Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[blackluster]

Okay, I've incorporated nerfing figures, not that I can see how it was hax in the first place...

[puddlejumperOZ]

Re: Blacky's post. You are correct. The guidance systems for the F18E/F cost around $4.7 each, then you have to build the plane around that. The M30 gun alone is $320,000

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

A couple of things:

1. Shouldn't we finish finalizing the setting before we vote on ships? What are the specifics for the Aschen, Alesians, and Lucian Alliance?

2. I agree that Janet wouldn't really want a warship named after her. Her life was about saving others, not killing enemies.

[puddlejumperOZ]

A couple of things:

1. Shouldn't we finish finalizing the setting before we vote on ships? What are the specifics for the Aschen, Alesians, and Lucian Alliance?

2. I agree that Janet wouldn't really want a warship named after her. Her life was about saving others, not killing enemies.

It seems a little ad hoc at the present Mcoy, no one is on here long enough or at the same time to reach a consenus on the scenarios

The French had a warship during WW2 named Marie Curie
The ship is named for the reason I gave above. The class is the heroine class, and Janet is reguarded in that sense. Sometimes you have to send a warship out to save lives

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Okay, well, do you want to go ahead and open the story thread, in that case?

You can open it if you want, otherwise I suppose I'll do it. It just needs a bit of an introduction and then the back-story.

[puddlejumperOZ]

Okay, well, do you want to go ahead and open the story thread, in that case?

You can open it if you want, otherwise I suppose I'll do it. It just needs a bit of an introduction and then the back-story.

I'm at work right now and I have to prep for weekend reserve duty soon, so start off and I'll check back before I go probably around 1730. It's 1148 here now

[Princess Awinita]

A couple of things:

1. Shouldn't we finish finalizing the setting before we vote on ships? What are the specifics for the Aschen, Alesians, and Lucian Alliance?

2. I agree that Janet wouldn't really want a warship named after her. Her life was about saving others, not killing enemies.

Well, as soon as i can actually get into a chat session with Amann over things we can have more information on the Alesians and Darrowen (Drow) set up for you guys to read over

[Davidtourniquet]

I forgot to add the kinetic and energy weapons to the post with the standardisation tables in. It's on page 76 and it's post 1516.

[locutes]

Awinita, also as to the value of money, when the gate goes public hyperinflation is bound to happen in some nations, I can see that happening in Europe since Europe is based around information dealing and sevices dealing. All based around Antiquated tech by 2025, thus the Euro will have dropped significantly, the Dollar would too, and thus you will start to need more amounts of cash for the same tech.


Supply and demand, our old tech will become obsolete overnight, but new markets will arrize also. Then we suddenly need new materials for the new tech, which is hard to come by thus increasing the prize of naquadah and trinium and all dramaticly Our won tech would have less demand from Earth but slowly increasing demand from other planets which would make 1bil dollars less valuable than it is now. Your 5mil estimate is really ludicrous.


Since we will not use those complicated economic stuff allot, and for the sake of writing we scaled the value somewhat to the money we have now you still cannot convince anyone that a gunship actually would cost 5million dollars when simple guns would cost almost a HALF A MILLION. And the Missile launchers would cost about 4.7MILLION.

That would leave you with one missile guidence system and one gun without the actual ship, where is the sence in that?!

[thekillman]

ok guys i'll be offline for the weekend, please don't make major decisions.

i'll check the figures when i'm back.


also why would hyperinflation happen? not all tech becomes useless, we're quite an advanced society. the military will keep tabs on the really advanced technology. given the circumstances in Stargate, i doubt there's ever gonna be personal spacecraft. advanced technologies will most likely be highly-secure and secret technologies. hyperdrive etc is most likely only disclosed to major companies, at a price.


