'Infection' (517) General Discussion

[Ruffles]

I think the Keller-Todd scene was shoehorned in. It didn't make sense at all and I don't see the purpose of it. She's not saying Sheppard has compassion, but she is saying that Sheppard views compassion as a weakness like Todd because Sheppard is a soldier. And the line about Sheppard using different tools to save lives as a job description is a joke. Sure, Sheppard may be saving lives, but he's doing that by TAKING them. Which is what Todd just said. All Keller did was "pretty" it up.

Basically, my reaction is, "What the heck are you talking about, Keller?" At the moment, the only point of this scene that I can see is to show how Keller views the idea of compassion, Sheppard, and Todd. And how would Keller know that Todd doesn't understand compassion and see it as a weakness anyways? If this is a writer's attempt at making Keller being profound, it failed. It was going somewhere but it went around the bend and doesn't make sense.

I disagree, especially with the bolded part. The intent was to highlight the differences in the ways humans and Wraith see things - much like many of the conversations between Sheppard and Todd in Common Ground. "There are many things you don't know about Wraith." followed by "Well, there's a lot you don't know about humans." It's also to a throwback to the brilliant conversation between Todd and Keller in First Contact where Todd muses on who the Wraith would be without the ability to feed. And I'm certain Keller's knowledge of how Todd views compassion comes from working closely with him on the Daedalus.

Keller was not saying Sheppard views compassion as a weakness. She was saying he shows it in different ways (with different tools). Saving lives (the lives of the expedition members and the other humans in the galaxy) is what drives Sheppard (see Remnants for more on that).

Her conversation with Todd here stemmed from her comment that she didn't mean this (the Wraith being infected) to happen which Todd laughed at. If Sheppard (and the expedition) had meant to kill the Wraith with that serum (that, again, Todd stole), they could have. What they were attempting was to keep the Wraith alive. That's compassion which Todd saw as weak.

And Keller was right about Sheppard. He let Todd go. Did he benefit from it? *shrugs* If Todd lives and if he doesn't doublecross them again. But Sheppard was willing to take the risk. Why? To save lives.

Loved the fight between Sheppard and Todd. Got a speculation about Todd's hurt over Sheppard's statement of, "I don't owe you anything." Because of the way JF and CH acted, I think Todd wasn't talking about debts and their scorecard when he said that Sheppard owed him. I think Todd was talking about themselves. That Sheppard owed it to the relationship between them. He was really saying, "You owe it to us." And Sheppard knew it. His expression and eyes, and the way he kept looking at Todd as he was lead away by the marines, showed that he was unhappy. Sheppard looked liked he was holding back tears. He knows he just told Todd that, whatever it is between them, he decided it doesn't mean anything to him.

Todd hurt? Hmmm... I didn't see that. Angry, maybe. And Sheppard holding back tears? I definitely didn't see that. I saw indecision, maybe disappointment. And I don't think Todd meant their relationship either. He looked pointedly at his useless feeding hand before he said it. He was blaming Sheppard for the infection that was killing him. Sheppard told him flat out that he didn't owe him anything. It wasn't Sheppard's fault that Todd stole the serum and used it without medical supervision. Sheppard wasn't willing to risk the lives of his people because Todd made a few bad decisions.

I'm also thinking that, personally and emotionally, part of the reason why Todd's so willing to do the gene therapy is because he feels he owes it to their relationship to find another way to survive. There are practical and opportunistic reasons, but there's this thing between them that allows them to work together that they FINALLY played on in this episode. The conflict of interests that forces them to mistrust and anticipate one another what makes the Sheppard-Todd relationship so great.

Well, we almost agreed here. But I don't think Todd is basing his decision to use the gene therapy on the relationship with Sheppard. Perhaps on what he's learned about humans that has resulted from that relationship.

I do find it very interesting how hurt Todd was by Sheppard's reply, "I don't owe you anything." In the Wraith cell, Todd was facing the wall, with his back toward the bars. That reads as defensive behavior to me; hiding his pain and dealing with it away from the outside world. His remark that Sheppard couldn't let him be makes me think that at the moment, he'd rather Sheppard go away because he brought him pain. Todd is really acting like Sheppard made him cry. It's such a human reaction.

