Fanfic Pet Peeves

[suse]

Thanks for the explanations. I still don't get it though. I guess it's just one thing I'm destnied to not understand, probably becasue I don't generally do the fandom thing.

I can understand not reading something with a certain relationship because it comes off as totally unrealistic, but that requires actually trying the fic first. I mean, heck, it happens with the standard ships. I can't count how many O'Neill/Carter fics I walked away from because they just weren't.... right. But that doesn't mean seeing J/S is going to send me packing without even looking. I guess that's the component that doesn't compute for me - automatically dismissing a fic, based solely on the declared relationship(s), without giving it a chance. Who knows, maybe that's the one person who can pull it off and keep everyone in character. Or maybe the relationship's so minor a component it would be palatable. But you'll never know if you don't even give it a chance.

I don't know. I guess I'm the odd ball on this issue. I just look at my own stuff and when I started, I never once dreamed it would go Baal/Carter, but it did and it worked. I never considered not developing the relationship once I realized how much it worked but I fully expected to lose people because of this very issue. And you know, I was surprised, it didn't happen - at least not en masse. So I dunno, maybe people need to stray beyond their comfort zones every once in a little while.

I shall now step off the soapbox and return to lurkdom.

I can pretty much guarantee you lost people en masse as soon as they saw it was a Carter fic. A lot can be forgiven if the writing is good.

See, I have no desire to stray beyond my comfort zone in certain areas. Slash squicks me out. Period. And, I don't buy what the author is trying to sell. I could probably do S/D. I'm willing to bet someone does it well. But... in the end I'm just not interested enough to try. Perhaps if someone I trusted recommended one... I also won't do fic focusing on Mitchell. I couldn't care less about his thoughts and motivations. Again, it comes down to my opinion of his writing. And imo the canon <<coughcough>> writers did too poor a job (as well as placing him in team lead position) for me to suspend any disbelief. Just. Not. Interested. Oddly enough, I'll give the Vala ones a try. Usually the fanfic Vala is better than the on screen Vala. Go figure. I guess I can ignore her origins because she's written differently. Mitchell, it's supersupersuper unlikely that a Mitchell fan will write him as anything but Da Hewo In Charge. And I got enough of that on SG-1. Bitter, me?

I love team fic. I'll read S/J if it's well-written. I've stopped tons a few sentences/paragraphs pages into it depending on the grammar and plot.

But why would I try something - no matter how well-written - that I know will vilify the characters/situations I like?

ETA: I'm plenty tolerant of other pairings. Or at least keep my mouth shut/don't read the fics. I don't jump all over people for their pairings. I certainly don't have an OTP. But I do have characters I prefer. And they can be shipped as long as it makes sense. AUs make sense. (As long as they aren't sexually charged teens in space AUs like in 200.).

ETA,A: What Sky said below. Mostly.

suse

[Skydiver]

often for me it's not as much the pairings, but how the characters are written to facilitate the pairings.

is daniel warped into a wussy widdle delicate flower to facilitate jack/daniel? or is jack turned into an uncaring jerk to make a HC fic easier to happen? such as jack being uncaring enough to ALLOW a member of his team to get hurt? or jack letting his temper allowe someone to get hurt?

or sam being a weak, weeping soul so that jack can come and save her?

bad characterizations abound, and when bad characterizations are mandatory to make a ship work, i don't care for the ship. And it's less the pairing than how the characters are warped to force a pairing to happening

[sbz]

I can pretty much guarantee you lost people en masse as soon as they saw it was a Carter fic.

Yes, well that's a whole other thing. I meant lose people just because of the ship, and by the time that developed everyone who didn't do Carter-fic was long gone.

See, I have no desire to stray beyond my comfort zone in certain areas. Slash squicks me out. Period. And, I don't buy what the author is trying to sell. I could probably do S/D. I'm willing to bet someone does it well. But... in the end I'm just not interested enough to try.

ETA: I'm plenty tolerant of other pairings. Or at least keep my mouth shut/don't read the fics. I don't jump all over people for their pairings. I certainly don't have an OTP. But I do have characters I prefer. And they can be shipped as long as it makes sense. AUs make sense. (As long as they aren't sexually charged teens in space AUs like in 200.).

