Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[leiasky]

Well, there's his prop ID, and then there is the ID that they pop up on screen in, was it, Entity?

[Nynaeve506]

That's what I always thought, until I saw his ID somewhere with John on it. Which actually would be a better choice because in the 1950's Jonathan was a very unusual name and John was really common, and now it's the reverse.

He's billed as Jonathan in the credits of AoT.

[leiasky]

He's billed as Jonathan in the credits of AoT.

You mean Continuum? He wasn't in AoT. If he was, I'd have likely enjoyed it a whole lot more than I did! LOL!

And it's listed as John in Entity. LOL!

[Aveo_amacus]

I'm not sure which, but Jack wouldn't be his middle name. Jack was a common shortening/nickname of John, but I don't think it was really used for Jonathon (but I'm sure it would be possible to find people who used it!)

if it was in continuum then bear in mind that there were several mistakes in the continuum credits as both Mitchell and Carter were supposed to be Colonels and they were credited as Lt. Colonels

[VSS]

He's billed as Jonathan in the credits of AoT.

That seems like pretty good proof, too.
Although Sam & Cam were listed as Lt. Colonels in COntinuum, weren't they? Although there's a reason for that!

Thanks guys!

[VSS]

I'm not sure which, but Jack wouldn't be his middle name. Jack was a common shortening/nickname of John, but I don't think it was really used for Jonathon (but I'm sure it would be possible to find people who used it!)

if it was in continuum then bear in mind that there were several mistakes in the continuum credits as both Mitchell and Carter were supposed to be Colonels and they were credited as Lt. Colonels

I have a friend who used Jack instead of his given name of Jonathan, 'cause Jon was too wimpy and Jonathan was too long. But you're right- it's his nickname, not his middle name.

Surely someone has asked one of TPTB about this, haven't they?

[Petra]

Sorry I'm responding so late but now that my summer job started I really don't have much time And when I do I'm so tired that I can't even express myself properly, hence the need to clarify some things

This is a nice summary, and ITA.
In general, I agree with you although I find it very interesting that you don't actually include the physical attraction/chemistry of season 1 as part of their feelings for each other. But really, as much as we higher-thinking beings wish it weren't so at times, it's the foundation of a lot of relationships including this one.

I totally agree and I didn't mean to say that their physical attraction played no role. On the contrary. In fact I mentioned it right at the beginning of my post. I didn't include it in my run down of the seasons because it played a big part in every season so I'd have to repeat it over and over and there's no need to convince anyone on this particular thread, is there?

That part in bold I must admit I never saw, at any time. She's excited about her job, but I don't see her giving up men in general over Jonas, not even for a little while. But if there's a moment you could point to for that, I'd love to know. I have picked up all kinds of new things from this rewatch!

Um, this is where my tiredness came into play. It was a wrong choice of words. What I meant was that after Jonas Sam seemed to be focused mainly on her job. She didn't shut the guys out, she engaged in a lot of harmless flirting but I believe that if it came down to a choice she would have chosen her job and her independence over a prospect of a relationship without any hesitation. It's a different attitude from season 7, when she puts her work/teammates/integrity at risk for a guy.
For example she liked Narim, flirted with him, gave him her cat, but didn't seem particularly upset when he left.
So basically I think that for Sam in season 1 her work was the most important thing in the world. I hope this time it's a little clearer.

This scene is fairly obvious, and I agree. And then there's the little moment of appreciation for Sam in that dress in Emancipation, and of course, BD. What RDA might have meant could be that after POV was when Jack started to take those feelings seriously, though. That I would agree with. But it isn't as if he hadn't thought about it before, he just disregarded them as impractical and illegal, to say the least!

Yeah, that's what I meant. As I said I don't see any "ship" in the first 2 seasons but the attraction and growing friendship. The rest is, as you say, subconscious. They don't realise something's not quite right till season 3 and then they start to entertain some thoughts..
Sorry for being so confusing.

