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    Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
    I wonder if what affects Sam is the emotional component of killing Seth. In "The First Commandment" she can't kill Jonas. If she had, it would have been an emotionally charged kill - there's a difference between putting a bullet in the brain of a Jaffa trying to shoot you and actively hating (and thus getting pleasure) out of killing the guy in front of you. I wouldn't say that Sam is getting pleasure from killing Seth, but I think there is a sense of satisfaction. Sam is a "good girl" and I think finding that deep negative emotion against another living creature (albeit a nasty evil living creature) surprises her and probably disturbs her on some level.
    I think you're right about Sam. Face to face killing is different than armed combat "shoot the enemy and take out as many as you can' killing.

    Also, in order to use the gould device, doesn't she have to call on her darker nature, as well as getting a sense of pleasure from it. Or is that just fanon. Sometime the two get mixed up in my head.
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      Originally posted by KatG View Post
      I think you're right about Sam. Face to face killing is different than armed combat "shoot the enemy and take out as many as you can' killing.

      Also, in order to use the gould device, doesn't she have to call on her darker nature, as well as getting a sense of pleasure from it. Or is that just fanon. Sometime the two get mixed up in my head.
      "...the hand device and the healing device, respond only to mental commands and require naqahdah in the bloodstream of the user to operate."
      That's the description in wikipedia about the hand devices. Did we ever see anybody but the Goa'uld (and a few Tok'ra) using those hand devices? I don't recall ever hearing that it required calling on the darker side, but the Goa'uld certainly did get pleasure out of using it on people to torture them. In any event, it certainly disturbed Sam to discover she could use it the way that she did.

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        Originally posted by hedwig View Post
        That's the description in wikipedia about the hand devices. Did we ever see anybody but the Goa'uld (and a few Tok'ra) using those hand devices? I don't recall ever hearing that it required calling on the darker side, but the Goa'uld certainly did get pleasure out of using it on people to torture them. In any event, it certainly disturbed Sam to discover she could use it the way that she did.
        IIRC, the only way others (besides the goa'uld and tok'ra) can use the hand devices is to use them as a transporter ring controller and that just involves pushing buttons on the wrist portion of the device. Daniel states that in Endgame, for instance. Also, Jacob mentions summoning the "will" to use the goa'uld device just before Sam uses it in this episode- so I think that's all it takes. Because if she has to summon her dark side, I don't think Sam would be able to use it at all!

        I also don't think that up-close killing per se is why she's upset- she had no qualms whatsoever about blasting away at Hathor and at the time believed she had succeeded. Plus, she's killed Jaffa in firefights before, so while I certainly don't think she's a killing machine I don't think killing an evil goa'uld in self-defense is going to disturb her much, or honestly, she shouldn't be in a front-line combat unit. It's different from her not being able to shoot Jonas, because the goa'uld are the enemy.
        Last edited by VSS; 04 November 2009, 10:53 AM.

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          Originally posted by VSS View Post
          IIRC, the only way others (besides the goa'uld and tok'ra) can use the hand devices is to use them as a transporter ring controller and that just involves pushing buttons on the wrist portion of the device. Daniel states that in Endgame, for instance. Also, Jacob mentions summoning the "will" to use the goa'uld device just before Sam uses it in this episode- so I think that's all it takes. Because if she has to summon her dark side, I don't think Sam would be able to use it at all!

          I also don't think that up-close killing per se is why she's upset- she had no qualms whatsoever about blasting away at Hathor and at the time believed she had succeeded. Plus, she's killed Jaffa in firefights before, so while I certainly don't think she's a killing machine I don't think killing an evil goa'uld in self-defense is going to disturb her much, or honestly, she shouldn't be in a front-line combat unit.
          Good points. Plus, this was totally self-defense on her part. Had she not used that thing on Seth, he would certainly have killed or seriously injured her. And he had just injured her father. So there was really no reason for her to be that upset about killing him. Maybe it was the realization of her ability to instantly set aside her logical thinking processes and act instinctively without thought that upset her so much. Plus, just realizing she could summon up the ability to use that kind of power might have been bothering her. (Did that make any sense?)