ETA,A: What Sky said below. Mostly.

suse

I understand people not readig slash because I see that as a whole other issue/area. And I get what both you and Sky are saying about mutating the characters (badly - because I certainly changed Carter, but not for the explicit purpose of the relationship) to force them into the relationship. But I mean the fics that don't do that, that are well written, that do portray realistic, in character relationships - shouldn't they be given a chance? Gah, whatever, I'm talking in circles now.

And just to be annoying,

But why would I try something - no matter how well-written - that I know will vilify the characters/situations I like?

...shouldn't something that's well-written, by definition, not vilify anyone or be steeped in the writer's personal bias(es)?

And now, to be on topic. Another peeve - when characters don't think about other characters properly. As in, Teal'c thinks of Carter as anything other than Captain/Major/Colonel Carter, Carter thinks of O'Neill as Jack (unless they're dating/married or something), and so on and so forth. It strikes me as out of character.

[Skydiver]

it can be chicken and the egg with the pairings.

One major reason i don't care to read slash...dude, i see jack and daniel as soooo straight that seeing them as a couple just kinda warps it too far for me. The same thing about sam/janet. I just can't wrap my head around it so it pulls me out of the fic.

sometimes what exacerbates the situation is such a proportion of the writers that write a pairing write it so out of character that it becomes the norm.

For example, for a good chunk of the Hurt/comfort fans, to 'hurt' daniel they'd overblow his naivete, his shyness, his 'hugging himself' his selflessness, etc, and turn him into the 98 pound weakling. And someone that would take DAniel and turn him into Danny would get so much feedback, then someone else will base their characterizations on the first writer's, then a third writer follows suit, and a fourth, etc, and the next thing y ou know, 'widdle weak danny' becomes how the majority of the writers write him. And how they want to see him written.

One person's interpretation becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

SBZ, your sam IS OOC. But you know, she is for a reason. And you showed us how she got there. She's less out of character and more evolved. And you took the time to show us how she evolved.

I find that much better than those that just skip to the end and tell the reader 'yeah, so this is how i see her, get over it'

[sbz]

SBZ, your sam IS OOC. But you know, she is for a reason. And you showed us how she got there. She's less out of character and more evolved. And you took the time to show us how she evolved.

I find that much better than those that just skip to the end and tell the reader 'yeah, so this is how i see her, get over it'

Definitely compared to the Sam Carter of canon. But my Carter isn't that Sam, which is the whole point - they're different and therefore, one can't be an OOC version of the other. I guess I'm weird on this issue too - if a fic changes a character, shows us how it happened and why, then I don't consider it to be "out of character" because if it's a logical progression of events in the story it's character evolution/development etc - you know, the kind of stuff TV shows don't generally do or carry through. My definiton of OOC is someone acting a way not seen on the show at all and there's no internal explanation for that behaviour in the fic. Just because something goes AU and changes the characters (and does it well, not just wham! BAM! different person now), I don't see how that can be called OOC. It's a different character, yes, but out of character? No, I don't buy that.

[starfox]

I can understand not reading something with a certain relationship because it comes off as totally unrealistic, but that requires actually trying the fic first. I mean, heck, it happens with the standard ships. I can't count how many O'Neill/Carter fics I walked away from because they just weren't.... right. But that doesn't mean seeing J/S is going to send me packing without even looking. I guess that's the component that doesn't compute for me - automatically dismissing a fic, based solely on the declared relationship(s), without giving it a chance. Who knows, maybe that's the one person who can pull it off and keep everyone in character. Or maybe the relationship's so minor a component it would be palatable. But you'll never know if you don't even give it a chance.

I don't know. I guess I'm the odd ball on this issue. I just look at my own stuff and when I started, I never once dreamed it would go Baal/Carter, but it did and it worked. I never considered not developing the relationship once I realized how much it worked but I fully expected to lose people because of this very issue. And you know, I was surprised, it didn't happen - at least not en masse. So I dunno, maybe people need to stray beyond their comfort zones every once in a little while.

I shall now step off the soapbox and return to lurkdom.

