Browder's character should OUTRANK Carter

[smurf]

Well see that's kind of my point.

Jackson grated on my nerves when that incarnation first reared its ugly head in Season 9 and continued to annoy every time he showed up. It made me really miss Daniel and highlighted the show's desperate attempt to return to a format that (I had thought) it had grown out of. I don't know who made what decision when, but it was like someone figured out that Mitchell as crafted didn't make much sense and so they tried to make Daniel into something he wasn't for the sake of fitting that original formula. So not only was Mitchell acting a bit schizophrenic as he bounced back and forth between serious Air Force fighter pilot hero and buffoon, Daniel too suffered the same fate by shifting from Daniel Jackson: scientist/scholar/hero to ActionJackson. Meanwhile Carter is shoved to the back with Teal'c. It just didn't work for me.

I had assumed we'd see a continuing evolution of what we saw in Season 8...with Carter in command but now with a new team mate...an upstart major who didn't care for her leadership or had different ideas and made his displeasure known. I would have enjoyed seeing her struggle with an officer she was maybe stuck with for political reasons and then watching this team deal with these internal conflicts while still having to go out and save the galaxy. I think that kind of evolution would have been great for the team and the characters and would have flowed a lot more naturally.

It's like the team managed to grow from "SG-me" to "SG-me and him".

It would have been interesting to have made Mitchell the conscience of the team once they decided on Action Jackson. I could see SG-1 getting so used to doing things for the good of the planet, and having died so many times, that they could do with someone who had a different perspective on his and other people's mortality.
Either that, or it would have been interesting to have given him some form of science angle from the off (admittedly that would make him even more Jonas-y than he already is) so not only has Sam got to deal with leading, but she could have someone to butt heads with, and have to sometimes let go of one of her loves in life.

but logic would entail following your own show's cannon and making sure the new characters fit into the show, not changing the show to fit the new underdeveloped characters.

I knew I had gone wrong somewhere...

[scifithinker]

*is entertained*

[Uber]

It's like the team managed to grow from "SG-me" to "SG-me and him".

It would have been interesting to have made Mitchell the conscience of the team once they decided on Action Jackson. I could see SG-1 getting so used to doing things for the good of the planet, and having died so many times, that they could do with someone who had a different perspective on his and other people's mortality.
Either that, or it would have been interesting to have given him some form of science angle from the off (admittedly that would make him even more Jonas-y than he already is) so not only has Sam got to deal with leading, but she could have someone to butt heads with, and have to sometimes let go of one of her loves in life.

I knew I had gone wrong somewhere...

It would have been interesting had they chosen not to take the path of least resistance.

Instead of introducing a new integral character to the team and allowing us the viewers to get used to him naturally while watching the team adjust to the changes, they instead deconstructed the team, crammed Mitchell into a position he didn't belong and then attempted to rebuild the team around him as though he were the focal point. But he wasn't and never really could be. Not on SG-1 anyway.

There was just too much history and cannon in the way and not nearly enough substance in his character to make his role anything more than an obvious mis-fit.

Now like I said, I started to warm to him by late season 10 (which after my utter disgust from "Stronghold" and "Off the Grid" is saying A LOT) but by then it was just too late.

[Mandysg1]

It would have been interesting had they chosen not to take the path of least resistance.

Instead of introducing a new integral character to the team and allowing us the viewers to get used to him naturally while watching the team adjust to the changes, they instead deconstructed the team, crammed Mitchell into a position he didn't belong and then attempted to rebuild the team around him as though he were the focal point. But he wasn't and never really could be. Not on SG-1 anyway.

There was just too much history and cannon in the way and not nearly enough substance in his character to make his role anything more than an obvious mis-fit.

Now like I said, I started to warm to him by late season 10 (which after my utter disgust from "Stronghold" and "Off the Grid" is saying A LOT) but by then it was just too late.

What gets me, is they did this in S6, when MS left the show they brought Jonas in. His character wasn't accepted right off the bat, he had to earn his position on SG1 and they had conflict. Too bad they didn't do this with Mitchell, he could have fit in and been accepted much better.

[smurf]

What gets me, is they did this in S6, when MS left the show they brought Jonas in. His character wasn't accepted right off the bat, he had to earn his position on SG1 and they had conflict. Too bad they didn't do this with Mitchell, he could have fit in and been accepted much better.

I remember reading they (TPTB) thought the problem with the introduction of Jonas was that, because the team didn't accept Jonas immediately, the fans didn't accept Jonas. Hence the requirement for Mitchell love.
Which would be fine if that was the reason why some of the louder fans didn't accept Jonas.

I don't think Mitchell needed conflict to be accepted, but he had to interact with the team more. All his heroics were done separate to the team and nearly all his early interaction was with Landry (another newbie we didn't know), in contrast to Jonas who interacted with all members of the team from the beginning. That way we saw him through their eyes.
Of course, this would work better without the illogical (non) reasoning behind Carter's return to, and position in, the team.