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            Originally posted by hedwig View Post
            Good points. Plus, this was totally self-defense on her part. Had she not used that thing on Seth, he would certainly have killed or seriously injured her. And he had just injured her father. So there was really no reason for her to be that upset about killing him. Maybe it was the realization of her ability to instantly set aside her logical thinking processes and act instinctively without thought that upset her so much. Plus, just realizing she could summon up the ability to use that kind of power might have been bothering her. (Did that make any sense?)
            Makes sense to me! I don't think she's inured to killing, just that the reasons why she is so upset in this ep have to do with that part in bold.

            It was self-defense and he was literally her sworn enemy.

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              Originally posted by hedwig View Post
              Good points. Plus, this was totally self-defense on her part. Had she not used that thing on Seth, he would certainly have killed or seriously injured her. And he had just injured her father. So there was really no reason for her to be that upset about killing him. Maybe it was the realization of her ability to instantly set aside her logical thinking processes and act instinctively without thought that upset her so much. Plus, just realizing she could summon up the ability to use that kind of power might have been bothering her. (Did that make any sense?)
              Makes sense to me too, and I agree, I think it was the 'summoning the will within her' part of killing Seth that freaked Sam out so much. A soldier can probably emotionally and mentally disassociate themselves enough to kill someone without much trouble. But the hand device seems to require a more emotional/mental component, where you have to fully think about killing someone. I think that would freak almost anyone out.

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                Originally posted by VSS View Post
                IIRC, the only way others (besides the goa'uld and tok'ra) can use the hand devices is to use them as a transporter ring controller and that just involves pushing buttons on the wrist portion of the device. Daniel states that in Endgame, for instance. Also, Jacob mentions summoning the "will" to use the goa'uld device just before Sam uses it in this episode- so I think that's all it takes. Because if she has to summon her dark side, I don't think Sam would be able to use it at all!

                I also don't think that up-close killing per se is why she's upset- she had no qualms whatsoever about blasting away at Hathor and at the time believed she had succeeded. Plus, she's killed Jaffa in firefights before, so while I certainly don't think she's a killing machine I don't think killing an evil goa'uld in self-defense is going to disturb her much, or honestly, she shouldn't be in a front-line combat unit. It's different from her not being able to shoot Jonas, because the goa'uld are the enemy.
                Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                Makes sense to me too, and I agree, I think it was the 'summoning the will within her' part of killing Seth that freaked Sam out so much. A soldier can probably emotionally and mentally disassociate themselves enough to kill someone without much trouble. But the hand device seems to require a more emotional/mental component, where you have to fully think about killing someone. I think that would freak almost anyone out.
                And, everything I wanted to add to the discussion has been summed up in those two posts.

                I think the thing that freaks her out is the fact that she's been changed in a way that she has the power to use those devices, and specifically one for such destructive purpose. Later on we see that using the healing device for good is actually a lot more difficult. I think this is almost part of Sam's ongoing healing from the violation of Jolinar's forced possession. The process continues later when she does manage to use the healing device, and later still when she's able to save her father using Jolinar's memories.
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                  they should just hook up

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                    Banner by Sarai

                    The episode starts with the Secretary of Defense attending a ceremony at the SGC, at the conclusion of which General Hammond announces Sam's promotion to Major. The camera snaps to Jack when Hammond calls them to attention and he seems very proud as he helps to pin her new insignia to her shoulders and they salute. He then starts to make a speech, only to be rudely interrupted by Thor beaming him up to his spaceship in orbit around Earth.

                    I'd love to know what Jack was going on to say - his first sentence 'Normally I'm a man of few words' would seem to lead on to him saying that in this case he could wax eloquent about his 2IC, but alien intervention means we will never know

                    I always forget when I rewatch this that this is Jack and Thor's first face-to-face meeting. I also love that at this point in the series there's still the wonder about suddenly finding yourself in space. Anyway, Thor explains that following Jack killing Hathor in In the Fire, the Asgard want to extend the Protected Planets Treaty to cover Earth. Jack's reaction is unsurprisingly kinda sceptical - he'd rather have a fleet of your ships here, showing his instinctive distrust of the diplomatic solution in favour of the military one.

