"Identity" (518) Pre-Airing Discussion/Speculation Thread

[GoSpikey]

Oh, we had The Kindred Part 2 on telly today.

Keller was great in it.

And so was Carter!

I so love her voice in there!

[Mitchell82]

Oh, we had The Kindred Part 2 on telly today.

Keller was great in it.

And so was Carter!

I so love her voice in there!

It is indeed one of the best eps.

[bluealien]

That's a double edged sword dear. What you see as an ignorant character and horrible writing others disagree. He obviously can't please everyone but stop assuming that your opinion is the correct one. From my perspective and obviously tptb he is doing fine.


I must be seeing a different show because that's not what I've seen. Keller is as far from a damsel in distress as you can get. She has more than shown her ability as a CMO and does admit her mistakes. She has shown her ability in Adrift, Doppleganger, Tabula Rasa, Missing, The Seer, Quarantine, Kindred 1 and 2 The Last Man, Search and Rescue and Broken Ties. She has grown as a character and person ep by ep.

True we all see characters differently at times... so far I've seen her as annoying in Missing, not really a damsel in distress just irritating and whiny... and I guess I would just sum her up as "meh" in every other episode.. she didnt leave much of an impact ....
I hated the whole romance thing though in The Last Man... and other than that she didnt leave much of an impact either though I found her outright cringeworthy in Search and Rescue and she wouldnt convince me she was a first year med student, let alone a CMO.

[Reiko]

exactly! We have nothing againts JS, who is really great actress

» ^ What he and ARica said. Because I don't feel like stating it for the 100th time.

So, if that's what JM said, who's killing Atlantis?

» He is.

[Pandora's_Box]

We were discussing Keller's growth or lack thereof. So far, three episodes in, and no change. That was my point.

So essentially, you're looking for the writer's to do for Keller what they haven't done for any other character?

This is an episodic sci-fi television show. It has to appeal for audiences week in and week out that maybe haven't watched every single episode. That means that no character is going to undergo a significantly visible change in 3 or 4 episodes. It hasn't happened yet for any of our regulars. Why would you expect that from Keller?

At the most you can say that a character has exhibited different characteristics in certain episodes, but that's mostly for plot reasons. McKay was shown to be actually nice. Ronon has been vulnerable. Sheppard's been emotionally taxed. But by the next episode they have always reverted to the personality that audiences will most identify with. Always.

Why hold Keller to a different standard?

She wasn't a take-charge person in S&R,

Because she was a doctor in a military situation. What exactly was she supposed to take charge of? The mission?

played the victim again in The Seed

And you're holding that against her because it was obviously her choice. :: nods head :: Yeah I see that. [end sarcasm]

and spouted more emotionless medical jargon in Broken Ties. Par for the course.

One of the most oft used complaints against Keller is that she isn't professional enough. Now you're complaining when she is professional? Should she have been tearing up when she said it? Or injected some anger into her voice maybe?

Doctors are calm and near emotionless when delivering news because everyone else is often very emotional. They have to be solid and unwavering. A rock in a turbulent sea. People look to their doctors for all the answers and for the calm effectiveness it takes to perform a very difficult job.

He thought she was great in Missing. An extremely vague comment on growth for the character as she's once again endangered in the woods. I don't see anything there that suggests a significant change for Keller. What did you see that made you think there would be?

The context of the episode maybe. You know. The episode no one has seen yet.

[Cautious Explorer]

So essentially, you're looking for the writer's to do for Keller what they haven't done for any other character?

This is an episodic sci-fi television show. It has to appeal for audiences week in and week out that maybe haven't watched every single episode. That means that no character is going to undergo a significantly visible change in 3 or 4 episodes. It hasn't happened yet for any of our regulars. Why would you expect that from Keller?

At the most you can say that a character has exhibited different characteristics in certain episodes, but that's mostly for plot reasons. McKay was shown to be actually nice. Ronon has been vulnerable. Sheppard's been emotionally taxed. But by the next episode they have always reverted to the personality that audiences will most identify with. Always.

Why hold Keller to a different standard?

I'm not holding Keller to a different standard. I'd like to see growth in all of the characters. But you're right. This is episodic tv and there's little chance of it happening.

Nevertheless, I would like to see growth in Keller, because unlike the other characters, I have never liked Keller. I find her immature. The only way I expect to have any hope of liking her is if she finally grows up.

Because she was a doctor in a military situation. What exactly was she supposed to take charge of? The mission?