Which brings me to this question: why did Sheppard have such an affect on Todd?

Where you see hurt, I see anger. It also made for dramatic television for him to have to turn to face Sheppard. Todd is dying. Sheppard refused to help him. He's sitting in a cell on his own ship that's falling apart around him because of a decision he made. He was stewing.

But I think there are factors about all those circumstances that has to be taken in account. It's simplifying the complexities if you just look at Todd's actions and disregard the circumstances and reasons. And he does always have something up his sleeve, but it's always as a preparatory precaution exercised as a reaction. While Sheppard's precautionary measures are usually preemptive; do this-or-that before they betray us. As Carter said, "Betray them before they betray us." While Todd's precautions are If They Betray Me I Will Do This.

Really. Todd stealing the gate addresses for Midway was a precaution? For what? Todd using the alliance against the Replicators to steal a ZPM was a precaution for what? Todd always has his own agenda. Does he have his reasons? Of course. I never said he didn't. But as Teyla said once, "They are Wraith." Sheppard and company have good reason to be preemptive. They've learned to not trust because of how many times they've been betrayed. John has no reason to trust Todd. Sheppard doesn't take kindly to having his people threatened (remember Todd threatening to feed on Woolsey?).

Todd and Sheppard are not friends. They are not brothers. They are not colleagues or co-workers or allies. They are two beings who distrust each other but are forced to work together occasionally to defeat the things in the galaxy that are worse. They are cautiously trying to make a way for their peoples to live in peace.

[StarOcean]

I disagree, especially with the bolded part. The intent was to highlight the differences in the ways humans and Wraith see things

If that was the intent, it wasn't executed well. And none of what was said was about the difference of seeing things, save for the opinion on what Sheppard's job is. Which she has an very romanticized way of putting it. Each point they made to each other did not construct any meaning.

From the transcript:
KELLER: I'm sorry. I never meant for any of this to happen. I honestly thought the treatment would make things better for everyone.

KELLER: What's funny?

TODD: I find it amusing, human apologising to Wraith.

KELLER: That's 'cause you don't understand compassion. You just view it as a sign of weakness.

What does not understanding compassion, and thinking it's a weakness, have anything to do with Todd finding it funny? Todd is not an evil villain who dismisses ethics and morals and laughs at people who have them. It's funny to him because of the nature of the relationship between human and Wraith: their food source has caused the predator pain and the prey is apologizing for it.

I can see Keller's response being as a snipe though. She's apologizing and feeling guilty, but Todd is laughing at it. From that line and onwards, Keller's tone becomes hard and condescending. (And I get the feeling she's dismissive of Todd's perspective of things. Which is jarring for me because I thought Keller's character was suppose to be more open-minded and sensitive of other cultures. Her tone was terrible for that scene.)

But now Keller has changed the topic to one about compassion and Todd brings Sheppard into it.

TODD: Isn't it?

KELLER: No, not by a long shot.

TODD: I'm not sure Colonel Sheppard would agree with you.

KELLER: Colonel Sheppard's a soldier. I'm a doctor.

So Todd thinks compassion is a weakness and he thinks Sheppard may agree. Though why bring him up? Just because Sheppard may share that opinion doesn't support his argument that compassion is a weakness. But it does show that he understands why Sheppard can't act on any sentimental feelings.

Keller's response shows she agrees with him. That Sheppard wouldn't agree and has good reason to see compassion as a weakness due to differing jobs. So I don't think this is about the difference between human and Wraith views when Sheppard likely shares the same view as Todd.

I do think it's likely that the writers were trying to present that Sheppard is compassionate and saving lives drives him in that scene. But the execution doesn't work. First because it doesn't make sense. Secondly, we already know this of Sheppard, and the way the dialogue is set up actually detracts from this fact.

And even if Keller was suppose to come off as saying that Sheppard doesn't see compassion as a weakness it's out of place in relation to Todd. Because compassion is a weakness for Sheppard when it comes to Todd. That's one of Sheppard's internal conflict.