[ReganX]

What gets me, is they did this in S6, when MS left the show they brought Jonas in. His character wasn't accepted right off the bat, he had to earn his position on SG1 and they had conflict. Too bad they didn't do this with Mitchell, he could have fit in and been accepted much better.

With Jonas, they were bringing a new character into an established show, as one of five regulars.

With Mitchell, they should have been doing the same thing but instead they treated him as the lead of a new show, around whom the new show would be built and therein lay one of the biggest mistakes. They weren't fitting him into the show, or into the team, they were trying to break down and reshape a show and a team with eight years of history around him.

Of course it didn't work. I would have been astounded if it had.

[Uber]

I remember reading they (TPTB) thought the problem with the introduction of Jonas was that, because the team didn't accept Jonas immediately, the fans didn't accept Jonas. Hence the requirement for Mitchell love.
Which would be fine if that was the reason why some of the louder fans didn't accept Jonas.

I don't think Mitchell needed conflict to be accepted, but he had to interact with the team more. All his heroics were done separate to the team and nearly all his early interaction was with Landry (another newbie we didn't know), in contrast to Jonas who interacted with all members of the team from the beginning. That way we saw him through their eyes.
Of course, this would work better without the illogical (non) reasoning behind Carter's return to, and position in, the team.

Actually for me, I liked Jonas more because I saw the team get over their initial feelings of resentment and learn to accept him. He worked for and earned their respect, which made me respect him too. His character had a natural evolution and it worked for me. Had he continued on SG-1, we would have seen the relationship evolve beyond the acceptance he finally achieved and further into a true team dynamic.

Mitchell showing up and being universally loved just didn't ring true to me. Further agitating the issue was the whole thing about the team and Carter and well...he never had a chance to earn my respect because I was too busy resenting the way his presence seemed to completely disrupt the dynamic of the team, and not in a good way.

[Mandysg1]

Actually for me, I liked Jonas more because I saw the team get over their initial feelings of resentment and learn to accept him. He worked for and earned their respect, which made me respect him too. His character had a natural evolution and it worked for me. Had he continued on SG-1, we would have seen the relationship evolve beyond the acceptance he finally achieved and further into a true team dynamic.
Mitchell showing up and being universally loved just didn't ring true to me. Further agitating the issue was the whole thing about the team and Carter and well...he never had a chance to earn my respect because I was too busy resenting the way his presence seemed to completely disrupt the dynamic of the team, and not in a good way.

Exactly, we had drama, conflict and angst, we got to accept Jonas in a timely fashion, not be told he's great and everyone loves him. People need time to adjust to new characters; we weren't given that with Mitchell, and we weren't given a well thought out character either.

[smurf]

Actually for me, I liked Jonas more because I saw the team get over their initial feelings of resentment and learn to accept him. He worked for and earned their respect, which made me respect him too. His character had a natural evolution and it worked for me. Had he continued on SG-1, we would have seen the relationship evolve beyond the acceptance he finally achieved and further into a true team dynamic.

Me too. I warmed to him. It wasn't demanded of me that I like him immediately. Although, I did like him immediately in Meridian, then I didn't like him, then I left him slightly on the positive side of neutral, and that was just in one episode. Mitchell started okay for me, then went downhill at some speed.
The situation with Jonas made sense, because of the bond the team had developed. He wouldn't have worked half as well if all the other characters were talking constantly about how cool he was (and he never demonstated it).

But I suppose you, me, and anyone else who thought Jonas' introduction into the team worked don't count.
Too bad for Mitchell. It would have been more interesting to find out what he was made of, and why he deserved to lead the team, through his interactions with the team, and their reaction to him - with or without major conflict. But they didn't take that route, they ran scared. They told me he was great, they (sort of) told me he was the leader, but they didn't risk showing me why by using the characters I already trust.
Even if he flat out outranked Carter, the lack of interaction would still leave me distrusting his ability.

[ParadoxRealities]

Yes, because he has so much in common with a woman and an alien with a snake in his gut!!

exactly, he's also superficial.

Sam:
soldier/leader/fighter
doctor/intellectual
sympathizing/tries to help people
more emotionally reachable/easier to actually talk to
more morally outspoken

that's what daniel would be if he got harder (to be expected when he fights a war)


Teal'c
stoic/silent
expressive (very much, though facially)
deep/philosophical
great at reading people/understanding
war hardened/fighter/warrior/protective

that's what daniel would be like if he went slightly the other way (also possible in a war)


Jack
irreverent/loud
soldier/leader/fighter
fierce/tunnel visioned
boyish? (not in a bad way) sense of humor
this is what daniel would be if he...had a personality transplant

Mitchell *has* a presence? Sheesh. Invisible Jack had much more of a presence than Mitchell has ever had, IMO.

yeah. i missed that to. arrogant? yes. imbecile? yeah. but the man doesn't even have a purpose on the team, much less a presence there. have you(gen) ever studied military command presence? because he earns around a D or D+. Jack's basically an A, and Sam's around a B to B+.