                    Back on Earth and in the SGC briefing room (Jack and Sam sitting next to each other, if VSS is still keeping score ), SG1, Hammond and the Secretary of Defense discuss how they can we can trust the Asgard? It is a good point, because this is only the third time we've encountered them and mainly at this point all we know is that they're also enemies of the Goa'uld. Although they did help Jack with the Ancient knowledge in The Fifth Race and have seen that their planets are basically OK, so I think it's a reasonable assumption that they're good guys!

                    Thor appears and explains what will happen in the negotiations, and nominates Jack as Earth's representative. This is really the start of the Asgard's trust in Jack in particular and a direct result of the encounter in The Fifth Race. Jack and the others are not quite so convinced he's the man for the job, but as we see time and time again in the future the Asgard have complete faith in him.

                    Daniel briefs on the Goa'uld that are coming: Cronus (with a connection to Sokar, current (and brief) big bad and an enemy of Apophis, as Teal'c tells us, foreshadowing the later happenings of the episode); Yu (and the jokes begin, complete with Sam's amused reaction to Jack); and Nirrti (with the history with Singularity and Cassandra. Not the best bunch of Goa'uld that could have been picked, but I guess at least it wasn't Apophis! Hammond asks Teal'c to act as liaison, but Teal'c refuses in no uncertain terms. Personally I can't help thinking it was a little insensitive of Hammond to suggest it, even not knowing about Teal'c's history with Cronus. I wonder why he did?

                    One of the terms of the negotiations is that no-one has any weapons, so everything gets locked up, including the Goa'uld hand device. Teal'c has to be specifically ordered to relinquish his staff weapon, and is clearly uncomfortable with doing so. The base gets sealed and then the Goa'uld arrive. Everyone is watching very apprehensively, and Teal'c is rather obviously missing. Daniel has taken on the liaison job and shows Cronus the VIP room, which looks like it's had a collision with a Greek temple - the SGC does seem to be going rather out of their way to accommodate the Goa'uld - where did they get the fancy drapes and braziers at such short notice?! Cronus and Teal'c meet and snarl at each other for a bit and Nirrti takes umbridge at the security cameras - lots of foreshadowing here for what is to come. Daniel has his work cut out to be diplomatic and the Goa'uld are all being very snotty

                    Daniel persuades Teal'c to explain the situation with Cronus - his father was Cronus's first prime and Cronus killed him and exiled Teal'c and his mother when he failed to win a battle. We discover that this was Teal'c's motivation to become First Prime to Apophis, so that he would one day be able to kill Cronus and avenge his father. I think this is a nice explanation for Teal'c's backstory, which makes his actions in CotG make more sense. His motivation was always to kill Goa'ulds, so it wasn't so much of a change of heart as it may have appeared.

                    Sam comes in to the negotiation room to wish Jack luck. He gets her rank wrong and corrects himself - nice little scene. Sam says she has confidence in him, and explains that Cronus was the one who sent the Ash'rak after Jolinar. This is one of those lovely subtle character scenes that say a lot about the state of their relationship - Sam understands that Jack is uncomfortable with his role here, and so makes a point of telling him she has confidence in him. They just come across very comfortable with each other here - the wink from Jack to Sam when she says 'good luck' and leaves as the Goa'uld arrive, for example. Thor arrives not long after the Goa'uld, but they just start bickering amongst themselves in Goa'uld. Jack objects and they flounce out - great start to his diplomatic career.

                    Jack asks Thor why the Asgard let the Goa'uld get that much power in the first place, and we get the backstory of Asgard-Goa'uld relations. Thor tells SG1 that they have a worse enemy in their own galaxy - our first hint of the Replicators. Daniel questions what would happen with a rogue Goa'uld like Sokar, and Thor says that the Asgard rely on the Goa'uld not getting along. As usual, Jack sees to the heart of it right away - the Asgard have been bluffing and the Goa'uld are so busy arguing amongst themselves that they've got away with it. This episode really does set up lots of the Goa'uld-Asgard mythology here, which is so important for so many future episodes.