TODD: Ah, yes. His job is to take lives and yours is to save them.

Todd agrees that Sheppard would have good reason to disagree with her. That it is because of their different jobs. However, Keller thinks Todd's view of Sheppard's job is wrong. Which is a new topic.

KELLER: No – his job is also to save lives. He just has a different set of tools.

That line really doesn't work. I get that she's trying to say that Sheppard's duty is to save lives. (Which I disagree with.) But to say he has different tools? Those tools are weapons, combat tactics, and security protocols against other lives. It's not the same thing. Because part of his job is to take lives in order to save others. (So really, they're both wrong when it comes to the Lantean soldiers.)

However, this doesn't tell Todd, or us, anything new about Sheppard himself. We already know Sheppard has compassion; wants to save his own and other human lives. Todd brings this up himself in The Seer and in Kindred. All Keller is doing is telling Todd what she thinks what a soldier is. So while I think Keller's opinion about soldiers might have been a revelation to Todd, Sheppard shouldn't have been.

TODD: Hmm!

*sigh* Continuity! You left a message telling Sheppard that you were the best hope of distributing the therapy and thereby saving human lives! Why are you being thoughtful? *smacks Todd*

And I'm certain Keller's knowledge of how Todd views compassion comes from working closely with him on the Daedalus.

I don't believe that Keller would know this during the time they worked together. They weren't working together long before Todd took over and they didn't appear to talk much outside of the gene therapy. Todd only opened up for a moment and when he realized he was doing it, he shutup quick. Also, Todd was the one who brought up the point that it would be good for humans and that he needed to convince his people to take the therapy so that they could leave the humans alone. Which then Keller pointed out that the therapy was for the Wraith's benefit too.

So I think Keller's comment about compassion in Infection is out of the blue.

Keller was not saying Sheppard views compassion as a weakness. She was saying he shows it in different ways (with different tools). Saving lives (the lives of the expedition members and the other humans in the galaxy) is what drives Sheppard (see Remnants for more on that).

Sorry, but right now, I can't agree with this because of the way the scene was setup.

Oh, and I'm not saying that Sheppard doesn't have compassion. And I'm not saying that Todd doesn't know Sheppard has it.

Her conversation with Todd here stemmed from her comment that she didn't mean this (the Wraith being infected) to happen which Todd laughed at. If Sheppard (and the expedition) had meant to kill the Wraith with that serum (that, again, Todd stole), they could have.

I'm not sure, but do you mean that Todd is laughing because he doesn't believe that Keller is sorry? Because I didn't see it that way.

What they were attempting was to keep the Wraith alive.

Except they weren't trying to keep the Wraith alive. Keller, maybe, but not the others.

And Keller was right about Sheppard. He let Todd go.

I don't think Keller was right. Not on the compassion front anyways because supposedly she's arguing that Sheppard doesn't see compassion as a weakness.

Compassion is tricky when it comes to Sheppard and Todd. They have it for each other, and I really think Todd doesn't care about other humans lives but Sheppard's, but they can't do anything about it. It is a weakness between them. So it comes down to trust in their form of honor. Sheppard let Todd go because he gave his word. The basis for their relationship is their trust in honoring their deals. Which has been on shaky grounds since The Seer. They both made missteps. If compassion has a place with them, then it might be compassion that makes them risk trusting each other to honor their deals. Except I'm not sure if calling it compassion is accurate. There's another word for it but I'm at loss.

If Todd lives and if he doesn't doublecross them again.

I don't think Todd ever doublecrossed the Lanteans when they didn't do it first.

Todd hurt? Hmmm... I didn't see that. Angry, maybe. And Sheppard holding back tears? I definitely didn't see that I saw indecision, maybe disappointment.

Hurt and angry. But I was focused on the hurt, because that was the part that surprised me. Sheppard was hurt too and disappointed that it came to this. Hence, the wet eye look. Heck, they both were hurt, angry, and disappointed. I think they were also feeling betrayed over something they've never agreed from each other.

