is never addressed, which is a sore point for me.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m in the camp that was happy that Sam got to date someone who wasn’t Jack. I think her character needed it. I think the S/J ship needed it. I think both Sam and Jack had to try with someone else to really realize the truth about their bond and to make sure they weren’t simply settling for each other. And however badly it was written, I think San’s relationship with Pete accomplished that. It’s just that I happen to think that the whole engagement thing was totally unnecessary, because the goal had been reached even before Affinity, and this thing only made everything murkier and showed all the characters – Sam, Pete, Jack and even Daniel and Teal’c (why didn’t they intervene?) – in bad light.

ENDGAME

Oy, I hate this episode with passion. IMO it’s not as bad as PU, but it’s worse than Chimera, and that’s no small achievement.

This isn't one of my favourite episodes ever but I do have a soft spot for it because it did crystalise for me Jack's arc was about being too close to SG1 to make objective decisions.

It’s an interesting idea, but I don’t agree that season 8 has been about Jack being too close to SG-1. Again, I tend to write this particular incident, along with the one from New Order, as the writers having the characters behave distinctly OOC in order to further the plot. The same was done with Sam in Gemini and Affinity, with Daniel and Teal’c in Affinity, and now it’s Jack’s turn. The writers needed the Trust operatives to get away so they could return snaked in Full Alert and voila, Jack is suddenly unable to make a decision like the ones he’d been making for the prior 7+ years. It doesn’t make any sense to me. In the past he’s shot Sam, blown up Daniel, let Teal’c be tortured and now he can’t take it anymore? Yeah, right.

I don't have a great deal of love of the Trust based stories but this kind of genocide actually did make them seriously bad guys in a way the mobster stuff involved in Covenant and to date really hadn't previously. And clearly there had been a lot of groundwork for this mini-story-arc: Affinity, Covenant, etc

And this is why I hate this episode so much. It’s the episode about genocide in which genocide is an afterthought, never explored, dealt with or even seriously pondered. No words can describe how much I despise it.

Personally, I don't think the decision to shoot or not to shoot is very clear cut in terms of right/wrong. If Jack had allowed the ship to be destroyed, he would have killed all of SG1 and blown up the Stargate (and possibly blowing up the Stargate that close to Earth's atmosphere may well have caused the ozone to ignite and the Earth to burn so...)

Just a quick question: how would shooting at the ship blow up Stargate? Nothing of the sort happened when SG-1 blew up Apophis’ ha’taks in the season 2 premiere and that explosion was much bigger. Heck, meteor hitting Stargate didn’t cause its explosion…

On a side note, I do think even though Sam gets captured, this is one episode in S8 that really showcased her as a competent kick butt woman (the second reason why Endgame while not being a favourite takes a soft spot in my heart).

If Sam was indeed a kick-ass woman in this episode it was made forgettable by that ridiculous leather outfit she wore. Another thing I hated. Have I mentioned how much I hate Coop’s pathetic attempts to sex-up the show?

[majorsal]

PETE AND ENGAGEMENT

Right, we all know that I have some really unpopular views, don’t we? Here’s another one. I’m sorry my fellow shippers, but I really dislike this whole melodrama with the engagement and almost-wedding. IMO the writers should have never gone down this route. I love how the ship was written in the first 6 seasons, I have some issues with season 7 but season 8 from Affinity onward is really bad.

Firstly, although the situation gave us Sam’s tirade about what is expected of modern women which I do love and which is one of the very few redeeming things about the ep, IMO engagement/wedding doesn’t really belong in the show like SG-1. At least not in this form. Guys all have been married and it was never a big issue like it was written as for Sam. So I feel that the arch did her disservice as a character because, like hlndncr, I have no idea why Sam said yes. It doesn’t make sense either in the context of the episode which is all about her doubts or in context of her character. Sam may be a little clueless, or inexperienced, or in denial, or however you want to look at it – but she’s neither cruel nor stupid. She wouldn’t sacrifice her professional standing for a guy (kissing on the job) and she wouldn’t commit herself to a guy if she wasn’t sure she loved him – and we clearly see that she isn’t sure.

From this point on both ships (S/P and S/J) are written badly because, as someone noted, the whole issue is swept under the carpet up until Threads, despite numerous occasions to subtly continue this arch, and in Threads it also isn’t handled very well, IMO (but we’ll get to that).

Pete’s behavior is never addressed, which is a sore point for me.

on the bolded(s): YES!

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m in the camp that was happy that Sam got to date someone who wasn’t Jack. I think her character needed it. I think the S/J ship needed it. I think both Sam and Jack had to try with someone else to really realize the truth about their bond and to make sure they weren’t simply settling for each other.

i like the way you stated that. while i didn't want to 'see' sam and jack with anyone else, i think you were right, that they themselves needed to make sure their feelings for one another were real, and not the side effect of being in a unit together and experiencing such intense bonding moments and feelings. almost dying together i'd imagine would bond you to another person quite a bit.

they needed to see their feelings were real. i just think this could have been accomplished without the usual tv syndrome of 'others'.

And however badly it was written, I think San’s relationship with Pete accomplished that. It’s just that I happen to think that the whole engagement thing was totally unnecessary, because the goal had been reached even before Affinity, and this thing only made everything murkier and showed all the characters – Sam, Pete, Jack and even Daniel and Teal’c (why didn’t they intervene?) – in bad light.

yes!

to watch 'lost city', and see how they both reacted to one another... how could anyone believe that sam would *still* be with another man after that!?

'chimera' might have broken my heart as a shipper, but 'affinity' made me doubt the writers and their 'agenda'...