                    Thor warns that they may have to make sacrifices to get the Goa'uld to agree to leave them alone. Sam raises the possibility that the Goa'uld are going to ask for hosts - Jack looks at her meaningfully and says that would be unacceptable, which I interpret as being an acknowledgement of her experience with Jolinar and a nice way of him trying to ease her instinctive fear.

                    Back in the negotiating room, the Asgard offering the Goa'uld access to passage of somewhere or other, and the Goa'uld reveal the catch with the treaty - the Asgard have agreed not to allow their planets to develop technologically to a point where they could threaten the Goa'uld, and the Goa'uld are the ones who get to determine that. The treaty recognises that the human race exist to serve the Goa'uld. Jack is unsurprisingly not happy about this, and it does show the Asgard in a somewhat arrogant light (not for the last time!) - they may do so benevolently, but they do play God, every bit as much as the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld then drop the real bombshell and ask for the surrender of both Earth's stargates.

                    (continued in the next post - I blew GW's limit because I clearly can't do brevity )
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                      (continued...)

                      SG1, Hammond and the Secretary of Defense discuss this back in the briefing room, considering whether it would be worth it. There's an interesting exchange between Sam and Jack at this point, where Sam puts Jack straight rather pointedly, IMO, with the emphatic use of 'Sir' that really comes across more as telling him off rather than any kind of respectfulness! It's exactly the same way she uses the word in Moebius, part one when they first arrive in Ancient Egypt, which I've always found very coupley. Is this the first time she speaks to him this way? It's certainly very familiar!

                      Jack goes back up to Thor's ship to ask his advice on the situation, but Thor turns it right back on Jack. I really like the way Thor basically gets Jack to talk through the situation himself - giving up the Stargates would also give up their only means to defend themselves, which has of course been the main argument for keeping the Stargate Program active in the first place - that now the Goa'uld know about us we need to use the gate to find ways to defend ourselves. However back on Earth, the Secretary of Defense and the President have decided to accede to the Goa'uld's demands.

                      Daniel heads off to tell the Goa'uld, but is interrupted by a security alert. He finds Cronus and Teal'c both unconscious and covered in blood on the floor of Cronus's room. Cronus in particular is very badly wounded and is dying, and the evidence doesn't look good for Teal'c, particularly not when Daniel lets the cat out of the bag about Teal'c's history with Cronus and his dad. Janet suggests the Goa'uld might be able to heal to Cronus and so Nirrti and Yu are brought to see him. Daniel asks them whether they can heal him with the healing device. Nirrti gives it a go but quickly decides he is too injured - only way to save him is with the sarcophagus.

                      Jack goes back to Thor's ship to ask his advice again. Thor says that they have to let the Goa'uld go, and the Asgard Council has ordered him to leave Earth alone. Hammond refuses to let Nirrti and Yu go, and everyone starts to brace themselves for seemingly inevitable destruction at the hands of the Goa'uld. Teal'c regains consciousness and tells Jack and Sam, Daniel and Hammond that Cronus summoned him and that an invisible force attacked him. They remember that Hathor could disappear - Jack looks at Sam and says 'tell me she's dead' in a rather pleading manner. Again this shows a level of understanding between the two of them, in the same way as Jack's earlier reassurance to Sam that they wouldn't let the Goa'uld demand hosts, here Jack is seeking reassurance from the person that he knows fully understands the trauma Hathor almost inflicted on him and who saw how that affected him at the time.