A lot of times certain pairings require a re-interpretation of canon on the part of a reader who doesn't support that ship, and it's just more work than it's worth. For example, a John/Teyla fic would require me to completely reinterpret my reading of every scene they've had together in the show, because my interpretation of canon tells me that a romantic relationship between the two of them would never work out. I can read a fic where they're having sex but not in a romantic relationship; I can read a fic where one of them has unrequited feelings for the other (although if the person pining is Teyla, it would have to be really well-written for me to buy it). But I can't buy them as a couple. Some writers I really respect and whose other works I like have done it and I've tried to read it; I can't get more than a paragraph or two in. It just isn't there for me.

I have similar issues with Sheppard/Cadman. Their personalities don't mix romantically, IMO, and to create a relationship there would require a shift in characterization that I cannot believe. I can believe them as exes or as a brief fling, but I can't put them in a serious, long-term romantic relationship and believe it.
(I have problems reading most Sheppard-het that's not PWP; my reading of John doesn't pair him well with most women.)


I guess I feel about this the same way some people feel about slash; just replace but so-and-so isn't gay! with but so-and-so would never date character X! If I'm coming in to a fic with an interpretation of canon that goes directly against whatever pairing the fic is trying to show, the fic isn't going to work for me. I can only suspend my disbelief so much.

[Womble]

Frankly, I find the whole shipping thing puzzling. Whenever a story has a shipping indication in its title, it immediately raises a red flag for me, because it's an almost sure sign that the writer is more concerned by getting their chosen characters together than by the story's more important elements.

[Skydiver]

Definitely compared to the Sam Carter of canon. But my Carter isn't that Sam, which is the whole point - they're different and therefore, one can't be an OOC version of the other. I guess I'm weird on this issue too - if a fic changes a character, shows us how it happened and why, then I don't consider it to be "out of character" because if it's a logical progression of events in the story it's character evolution/development etc - you know, the kind of stuff TV shows don't generally do or carry through. My definiton of OOC is someone acting a way not seen on the show at all and there's no internal explanation for that behaviour in the fic. Just because something goes AU and changes the characters (and does it well, not just wham! BAM! different person now), I don't see how that can be called OOC. It's a different character, yes, but out of character? No, I don't buy that.

that's what i was trying to say. She's not 'out of character' per se, she's changed into something else, and your story showed how she changed.

[sbz]

that's what i was trying to say. She's not 'out of character' per se, she's changed into something else, and your story showed how she changed.

Ah, we're in agreement then. Cool.

And I totally agree with Womble. If the main relationship is the biggest thing the writer feels the need to advertise, it's probably not something I want to read because that's obviously their focus. I can handle the romance and ship so long as it's a C, D, or E plotline, but I like my fics to actually be about something else first and foremost.

[Mousie]

As I said earlier before it vanished, or something similar.

I read mostly Sam fic, I don't mind if they really take the characters out of context because a) it's nice to see how another person see's the character and b) to be honest sometimes it makes a nice change, reading the same type of thing all the time gets samey and boring.

I really don't mind any sort of story as long as it is well written and explained. I remember a fic from years ago that was set in an Evil ST universe type place, where everyone wanted power and schemed an connived to get it. That story had a Sam/Hammond pairing, but it fitted in the context of the fic. In that universe if you didn't have power yourself you got it by who you allied yourself with until you could take them out and take their place. In the SGC Hammond is the most powerful so Sam was in a relationship with him. Many people would possibly be squicked out by that, saying "he's almost like her father" (like Daniel is almost her brother to some) but at the end of the day he isn't. Wh know he knew Jacob but not how close Hammond was to him before the SGC or really how much he knew Jacob's family.

Things I hate include:

Sam/Janet where the author then goes on to write Jack as a backwater redneck who has just come down from the mountains and has all the sensitivity of a brick.

Sam/Daniel where they write the pairing as the unification of 2 brilliant minds, destined to be together, the ultimate pairing of 2 geniuses that was meant to be. Sam as the lesser of the pairing to Daniels 'manly' primary. Just because she might be with him doesn't mean she suddenly looses her indipendance.

[madaline_7]

Frankly, I find the whole shipping thing puzzling. Whenever a story has a shipping indication in its title, it immediately raises a red flag for me, because it's an almost sure sign that the writer is more concerned by getting their chosen characters together than by the story's more important elements.

(I wrote a really good response last night to this.... Egads! And now... it's been erased by that time loop thing... Hopefully I can remember most of what I said)

For as much as you may not understand writing the ship, there is a place for it. I write the J/S ship. The fic that I am posting now is nothing but about the ship. There is a definite need (or want as it were) for nothing but ship fics to exist.