And I don't think Todd meant their relationship either. He looked pointedly at his useless feeding hand before he said it. He was blaming Sheppard for the infection that was killing him. Sheppard told him flat out that he didn't owe him anything. It wasn't Sheppard's fault that Todd stole the serum and used it without medical supervision. Sheppard wasn't willing to risk the lives of his people because Todd made a few bad decisions.

I'm interpreting that scene differently so have to disagree with you. Todd looked at his hand because he forgot he gave up feeding. And I don't think Todd really blames Sheppard. I think he's trying to get Sheppard to help him out. He's angrily regretting that things have turned out this way and is lashing out. All their history, mistakes, and issues with one another came to head there.

Well, we almost agreed here. But I don't think Todd is basing his decision to use the gene therapy on the relationship with Sheppard. Perhaps on what he's learned about humans that has resulted from that relationship.

Oh, I didn't mean their relationship was the driving force behind Todd's decision to use the gene therapy. I think it's the reason why he was willing to consider the therapy AND to coexist (leave them alone) with humans, probably by working with Sheppard afterward. I really don't get the feeling that Todd plans to enslave or annihilate the humans post-therapy. He's willing to do things the hard way if he can get control over the Wraith. The same can't be said for the rest of the Wraith. Which is why Sheppard can't let himself trust Todd. As far as we and Sheppard knows, Todd's unique. There's no guarantee Todd can control his own race. Similar reason why they can't trust Ladon; he doesn't have control over all Genii.

Really. Todd stealing the gate addresses for Midway was a precaution? For what? Todd using the alliance against the Replicators to steal a ZPM was a precaution for what?

I was referring to precautions in the event of betrayal. (subspace transmitter, incomplete virus, stun stick) Those are something else with attaching factors. From the Lantaen side, we know there were planning to betray Todd. We don't know that Todd plans to betray them. The side effect of never seeing Todd's pov is that it appears Todd is acting more honorably than the Sheppard.

Todd always has his own agenda. Does he have his reasons? Of course. I never said he didn't.

I know. It's the same with Atlantis.

Sheppard and company have good reason to be preemptive. They've learned to not trust because of how many times they've been betrayed.

Weren't they only betrayed once when they decided to trust the Wraith and that was by Michael's Queen? Or do you mean all the betrayals? Which I think is unfair to place all that on Todd.

It's understandable that Atlantis was being preemptive. They just lost Heighmeyer and Weir. But I think they've made some bad calls with Todd starting in The Seer.

John has no reason to trust Todd. Sheppard doesn't take kindly to having his people threatened (remember Todd threatening to feed on Woolsey?).

And at that point Todd believed Sheppard betrayed him. He was disappointed about it too.

[prion]

The age a person look and their actual age are completely two different things

Or acting their age *cough* In Hollywood, no one looks their age due to Botox, plastic surgery, injections, you name it. Young is the name of the game, which is why the 'old' folk are also being ditched for the yung'uns on SGU

[amconway]

In Hollywood, no one looks their age due to Botox, plastic surgery, injections, you name it. Young is the name of the game, which is why the 'old' folk are also being ditched for the yung'uns on SGU

Yep. Pretty sad that actors become unemployable if they don't go under the knife. That's just so wrong. It leads to 25 year old neurosurgeons. Nothing scary about that...

[Mitchell82]

Kinda reminded me of Star Wars Episode 3. Ship breaking apart and falling to the surface. At least Todd was able to fly half a ship.

I thought so too. Clever IMO.

[GoSpikey]

I thought this episode was a great action episode but it just made no sense.

TRYING to Help Todd after waht he did made no sense, b/c even if he does live he's not going to help distribute a drug that nearly killed him and made his ugly a** soldiers go native on every body.

Maybe the reason those things went crazy b/c thier blood sugar was low, god man carry a freakin candy bar and stop eating people.

And what was up with the Hive changing so much, hell I was waiting for optimus prime to pop up.

Like I said this episode had good action it just made no sense.

When you put things like that, I can see why it doesn't make sense to you...

[nx01a]

"Cancer! Oh no! And they landed a 7 mile long asteroid!"