Ion engines require no naquahdah. however Hebridan ones most likely do require high-performance alloys and materials. also naquahdah makes pretty much everything better and trinium everything stronger and lighter. they'll be popular.

a gunship actually would cost 5million dollars when simple guns would cost almost a HALF A MILLION. And the Missile launchers would cost about 4.7MILLION.

oh you can make a gunship for 5 million dollars. although it'll never get to orbit.

the mistake in the 5 mil estimate is that it's based upon a helicopter which was used for vietnam, and whatever vietnam movie i look at, those hueys do little more than fly back and forth with troops. they land, drop troops and leave. seriously, if the gunship i'm talking about was in We Were Soldiers, a single one would've taken out all the soldiers. modern-day tech would RAPE Hueys. the Stinger missile is an incredibly reliable and relatively cheap weapon. if a huey from Vietnam flies over Afghanistan or iraq, it'll never get within 3 kilometers of the actual border. if it's facing america, it's shot down before it's even a quarter of the way over the ocean.


it's just that: a dropship. travel back and forth. a gunship requires much more powerful weapons, lots of them, which can take out the enemy long before they can take you out. getting to orbit is a pricey ability, and SG-style combat requires inertial dampeners, a sensor array and advanced engines at least.

the F-302 has the experimental highly-advanced Aerospike engines, which alone would cost a lot. i won't even talk about the material the hull is made of.

[locutes]

so you still say we cannot get a gunship for 5m if it's got to do what we want it too

[thekillman]

it's possible to get a gunship for 5 million bucks, but it'll probably have rotors, machineguns and an aluminium frame and body.

for 2 billion bucks, your gunship has several missile pods with ATS and ATA missiles, air breathing engines, space engines, trinium superstructure, composite hull, an autocannon turret, advanced targeting systems, advanced electronics, sensor arrays, and what not.


it's like having a fiat panda or a formula 1 car.

besides it's basically earth's creed to use quality over quantity. we like keeping our soldiers safe, we like hitting our enemy without being hit, we like seeing our enemy while they don't see us, we like sending in 3 ships that can do everything as opposed to 30 specialized ones. we prefer 1 big missile over a dozen smaller ones.


evidence is everywhere. when a single-warhead ICMB isn't enough, we built ones with 3 and 6 and even more nuclear warheads. when a tank isn't enough, we built one with nigh-impenetrable armor which laughs at anti-tank missiles and happily blows up enemies. we like Predator Two's over sending in an air wing. we prefer an aircraft carrier over having fighters designed for long missions. we prefer a few big guns over dozens of small guns. we prefer 1 CIWS turret that shoots 1400 rounds per minute over 10 CIWS turrets which shoot 140 rounds per minute.


humanity simply prefers a number of well-equipped over lots of poor-equipped.

though in history things appeared to have gone differently, the idea has been the same: we preferred having several hundred properly-equipped foot soldiers over a few dozen heavily-armed, highly-trained and highly-expensive knights.


humans simply prefer proper equipped with some numbers over super-equipped with few numbers and poor-equipped with high numbers.

the reason is target priority and persistence. 3 well-armed knights are by far not as expendable as 10 people with normal armament. also the knights more easily loose against the 10 because they're outnumbered and when 1 knight is lost, that's 33% losses, while the 10 normal soldiers have only 10% losses per person lost.

additionally a gunship is a balance between firepower and expendability. in one end, it should be capable of inflicting severe damage, and remaining airborn for several hours, while being capable of taking a few hits and being useful, and on the other end we should be able to produce quite a few of them and we should be able to deploy quite a few of them for optimum coverage.


this argument also is proof for the fact that we're better off with a GUNSHIP than a GUNBOAT. gunships are aircraft and helicopter-like and between 10 and 20 meters long. gunboats often are 50 meters and longer in sci fi. especially in certain other fleets. a gunship can go in, retrieve people, carry stuff around, move people and objects around, can fight and dogfight and can provide cover fire. a gunboat of 50-100 meters is incredibly easy to spot, incredibly easy to hit and it's basically overkill for the things you want. also it requires bigger shield generators, bigger engines, more power, bigger weapons and more crew, while it can't retrieve people without being a hard-to-miss target and without being obvious to spot. a Gunship can slip in under the radar, retrieve people while being covered by trees so it's not easy to spot, and take off while missiles destroy an incombing enemy fighter or patrol.