There are times when I want to read fic, that all I want to read is fluffy ship fic. I enjoy the fact that they are out there, and that they are not written as a bad Harlequin Romance.

Although I do understand what you and sbz are saying, but you don't read for the ship... there are people out there (myself included) who do. Not that I don't enjoy a good team fic, not that I don't enjoy a fic that is not about a ship.

I think that the problem is the way that they author approaches the story. If they have laid out a good plot line, and then abandon it for the ship, then the problem isn't with the ship, it is with the way that the author has approached their own story.

(Not as good as last night... but I tried! )

[silly sally]

Oh gosh, where to start...

ok, let's see...

1. Teal'c... or any other character who doesn't speak colloquial English naturally, using contractions. It's wrong unless there's a bona fide reason (like Holiday... but that was act. Jack inside T-man... ok, that sounded weird...)
2. grammatical/spelling errors -- ok, there are writers whose first language isn't English so it can be a grey area in general depending on the quality of the story. The ones where it's so obvious that no proofreading was carried out really get my goat
3. OOC -- ok... e.g.
   
   Sam being: wimpy, piney, a slapper/tramp, ignorant
   Daniel being: wimpy; an absolute saint who can do no wrong and can act. get away with worse things that other characters get punished for
   Jack being: totally stupid; way, way, way too chatty (I know he's Irish but come on...); a closet chef (come on...)
   Teal'c being: the source of all known... and unknown linguistic jokes; practically all brawn and nothing else
   Cam being: too peppy, optimistic, and country boy
   Vala being: too clingy and quiet
4. Authors who are incredibly condescending and insist that their interpretations of the characters are correct despite having a preference for one particular character and making him an amazing saint </rant>
5. Authors who can't take constructive criticism in reviews
6. Gushing reviews -- while flattering to the author, they can lull them into a false sense of security if they think they're great in the first place, and their writing style can remain static for years (hoo, boy) as well as their poor character portraits
7. Characters being made OOC to fit 'ships, 'canon' or otherwise -- not saying anything more unless I get flamed heavily, so... *shrug*
8. Flame reviews -- if you don't like a 'ship, and it's clearly marked as such-and-such, dear God, no-one wants to know whether you don't like that 'ship and won't read it. Not interested
9. Unmarked 'ships -- where 'ships are not clearly marked in summaries/main work. For example, a SamDaniel friend of mine was reading a fic marked as CamVala, and didn't appreciate the SamJack wedding thrown in out of the blue

Umm... I think that's about it for now. It was a very good distraction from the ultimate crapness that is Daredevil, so... um, thanks!

: )

I agree on all other points but one since you write Sam/Daniel which is clearly OOC (both At, MS think Sam and Daniel are like siblings and so do most of TPTB)

Thanks! I don't think I've ever read a fic like that and I now have no desire to. It sounds like it would hit my "sap tolerance" verrrry quickly.

Another thing I don't get, and this isn't a peeve or anything, just something I don't understand in the least, is the aversion to other pairings. I understand someone being a shipper of <insert pairing of choice>, but to the exclusion of all others? To the degree it makes someone not read a story at all if they see D/V or J/S or whatever - that I don't get. I can handle anything so long as it's well written and not cliche.

Why don't you get that some people just want to read SJ ship fics maybe we a touch of action/adventure...

Thanks for the explanations. I still don't get it though. I guess it's just one thing I'm destnied to not understand, probably becasue I don't generally do the fandom thing.

I can understand not reading something with a certain relationship because it comes off as totally unrealistic, but that requires actually trying the fic first. I mean, heck, it happens with the standard ships. I can't count how many O'Neill/Carter fics I walked away from because they just weren't.... right. But that doesn't mean seeing J/S is going to send me packing without even looking. I guess that's the component that doesn't compute for me - automatically dismissing a fic, based solely on the declared relationship(s), without giving it a chance. Who knows, maybe that's the one person who can pull it off and keep everyone in character. Or maybe the relationship's so minor a component it would be palatable. But you'll never know if you don't even give it a chance.