                      Sam tries to heal Cronus with the healing device. This is a big moment, as Sam is consciously trying to use Goa'uld technology and as we know is still very uncomfortable with this legacy from Jolinar. This is a direct counterpart to the end of Seth - there she had to use the 'bad' technology, with the hand device, whereas here she's trying to use it for good. And we have another moment of understanding between her and Jack as she
                      struggles with it. He wonders whether she's having difficulty because Cronus ordered Jolinar's death. Sam asserts that she just has Jolinar's memories, but Jolinar doesn't control her. This of course cuts to the core of Sam's struggle to come to terms with what Jolinar left her, and she is a bit defensive about it - almost as if she is trying to convince herself of it as much as anyone else. Jack says 'I'm just saying' and Sam throws him a bit of a dirty look - another example of quite a level of comfort between the two of them at this point. Sam heals Cronus (the camera cuts to Jack while she's doing it - I find the way that we are constantly shown Sam and Jack's reactions to one another in this way a fascinating way that the ship is built subtly, as we get the idea that we should be taking note of their reactions to one another more than with the other characters), and once he's awake and talking they explain the situation and Jack offers to find out which one of Nirrti and Yu was responsible - he essentially takes a leaf out of the Asgard's book and calls their bluff. It works perfectly - Yu gets mad and Nirrti vanishes. I love the way Jack does this - it's his own brand of bargaining and diplomacy - he's actually pretty effective because he's very perceptive, in his own way. Anyway, it all kicks off from this point. Sam corners Nirrti with the TERs, and Yu sides with Cronus and supports the treaty, without us having to give up our gates. Cronus leaves with a warning however - the Goa'uld will not attack Earth, but will show no mercy if they capture any of the SG teams elsewhere. It should also be mentioned that Nirrti is particularly not happy, which of course comes back to bite SG1 in the backside quite spectacularly on more than one occasion in the future. The Goa'uld and Thor leave and Earth is safe, for now.

                      Favourite quote:
                      "Our ships have never been detected in orbit around earth before" (Thor). I really do like the way that SG1 plays with established alien mythology with the Asgard

                      Implications for Jack and Sam:
                      No particular implications for the development of the ship, but definitely some nice moments. The promotion ceremony, obviously, and the way Sam goes to talk to Jack before the first treaty meeting. But really this episode just shows quite a level of understanding between the two of them. I think that Sam and Jack are at their most comfortable in this early part of season 3, before the events of later episodes. It will be interesting to see how and exactly when that changes - I think probably [i]Point of View[/b], when they're really confronted with the reality of their alternate selves' relationship, is the start of the awkwardness creeping in, but that's getting ahead of ourselves!
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                        I did not know that this thread existed. Talk about head in the sand.

                        I like the surprise of Sam's promotion, and the whole scene where he pins her [new rank?] on her. I know it's not really shippy or anything, but it's my favourite scene. The way they interact with each other is nice and comfortable. I need to re-watch it.

                        And I really enjoyed the discussion on the other page about Sam and Jack, and the different perspectives. That's nice to see, not only a healthy discussion, but being given the chance to reaffirm what I see, and see something new at the same time.

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                          Originally posted by m_wendy_r View Post
                          I did not know that this thread existed. Talk about head in the sand.

                          I like the surprise of Sam's promotion, and the whole scene where he pins her [new rank?] on her. I know it's not really shippy or anything, but it's my favourite scene. The way they interact with each other is nice and comfortable. I need to re-watch it.

                          And I really enjoyed the discussion on the other page about Sam and Jack, and the different perspectives. That's nice to see, not only a healthy discussion, but being given the chance to reaffirm what I see, and see something new at the same time.

                          There hasn't been much to discuss lately, and so this thread goes dormant at times but it's a nice spot to put the rewatch because the conversations are hard to follow if we're lured away by all the nifty stuff on the Appreciation Thread.

                          A couple of things I noticed in this ep were Sam's reactions during the initial briefing on the conference participants. SHe was quite unhappy that Niirti would be participating because of what happened with Cassie and I noticed that the camera panned to Janet during that part, as well. I think what you said about the director catching Sam's and Jack's reactions to each other is pretty telling and quite subtle, because now that I think about it they seem to do that more often than not, especially when Sam is smiling at Jack's jokes, which she does here. (I also recall that in Lost City Daniel heads off Weir's Yu jokes by saying it's been done to death and probably it's Jack who was doing it the whole time). So just like they showed Janet's reaction because she's most affected by what happens to Cassie, they show Jack and Sam because they're most affect by what happens to each other.