still it would be crazy to make a cheap, expendable gunship, because it would be easier to shoot down while having minimal firepower. also the pilots become kinda expensive.


i personally would sacrifice gate capability for being bigger and more powerful. especially since stargates are probably well-guarded and a target priority. and besides, with our extensive 304 fleet we can EASILY send a gunship from a 304. i mean, we got like... 20 304's by now. they'll most likely be spread across the galaxy, acting as mission platforms. got trouble? send a gunship. if it wasn't already there to monitor the situation.

also it makes them perfect scouts and what not. they can easily shut down major systems to create a minimal energy signature to evade detection and passive sensors (you're still quite easy to detect in space, but in Stargate most sensors seem to be aimed at the radiation coming from hyperdrives and powersources, not basic Infrared, especially since the latter is very common.

detect hyperspace or powersource radiation and you surely have found a ship. Infrared can be anything.

[thekillman]

so you still say we cannot get a gunship for 5m if it's got to do what we want it too

in a highly simplified answer: yes that's what i'm saying

[Princess Awinita]

<snipy snip as it is too long>

1 See ya Killman, take care, and stay away from anything that looks like PI. *has fought with it all afternoon*
2 Hyperinflation? OK I think I get where you guys are coming from with the new technology and such in terms of todays basic monotary gains and falls. Standarising the money rank/values to modern day and real life does get kind of confusing.
3 the Ion engines would kick into gear at a certain level of the planet in questions atmosphere, the dual axis duct fan propellers would get it up there, then the TIE's that are part of the craft would take over. Sadly I can't exactly see where the naquadah and trinum would come in though, I can see the craft being made of a mix of durosteel and trinum though.
4 Which is really just that, a gunship, lacking the proper technologies, which pretty much means that the technology needed to get it into orbit level for the TIEs to take over would be added by the military group in question. the company would only make the craft and make sure it's flyable.
4a I used the Huey as a base, similar to how James Cameron used it to make the scorpion gunships and the samson gunships. Its really just a base, without any major technology to get to orbit, that is added later. But you do raise a good point, considering I saw Battle of Hamburger Hill (which is not as good as the Pasific miniserie on HBO, but a good film nonetheless)
5 Some dropships (that i have seen) can get into orbit to a ship insystem, or get out of a ship, though they'd not have a hyperdrive. I'm going small as to fit through a stargate, the Project 210 need not actually go into orbit or space unless it actually has a need to do so.
6 I only liked the fighter because Lorne and Sheppard got to use them and Jack made a silly joke about them
7 I mention a seventh itrem because it is on my mind, What exactly is the main construction of the Daedalus, it is a stell interstructure covered with a trinum outastructure? or what?

[Crazy Tom]

i actually think shields and hyperdrive will be main costs, since they need the most high-grade materials. i'm not sure about the actual use of high-tech armor, it's hard stopping a railgun round, let alone a multi-KT plasma blob. the only real way to stop weaponsfire is by sacrificing parts of the ship. in that case all critical systems are best placed in the centre of the craft, where maximum decks can be sacrificed. Wraith bolts take out quite an area of ship, and 3 bolts almost entirely disabled the Deadalus. at a ha'tak's ROF, ships simply stand no chance unshielded.

pluto, mars, mercury, jupiter, saturn, they all suggest otherwise.

Indeed, a hull is a relatively simple thing. It simply takes a long time to build because of it's size.

Oh, and at the risk of sounding a bit rude. Could we please write more into ship schematics than a list of systems? I have to say, some descriptions on the ship's mission profile, and how it achieves it's goals would be far more preferable to a page and a half of system listings.

Killman, for the umpteenth time, achieving orbit is a cakewalk with inertial dampeners, you can't compare the space shuttle with a 302. But you guys are totally right on the expensive electronics part. The question is, how would things like nano-fabrication impact these costs?