Sigh. It's not the same if it's stronger, more encompasing now is it? You have just proved me right ...again. Sam caved, Jack and Daniel didn't, even though it was stronger, more encompasing then the other different stuff Hathor had used. Get it now kids??

while you're right, it doesn't help your case. jack and daniel are immune (Out of Mind, remember?) and this stuff is stronger, and, given jacob's timeline, she fell slower--by quite a bit. this brings up another point: there's no proof she actually did give in. she said:

SETH: You were once blended. Were you not?!
CARTER: Blended?
SETH: No entry marks. But still..I sense a trace. Bring me those who came with her!
SETH: Who sent you? The System Lords? The Tok'ra? I am your god! You will tell me what I want to know! Who does your military work for? The System Lords or the Tok'ra?
CARTER: I have a vague recollection of what you're talking about. The Tok'ra.
<shock>

the blending was no one's fault. the tok'ra is, in fact, untrue. whether she knew that at the time is unknown. and even if it was known, there's no way to know whether jack or daniel would have broken had they been closer. we don't know how seth works. and they most probably have an immunity. seth later says they're lying; we don't know how far back. we don't know how that works either.
as for her praising seth, again, we don't know how his lie detection works. she may have been lying, it's better than jack's not chanting at all. never know. daniel picked up as they went. never know. there's no proof of anything either way.

[flynn1959]

I see you're avoiding my question. If people on that other forum are better informed and more fun than the posters here, – and they certainly agree with your opinions about Carter – what is it that keeps you from joining them full-time?

Perhaps you feel it's your duty to stand up against all of the ill-informed, fans here who actually like Sam Carter and Amanda Tapping???

Give that lady a cigar!!!!!

Seriously? I feel someone has to keep things in perspective, somewhat, I know a lot of the fans who don't think the sun goes in when Sam/AT sits down have been driven into hiding here. But I am made of sterner stuff! Bully boy tactics will never work on me. I know my opinions are shared by many, many, many people, my pm's etc tell me that. If they don't feel able to use thier voice, then I am here for them. I will say the things others think. I don't care how many people spit bile and hatred at me through pm's, e-mails etc. I don't care how many times I am told to pi** off, or die, or get a life, or told I am a bad parent etc, etc. I don't take much notice of the deflecting tactics.

I have my opinion and you have yours, each are valid in thier own way. We each have a right to express that opinion.

I could post on any of the other many forums who think the same way I do and at times I do. But this forum gives a false impression of one characters popularity by the use of unfair means and that is just plain wrong.

[Madeleine]

I just don't see why if they wanted a blond they didn't cast one. As for naming an episode...are you kidding? Name one that you can't see that Carter is not a natural blond!!!!

I don't think the hairstyle of a particular character is ever likely to be important enough that the casting directors use it as a deciding factor.

I've never noticed AT having 'roots'. But FWIW AT may well be a sort-of natural blonde: my husband is a sort-of natural blond, as are my sons. They have blonde hair with dark roots. Mr W has been accused of dying his hair, but I know for a fact that my infant sons haven't access to any bleaching agent other than sunlight

[Madeleine]

I've just deleted over a dozen posts.

It gives me a right headache when people flame an alledged troll until the target flames back. There's no 'fair' way to moderate it - at least there is, but as no one gets to see what modding is being done to anyone but them, there's a strong tendency for everyone to feel picked on

Guys, if someone's views are unusual or if they appear illogical, it should be easy enough to argue with facts and alternative opinions. If that gets nowhere, then some things are best ignored, or agreed to disagreed. Flaming isn't necessary.

[Madeleine]

Give that lady a cigar!!!!!

Seriously? I feel someone has to keep things in perspective, somewhat, I know a lot of the fans who don't think the sun goes in when Sam/AT sits down have been driven into hiding here.

No, there are plenty, they just - on the whole - have other, better things to post about. Like the stuff that they like.

i've seen plenty of people indicate their lack of enthusiasm for sam, both on SG-1 and on Atlantis. They don't get flamed for it, nor modded, nor run off the board.

But I am made of sterner stuff! Bully boy tactics will never work on me. I know my opinions are shared by many, many, many people, my pm's etc tell me that. If they don't feel able to use thier voice, then I am here for them. I will say the things others think. I don't care how many people spit bile and hatred at me through pm's, e-mails etc. I don't care how many times I am told to pi** off, or die, or get a life, or told I am a bad parent etc, etc. I don't take much notice of the deflecting tactics.