Some random things, because I'm too lazy to do multiquoting:

1) Jack's height vs pilot's height

From what I've read/heard Jack/RDA is definitely too tall to be a pilot - in fact all the guys from the main cast are. I think I've hear somewhere that maximum height for a pilot is 5,9 - 6,0 - taller man doesn't fit into the cockpit.

2) Jack's degree

Well, engeneering works for me because it corresponds with him being a pilot, but I'm pretty open to various suggestions

3) canon

I said it many times, but I don't mind repeating.. Everything said on the show is canon however in the absence of dialogue prps are accepted as canon as well. In case of Jack's degree we can assume ingeneering as canon because no one on the show said otherwise.
However I agree with whoever said that if we have to enlarge images or freeze frames to actually see anything it's more like a guideline than actual fact. And props are wrong all the time anyway

4) Jonathan vs John

Personally I tend to think of "Jack" as a nickname and "Jonathan" as of given name, but it's purely my own preference. I just like "Jonathan" more than "John" and anyway we already have John Sheppard..

5) Sam not being in command in The Fifth Race

IIRC - I didn't rewatch the ep, sorry - Sam and Teal'c went with another SG team, right? And Major is simply higher than Captain, so it's no wonder he - ranking officer with more experience and his own command - leads the mission rather than Sam, who at this point is just a Captain who only led her own team once before.

[Nynaeve506]

2) Jack's degree

Well, engeneering works for me because it corresponds with him being a pilot, but I'm pretty open to various suggestions

Actually, believe it or not, most pilots get the easiest degree they complete in the fastest amount of time (this is coming from my dad who's a retired AF C-130 pilot). There's an age cut off for becoming a pilot so most guys just need to get their butts into the officer program and you just need a four year degree, so they'll take whatever they can. Also, if they plan on going higher in the ranks, they'll need a masters, so it makes sense to have something that can easily be obtained at the higher levels. My dad got a degree in Biology (he really liked sciences) and then got his masters in public administration. I've always thought of Jack as being a psych (because it's an easy degree) or a poli sci guy (because of his black ops).

[Zoser]

I believe its Jonathan J(ack) O'Neill.

Why do they keep asking me this?

He will always be John J. O'Neill to me.
The other guy, the one without a sense of humor is Jonathan O'Neil.

[leiasky]

Ahh yes, the fun prop with the wrong birth year . . . LOL!

[gater62]

Is Jack's real name John or Jonathan?
I think I've seen both at one time or another.

See above clip of Id, but also Jack is a very common nickname for John. Don't think Jonathan was a very common name back when Jack was born. At the same time I don't think we've ever heard him be called anything but Jack on the show. Has anyone looked up the credits for the original movie?

[VSS]

Okay, I'm really behind and I'll get Holiday up later today, but I wanted to stop and post first since I absolutely love Matter of Time because it's real science fiction. I get awfully tired of the aliens.

Fave Scene: I've always liked the scene where Sam takes off her dog tags and they go horizontal before slipping into the event horizon. I don't know why... I just like it.

Yes, that's pretty cool. Says it all without Carter having to say anything- for a change!

Again, another cool opening scene of a dying star turning into a black hole, however I think the timescale is ramped up a few exponentials....And wouldn't a star go supernova to create a black hole? Theoretically, shouldn't the energy of that obliterated the team on the nearby planet?

Sam said it was orbiting a companion star that became a black hole- which is sort of a contradiction in terms- what she must have meant is that planet was orbiting its own star- which was orbiting (or being orbited by) the star that went supernova and became a black hole a long time ago. The impression I got was that the team was alright when they first got there, but as the planet came around its own sun it got close to the companion star/black hole.

She should have pulled out the apple and the donut to explain that one!

Then we see Jack whispering to Sam, asking her a question about wormholes. He wants to know if they're always there or not. Now, is this Jack asking a question he really doesn't know the answer for is he just asking Sam that question for the chance to talk to her, watch her face light up as she discusses something scientific? (I'm assuming it was written in for the average viewers benefit)

Well, it's a bad metaphor. It's more like a hole through a piece of paper. But they perpetuate it in silly eps like Red Sky where the wormhole goes through the sun. Grrrr.