                          Anyway, a few things I noticed that you commented on, Josi. First, although this ep focused mostly on Jack, Sam had some excellent moments here that that you mentioned, particularly that scene where she heals Cronus, and also when she confronts Niirti in the hallway. I completely believe she would have killed Niirti right then and there if given the excuse.

                          You touched on Jack's version of "diplomacy" and to me it seems more like realpolitik because that's exactly what the goa'uld will respond to. Daniel thinks they'll respond to trust, honesty and logic, which is the basis of true diplomacy, but he's a little idealistic in this particular situation. It's the balance between these two tactics that makes them such a good team, IMHO. And of course, even the lofty Asgard (and the Nox, as we'll find out later) engage in their own form of power politics because not only does Thor tacitly approve of Jack finding a way to wiggle around the treaty, he also wiggles around Jack by telling him that he's been recalled from Earth's orbit and can't stay for the end of the negotiations. Yet, the closing shot of the episode is of Thor's ship leaving earth's orbit- he never left after all. So was he relying on Jack to do a bit of the Asgard's dirty work? Or was he just waiting to see how Jack would handle things without Thor around to help?

                          Getting back to Sam and Jack, I am keeping track of the seating arrangement, thanks for pointing that out, Josi.
                          Last edited by VSS; 06 November 2009, 07:11 PM.

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                            Originally posted by VSS View Post
                            A couple of things I noticed in this ep were Sam's reactions during the initial briefing on the conference participants. SHe was quite unhappy that Niirti would be participating because of what happened with Cassie and I noticed that the camera panned to Janet during that part, as well. I think what you said about the director catching Sam's and Jack's reactions to each other is pretty telling and quite subtle, because now that I think about it they seem to do that more often than not, especially when Sam is smiling at Jack's jokes, which she does here. (I also recall that in Lost City Daniel heads off Weir's Yu jokes by saying it's been done to death and probably it's Jack who was doing it the whole time). So just like they showed Janet's reaction because she's most affected by what happens to Cassie, they show Jack and Sam because they're most affect by what happens to each other.
                            Yes exactly It's something I think I noticed first in obviously shippy episodes like Entity, where it's as much about the reaction of the other to the situation as it is about the one experiencing it. But then I started to pick up on just how often we get cutaway shots, and how often for Sam and Jack they are of each other, far more than we ever see of Teal'c or Daniel. I think it's very deliberate and very clever.

                            Anyway, a few things I noticed that you commented on, Josi. First, although this ep focused mostly on Jack, Sam had some excellent moments here that that you mentioned, particularly that scene where she heals Cronus, and also when she confronts Niirti in the hallway. I completely believe she would have killed Niirti right then and there if given the excuse.
                            I think she would have done too, and I also think this scene also offers another parallel with Seth, in addition to the using Goa'uld technology. Sam corners Seth, and kills him in a way she finds hard to come to terms with. Here, in the very next episode, it is again Sam who corners the Goa'uld, but this time in a situation she is much more comfortable with, only now she has to let her go.

                            You touched on Jack's version of "diplomacy" and to me it seems more like realpolitik because that's exactly what the goa'uld will respond to. Daniel thinks they'll respond to trust, honesty and logic, which is the basis of true diplomacy, but he's a little idealistic in this particular situation. It's the balance between these two tactics that makes them such a good team, IMHO. And of course, even the lofty Asgard (and the Nox, as we'll find out later) engage in their own form of power politics because not only does Thor tacitly approve of Jack finding a way to wiggle around the treaty, he also wiggles around Jack by telling him that he's been recalled from Earth's orbit and can't stay for the end of the negotiations. Yet, the closing shot of the episode is of Thor's ship leaving earth's orbit- he never left after all. So was he relying on Jack to do a bit of the Asgard's dirty work? Or was he just waiting to see how Jack would handle things without Thor around to help?
                            Definitely. And I think that's what Thor and the Asgard like about Jack. They show a remarkable amount of trust in him right from the very start. I think though that the Asgard do so because they recognise that the Tauri are the best chance of defeating the Goa'uld to come along in pretty much ever. They can't spare the resources to deal with them themselves, and can't risk the Goa'uld finding out they have been bluffing this whole time, so they jump at the chance of encouraging SG1 to do it instead. And good point on the ship not leaving until the very end, I hadn't caught that really it should have already been gone!
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                              Fantastic review Josi. I absolutely adore this episode and you summed it up so well. Picking up on a couple of your points:

                              Sam comes in to the negotiation room to wish Jack luck. He gets her rank wrong and corrects himself - nice little scene. Sam says she has confidence in him, and explains that Cronus was the one who sent the Ash'rak after Jolinar. This is one of those lovely subtle character scenes that say a lot about the state of their relationship - Sam understands that Jack is uncomfortable with his role here, and so makes a point of telling him she has confidence in him. They just come across very comfortable with each other here - the wink from Jack to Sam when she says 'good luck' and leaves as the Goa'uld arrive, for example. Thor arrives not long after the Goa'uld, but they just start bickering amongst themselves in Goa'uld. Jack objects and they flounce out - great start to his diplomatic career.
                              I love this scene. It's not flirty or tense in a romantic or sexual way; it's just nice and friendshippy, just like you say:

                              No particular implications for the development of the ship, but definitely some nice moments. The promotion ceremony, obviously, and the way Sam goes to talk to Jack before the first treaty meeting. But really this episode just shows quite a level of understanding between the two of them. I think that Sam and Jack are at their most comfortable in this early part of season 3, before the events of later episodes.
                              And I think that last sentence does highlight that just when they've got to the point of not only trust and respect but friendship too, it's easy to understand why they - particularly Jack IMO - are so completely blindsided by the confrontation in later episodes of possible deeper feelings. I imagine, if we are to interpret regulations by the book, Jack should probably have been thinking, "I've become too friendly with this person make objective command decisions involving her" even at this point but I don't think he sees the problem; he's had subordinates as friends before (best friends if we're to beleive Kowalsky was his best friend in this reality too) and it's never been an issue so I guess why should this be any different. I always thought Sam was slightly more aware of their feelings from earlier on but that's really just me speculating based my own experiences on how men and women's minds operate.



                              Originally posted by VSS View Post
                              You touched on Jack's version of "diplomacy" and to me it seems more like realpolitik because that's exactly what the goa'uld will respond to. Daniel thinks they'll respond to trust, honesty and logic, which is the basis of true diplomacy, but he's a little idealistic in this particular situation. It's the balance between these two tactics that makes them such a good team, IMHO. And of course, even the lofty Asgard (and the Nox, as we'll find out later) engage in their own form of power politics because not only does Thor tacitly approve of Jack finding a way to wiggle around the treaty, he also wiggles around Jack by telling him that he's been recalled from Earth's orbit and can't stay for the end of the negotiations. Yet, the closing shot of the episode is of Thor's ship leaving earth's orbit- he never left after all. So was he relying on Jack to do a bit of the Asgard's dirty work? Or was he just waiting to see how Jack would handle things without Thor around to help?

                              Getting back to Sam and Jack, I am keeping track of the seating arrangement, thanks for pointing that out, Josi.
                              That's an interesting take on the whole diplomacy thing that I had never considered before. I don't think the Asgard were ever as innocent and altruistic as they sometimes came across. They, like the Tok'ra, often used Earth's forces for their own ends (albiet often with benefits for us too), but unlike the Tok'ra they were far more transparent as to their motives.


                              And umm, so what's the score then?
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                                Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                                And umm, so what's the score then?
                                I haven't decided if I'm going to count the scene from Seth that has Jacob in it. If I do, it's one to one. Other people besides the main four always complicate the statistics, but Jacob always sits next to Sam so it throws off the statistics in a nonrandom way.

                                But, even 50/50 is higher than it should be. Statistically, Jack and Sam should only sit by each other 1/3 of the time in a two-by-two arrangement. It's easy to see how often that is exceeded, isn't it? Like the cutaway shots Josi mentioned, the framing is relentless.
                                Last edited by VSS; 07 November 2009, 03:46 AM.

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