The Good:
>Teyla's competent! She's making good decisions, asking valid questions, trying to pilot the half hive... She's like the smart cast member who realizes she's in a sci-fi show and acts accordingly. I'm loving how she's portrayed this season... when she's portrayed at all.
>Woolsey made the right call, sticking to the cloak. We've seen the shield raised in time to stop imcoming darts from orbit, maybe the same would work for switching from cloak to shield to combat Wraith bolts.
>Todd coming to Atlantis for help. Mind you, wouldn't other hives wonder why this one is heading for a planet thought uninhabited? I mean, if I were a Wraith, I'd monitor every move Todd makes as best I could. Cause he is Todd!
>Angry Todd going to feed on Shep but realizing he couldn't.
>Rodney/Keller shoulder rub. I'm neither here nor there on the relationship, but it was nice to see him reassuring her that she could do it. She's always so hesitant and living in the shadow of Beckett, as she should be, but she needs to grow a pair and pull a Rodney, making the impossible take a few minutes.
>I guess we know where the bridge is located on the hive now.
>Teyla used her Wraith DNA! John used his ATA gene! We saw the control chair! YAY!
>Wraith soldier minus the face-hugger. Interesting, if a bit too stock long-toothed monster.
>Literally hungry Wraith! Give em some of that fruit that tastes just as good as the farmers who grew it.
>Letting Todd go. Right call, Woolsey, and nice worrying about the job. Todd is the best ally Atlantis has, an ally who can't suck the life out of you anymore. Unfortunately, we seem to keep getting our best ally's ships and loyal crews destroyed. That's two hives and two cruisers now, right?

The Bad:
>Todd and Shep didn't shake hands at the gate. I wanted them to shake hands at the gate!
>So... Why is Ronon the one in the photo on the first page of this thread? You'd figure Todd should be there, or a starving Wraith guard.
>So... We've thought for years that the Wraith soldiers were mind-controlled? Hmm.
>Not realizing that Wraith biotechnology, designed to be affected by Wraith DNA, might be affected by a compound designed to alter Wraith DNA. Stupid people.
>Oh my God! It was like watching The Fog... I mean, Whispers all over again.
>Enough of the Ronon 'Kill the Wraith' already.
>So, you won't communicate through the cloak because it'll give away your position... but you'll send an uncloaked jumper out of the cloaked city and have it cloak in orbit. Right. Great needless and counterproductive reuse of a cgi effect.
>So Atlantis wasn't monitoring the status of the hive? "My God, Mr. Woolsey! There's a massive structural anomaly running across the hive! It could split in half! Let's get jumpers up there!"
>So we're so dumb now as to leave jumpers unattended? After years of getting seperated from them, wouldn't smart people leave a pilot in at least one in case of emergency?
>They landed an chunk of 7 mile long ship from vertical dive that easily and smoothly?
Well, at least everyone was knocked unconscious.
>Why on Earth would Todd test the drug on himself? Much less give it to the entire crew? Todd is not that dumb.
>And I refuse to believe that Todd, amidst all that Asgard goodness, would just take the drug info. With Asgard upgrades, he'd never need to worry about other hives or the humans. If the writers don't show that Todd has stolen advanced tech from the Daedalus, I will be grossly disappointed.
>How does Todd making himself basically a non-Wraith affect his standing within his own alliance, much less among other hives? It seems highly stupid for a tactical thinker like Todd to do something like this.
>And what if every Wraith takes the treatment if perfected and no longer has to feed? If they retain the same disregard for human life, they'll slaughter and eat humans just like cattle or poultry. Humans are still quite abundant in Pegasus and now one adult human can feed a family of 5 Wraith AND leave leftovers!
>Evil cancer again. Geez.

The Verdict:
Todd can do no wrong. The writers, however... The crash landing of the hive chunk felt more like a twist in the middle of the episode, not the big finale, and when something that massive felt like just another closed corridor, something's wrong.

Best Todd episode ever?
KELLER: No, not by a long shot.

[nx01a]

Unlike Whispers I actually jumped for this episode. When Sheppard is looking at the mist with the light or display, my heart jumped when the wraith jumped on him.