I don't know. I guess I'm the odd ball on this issue. I just look at my own stuff and when I started, I never once dreamed it would go Baal/Carter, but it did and it worked. I never considered not developing the relationship once I realized how much it worked but I fully expected to lose people because of this very issue. And you know, I was surprised, it didn't happen - at least not en masse. So I dunno, maybe people need to stray beyond their comfort zones every once in a little while.

I shall now step off the soapbox and return to lurkdom.

You lost me as a reader when it became Ba'am, I would have understood Sam/Teal'c in that universe, but for me Sam/Baal will always be too OOC for Sam unless she's an unwilling host to Baa'l's queen or unless she's playing him (though Vala would be perfect in that role)

[SamJackShipLover]

(I wrote a really good response last night to this.... Egads! And now... it's been erased by that time loop thing... Hopefully I can remember most of what I said)

For as much as you may not understand writing the ship, there is a place for it. I write the J/S ship. The fic that I am posting now is nothing but about the ship. There is a definite need (or want as it were) for nothing but ship fics to exist.

There are times when I want to read fic, that all I want to read is fluffy ship fic. I enjoy the fact that they are out there, and that they are not written as a bad Harlequin Romance.

Although I do understand what you and sbz are saying, but you don't read for the ship... there are people out there (myself included) who do. Not that I don't enjoy a good team fic, not that I don't enjoy a fic that is not about a ship.

I think that the problem is the way that they author approaches the story. If they have laid out a good plot line, and then abandon it for the ship, then the problem isn't with the ship, it is with the way that the author has approached their own story.

(Not as good as last night... but I tried! )

I thought it was pretty good and I agree

[hedwig]

Oh gosh, where to start...

ok, let's see...

1. Teal'c... or any other character who doesn't speak colloquial English naturally, using contractions. It's wrong unless there's a bona fide reason (like Holiday... but that was act. Jack inside T-man... ok, that sounded weird...)
2. grammatical/spelling errors -- ok, there are writers whose first language isn't English so it can be a grey area in general depending on the quality of the story. The ones where it's so obvious that no proofreading was carried out really get my goat
3. OOC -- ok... e.g.
   
   Sam being: wimpy, piney, a slapper/tramp, ignorant
   Daniel being: wimpy; an absolute saint who can do no wrong and can act. get away with worse things that other characters get punished for
   Jack being: totally stupid; way, way, way too chatty (I know he's Irish but come on...); a closet chef (come on...)
   Teal'c being: the source of all known... and unknown linguistic jokes; practically all brawn and nothing else
   Cam being: too peppy, optimistic, and country boy
   Vala being: too clingy and quiet
4. Authors who are incredibly condescending and insist that their interpretations of the characters are correct despite having a preference for one particular character and making him an amazing saint </rant>
5. Authors who can't take constructive criticism in reviews
6. Gushing reviews -- while flattering to the author, they can lull them into a false sense of security if they think they're great in the first place, and their writing style can remain static for years (hoo, boy) as well as their poor character portraits
7. Characters being made OOC to fit 'ships, 'canon' or otherwise -- not saying anything more unless I get flamed heavily, so... *shrug*
8. Flame reviews -- if you don't like a 'ship, and it's clearly marked as such-and-such, dear God, no-one wants to know whether you don't like that 'ship and won't read it. Not interested
9. Unmarked 'ships -- where 'ships are not clearly marked in summaries/main work. For example, a SamDaniel friend of mine was reading a fic marked as CamVala, and didn't appreciate the SamJack wedding thrown in out of the blue

Umm... I think that's about it for now. It was a very good distraction from the ultimate crapness that is Daredevil, so... um, thanks.: )

These are great. You've listed many of my own pet peeves. I may be guilty of leaving a "gushing" review or two, but it was only because I really, really liked the story and it was well written, if a bit OOC.

Your comment about Sam being "wimpy" is another. I've read stories where the author(s) seemed to use Sam as nothing more than a punching bag in the story, and Sam pretty much allowed it to happen, and cried and such - so the author can then use Jack as the "knight in shining armor" character who comes to her rescue.

[Skydiver]

Why don't you get that some people just want to read SJ ship fics maybe we a touch of action/adventure...

Why don't you get that some people dont'???

Just because sam and jack is YOUR preference, doesn't mean that it's the only valid or real or 'right' pairing out there.

For every pairing/non-pairing, there's an audience. and NONE of them are the only right ones