If you're getting that, do feel free to report it. The mods will not allow people to be threatened in PMs, but we cannot act unless we know it's occurring. But please also understand that your own frequent disparaging remarks about fans of Sam or of AT are what I see causing people to get riled at you (in the public threads, that is.). You really have been unpleasant about Sam fans in general in this thread - although i'm sure you'll agree that there is such thing as a decent Sam fan (even if I can't get you to admit to what *I* believe: that the decent ones are the vast majority) and that the decent ones don't deserve to be hit by your scattergun.

You seem to think that for a person to be an extremely appreciative fan of Sam is sufficient grounds for you to pour scorn on them. I don't get it. If you hang at OS - as I used to - you'll know that there are a lot of very ardent fans of MS in this fandom. They chat together, friendly like, about how they like MS, and what a great actor he is. I used to feel at home with that, years ago, in the days when I had the time to venture beyond GW. (I still see some of them in RL and have a good old natter about the wonder that is Daniel .) They would probably bridle at the suggestion that they think the sun shines from his fundament, although an uncharitable person might make that accusation. They just like his work, like his nice personality (if they've met him) and in that respect are no different to any AT fan, or CJ fan or JF fan. Please give the AT fans the respect that you and I like to get as a fan of MS, CJ and perhaps other actors on other shows.

(Aside: There was a time - looooong ago - when people would have retaliated in kind, and reacted to disses of AT's fans with disses of MS's fans. I'm really pleased that that hasn't happenned here, btw - thanks guys )

I have my opinion and you have yours, each are valid in thier own way. We each have a right to express that opinion.

Only if we can do so while being respectful of fellow Real People. Please try. If you are finding it difficult - for instance if you feel you're being goaded - please ask a mod to look at the matter.

But this forum gives a false impression of one characters popularity by the use of unfair means and that is just plain wrong.

Unfair means? I'm not really sure what you're saying. We have a live-and-let-live policy for fans and unfans of all characters or pairings here. We have fans of certain characters or pairings on SG-1 and ATL over- or under-represented here as a consequence of other forums' gravity sucking towards them the people who those forums are aimed at.

Good for them for 'aiming', if that's what they want to do; it's nice that there are niches within the fandom and a multitude of places, each with a different atmosphere and ethos where different people can feel at home. But that isn't our intent. We're here for anyone who turns up. And we don't have quotas.

(LOL! imagine it! "No love, sorry, we've got a full complement of S/Ws here, you can't join unless we get seven more S/Ts, nineteen S/Mc's and a dozen noromos. You're number two on the S/W GW waiting list, come back next week. Unless... you say you like Landry? Yup, we need you to balance out the Walter-fans and Hammond-fans, so join up by all means, but only post about Landry and nothing appreciative about S/W till we give you the nod. 'Kay? " )

Sam is popular here, for various reasons. If you think her popularity is higher here than in fandom in general, I'll conceed that it's entirely possible you're right (or wrong) but I have to say that not many people besides you seem to think it *matters* so.

It really doesn't matter if people like Sam. Let them. And if it's on-topic, and if you have something new and interesting to say about why you dislike her, be my guest. Just don't go for her fans. They're not a fair target here.

And please understand that since no one else has defining the portrayal on GW of Sam's popularity in the fandom as a mission, not many people are going to quite understand why you are so ardent about criticising her.

[esoap524]

So tell me, do you think that Carters hair is natural? An odd look, don't you think, the way she dyes the roots dark so often, quite strange that. I have seen that 'style' a few times, but it usually means that the persons colour is growing out. Maybe going through the stargate turns your parting brown? Actually, that could be right, I seem to remember Daniel being bleached blond with dark roots too some years ago.

And when they stopped going through the 'gate so often Jack went grey and Teal'c grew hair!!!!

My god, they should have gotten extra pay to spend on hair products.

Hey, what's wrong with a woman dying her hair? Seriously! Does every serious woman now have to LOOK like she has no other concern than being serious? Jackson's serious and he's still hot (and uses hair mousse). Teal'c definitely works out and there's hardly any one more serious than he is. Jack...well, good ol' Jack looks way too old for Sam, if you ask me.

I've watched about 15 shows from season 1, all of 9 and all of 10 so far. In the first season, it seemed like they were making quite a show of making her boyish--hair was very short, she was tough, going the whole "just because my reproductive organs are on the inside doesn't mean I'm not capable...Sir." Think about it. She's a young woman in a man's world. What else was she going to do at that point? She had to prove herself.

The Sam I see now is much more comfortable with the fact that she's a woman and a scientist and a military officer. I like Cam, sure, but he's wreckless a lot of the time, not always always the sharpest stick in the wood pile. If I had to follow a cool lead, I'd rather listen to Sam. She's been there, done that. Even Cam knows that he needs Sam more often than not.

Gee...I didn't know I cared that much.