I hate those cliche scenes. You know something's going to jump out, he knows something's going to jump out. It's a basic horror movie shock technigue. Suddenly, out of nowhere, Shep et al getting attacked in the midst of a Rodney rant... Now that would have been shocking and unexpected.

[MrMann101]

I personaly really enjoyed this ep.
I thought that the story and plot were very good,and the action scenes and spec effects were brilliant.

I think this ep is in my top five of the season so far.

My Top 5 Of S5:

Spoiler:

First Contact - ****/****
The Shrine - ****/****
The Prodigal - ***1/2/****
The Lost Tribe - ***1/2/****
Infection - ***/****

It makes me wonder y atlantis was cancelled.

Using G.W ratings i would give Infection ***/****

Thanks 4 reading.(if u read it)

[elliecat]

I liked it.

Team
Todd
Woolsey
Lorne
Wraith

All good.

I was pleasantly surprised!

Only irk was the McIcky scene (was never going to like that one! )

[Lizin1219]

I think the writters have done a Micheal again...
When he parted (until re-appearing on Atlantis recently) we didn't know if he was dead or alive and where he went if he was alive.
They have done it again with Todd. Personally, I had more sympathy for Micheal. Although it was Kelly who created the therapy, it was Todd's decision to take it without contacting Atlantis first. Although Atlantis probably wouldn't have listened anyway.
It was a good close to the character, since the show is ending, I am glad he got some closure. Him taking control of the Dedalus and running away just didn't suit a proper close for him

[Commander Aegir]

I miss Ronon's sword. Would have been cool to slice a few of the wraith up.

Good Episode. Todd is awesome, would be good if they change into a human like they did Micheal.

[Elanthra]

This was such a relief after Brainstorm - I was starting to think the writers just weren't going to bother with SGA anymore...

I don't look at spoilers so I just wasn't expecting another Todd episode - hoping but not expecting - and any episode with Todd in is always excellent stuff - who would ever have thought that CH who also plays the rather bland Halling, could ever produce this character? I've been mesmerised by him ever since Common Ground, and after the Team, he's the next best thing in SGA, IMO.

And then he got to interact with JS in such a dramatic way - I just wish we could have got to see even more of that - how about a flooding Hive ship and JS rescues Todd or Todd rescues JS,(because that part of the ep was left a little too abruptly) instead of poor Todd getting sent on his way through the Gate, all alone, to presumably find his cure on his own, as no other Wraith is going to go near him, are they? Really, Keller could have been sent to assist and then that hopefully would be the end of her!

I don't pay any attention to Keller now... I've gotten used to shutting down everytime she opens her mouth because she is so damn boring... or I'm shouting at the screen 'oh hurry up, will you!' ... it seems such a shame to be wasting what little time SGA has got left on this character...

And a footnote question: were the Drone's stunners also affected by the virus-whatever? Because suddenly, no one from Atlantis was being stunned like they always are on Wraith hives... though, of course, then, no one would have been scared of the snarling and the gnashing of zombie teeth and that just wouldn't have done... perhaps the Drones were so sick they couldn't remember where they'd left their stunners...

Still, I really, really liked this ep.

[JPS]

Lorne was in it ... for more than 4 seconds... so I watched the whole thing with interest ...twice.

[pjt]

The Bad:
>Todd and Shep didn't shake hands at the gate. I wanted them to shake hands at the gate!

Now that was the most stupid missed opportunity they ever made. More so after Todd's "wraith humor" about shaking hands [whacks Alan McCullough with a rubber chicken].
The episode was rather meh, also it missed all the funny stuff that saved Whispers (well, at least for me).
This was the second episode this year (beside the cannon Ronon episode), when I just couldn't care less for the outcome, and the first time I was getting kind of impatient to watch Sanctuary.
I gave it a 7/10, since the basic idea about the faulty cure, and Todd being sick was great, but the wraith ship falling apart while we hunt mindless hungry wraith soldiers was such a cliche, that I literally flinched when it dawned on me that that was going to be the B plot (which became the A plot actually ).