It isn't until Jack reminds her sharply that they are watching good men die.

As you mention, there are a couple of times that he runs out of patience with her in this ep, and the look on her face here is really heartbreaking.

On his way to get contact with the outside world and meets Major Davis who tells him they're going to see the president.

Yay! We first meet Major Davis. And we also get to see Lt. Simmons again, whom I really liked. He was just as I would have expected a Lt. to be- totally in awe of what was going on (especially Carter) and trying his darndest to do everything just right. Wish they'd kept him around.

Jack comments that Boyd is smart, then says he reminds him of Carter. Why?

I think I like this moment the best of the entire ep from a friendship perspective for Jack and Sam. I think it lets on that, despite his obvious impatience with Carter's technobabble and fascination with science to the exclusion of the human toll it can take, he respects her. Because it's not just because she's smart that she reminds him of Carter, I think. He respects Boyd greatly as a person, and that's also what I hear in his voice when he comments about Sam.

I think this episode does a really good job of highlighting how Jack and Sam both need to learn from each other, and how they're making some steps to do just that- Jack learning to think things through a little better, and Sam trying to connect the science to real life.

I wondered the same thing... and the reason behind the cheeky grin... As if Cromwell was going to say something about her, not her intelligence, and when Jack spoke over him, it's almost as though Cromwell figured out that perhaps Jack has a bit of interest in her, hence the cheeky grin.

Oh, I think that's exactly true. As if was going to say something like what Jack said in Moebius.

I totally agree and I didn't mean to say that their physical attraction played no role. On the contrary. In fact I mentioned it right at the beginning of my post. I didn't include it in my run down of the seasons because it played a big part in every season so I'd have to repeat it over and over and there's no need to convince anyone on this particular thread, is there?

Okay. I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, except this is the second time you kind of separate out the physical atttraction, and so it caught my attention. The first time was here: http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....postcount=1477 To me, it's the chemistry between these two that makes this ship so believable. Like in this little photo that surfaced this past week:

And that's just a behind-the-scenes shot. Maybe I overemphasize that aspect of the relationship, but, to paraphrase Kawalsky, they look hot together. Which is why that opening scene with the wormhole explanation comes across so shippy to some people. A lot of scenes are like that- for some reason they're just not as innocent as they look. It's hard to describe but it hooked me, for sure. I wouldn't say it's just physical attraction.

See above clip of Id, but also Jack is a very common nickname for John. Don't think Jonathan was a very common name back when Jack was born. At the same time I don't think we've ever heard him be called anything but Jack on the show. Has anyone looked up the credits for the original movie?

Well, as luck would have it, the little shipper watched the original movie last night, and the end credits say it's Jonathan "Jack" O'Neil. I agree with you that it was very uncommon then and John would have been a better choice (if you don't have anything else to do, it's fun to play with the Baby Name Wizard, just do a search for it. It's fascinating), but I guess it's Jonathan, since it's that way in Continuum, too.

[Zoser]

See above clip of Id, but also Jack is a very common nickname for John. Don't think Jonathan was a very common name back when Jack was born. At the same time I don't think we've ever heard him be called anything but Jack on the show. Has anyone looked up the credits for the original movie?

Yes, I have. Jonathan "Jack" O'Neil - Kurt Russell
And Our Charlie is Tyler.

[VSS]

Yes, I have. Jonathan "Jack" O'Neil - Kurt Russell
And Our Charlie is Tyler.

LOL! So is that your way of saying the first movie is unreliable, too?

[Nynaeve506]

LOL! So is that your way of saying the first movie is unreliable, too?

Maybe this is what Moebius changed!!! Fish in the pond and choosing the name Charlie instead of Tyler and O'Neill having TWO "l"s ... so the Stargate movie was in a wormhole during the shift and thus we have it, but the rest of our DVDs are in the current "real" universe. How else do you think the writer's came up with the plot device in Continuum?