Because she's the head of the medical department on a mixed military/exploratory mission in another galaxy. She's the go-to person. The military can lead the rescue, pull the trapped people out of the rubble, but it's up to Keller and staff to provide medical support. I didn't see any of that. I saw a frightened girl following behind Carter and asking questions.

And you're holding that against her because it was obviously her choice. :: nods head :: Yeah I see that. [end sarcasm]

No I'm not. I'm saying that Keller lying helpless under a pile of tentacles waiting for the rest of the expedition to save her is no indication to me that TPTB intend to give her character any meaningful growth this season either.

For the record, I hate it when Teyla is forced to play damsel in distress too. It's not a favorite plot element of mine.

One of the most oft used complaints against Keller is that she isn't professional enough. Now you're complaining when she is professional? Should she have been tearing up when she said it? Or injected some anger into her voice maybe?

Are you saying that professional people are emotionless, unsympathetic and only speak in a monotone? Professional people are allowed to have emotions. I would love to see her show some anger or frustration over an inability to help someone. As long as those emotions are under control I see absolutely nothing wrong with letting them show through a bit.

Doctors are calm and near emotionless when delivering news because everyone else is often very emotional. They have to be solid and unwavering. A rock in a turbulent sea. People look to their doctors for all the answers and for the calm effectiveness it takes to perform a very difficult job.

I much preferred Beckett's style. The man showed passion for his work and enthusiasm for new discoveries. He showed sympathy for his patients without falling apart. There's no reason a doctor should be a robot. I find Keller's frozen looks, hesitant speech and flat delivery in doctor mode to be far more unsettling than any small hint of human emotion would be. (Notice I'm not suggesting dramatic outbursts or wild hysteria).

The context of the episode maybe. You know. The episode no one has seen yet.

Carl Binder hinted at "growth" for Keller. If you want to conclude that means significant growth for Keller, you're certainly within your rights to do so. I merely choose to take a more conservative view. As you said, we've not seen the episode yet. It's a little early for you to conclude that I'm wrong.

[Pandora's_Box]

I'm not holding Keller to a different standard. I'd like to see growth in all of the characters. But you're right. This is episodic tv and there's little chance of it happening.

Nevertheless, I would like to see growth in Keller, because unlike the other characters, I have never liked Keller. I find her imature. The only way I expect to have any hope of liking her is if she finally grows up.

Seeing as how your perception of her level of maturity is really a matter of personal opinion, I can't say much except that I disagree with your statement that she is immature.

Because she's the head of the medical department on a mixed military/exploratory mission in another galaxy. She's the go-to person. The military can lead the rescue, pull the trapped people out of the rubble, but it's up to Keller and staff to provide medical support. I didn't see any of that. I saw a frightened girl following behind Carter and asking questions.

Were we watching the same episode? Because I don't remember seeing too much of the rescue effort period. All we did see was the part where the military led the effort to pull the people out of the rubble.

Seeing as how Keller is a doctor, she doesn't have the authority to make any decisions regarding military personnel and would have to (out of protocol) defer to the highest ranking officer. Which in this case was Carter.

I didn't see her as frightened or as a little girl following behind anyone. I saw her as a doctor recognizing that her job was to help the people that the military personnel succeeded in pulling out of the rubble. She had no place on the front lines because she doesn't have the skill set of the military personnel. She deferred to Carter when Carter obviously was the one in charge. What's so wrong with that?

No I'm not. I'm saying that Keller lying helpless under a pile of tentacles waiting for the rest of the expedition to save her is no indication to me that TPTB intend to give her character any meaningful growth this season either.

So I'm confused.

Are you saying that she should have struggled harder to free herself from that huge mass of a growing life form that was slowly taking over her mind? Are you holding against the character the fact that she couldn't fight against such a strong foe?

We've seen hive ships. We've seen what all those tentacles turn into and you're saying that Keller should have been able to fight against that?

Or are you merely annoyed at the writers for placing a female in harms way?

For the record, I hate it when Teyla is forced to play damsel in distress too. It's not a favorite plot element of mine.

Nor mine, but I don't hold it against the character.

Are you saying that professional people are emotionless, unsympathetic and only speak in a monotone? Professional people are allowed to have emotions. I would love to see her show some anger or frustration over an inability to help someone. As long as those emotions are under control I see absolutely nothing wrong with letting them show through a bit.
I much preferred Beckett's style. The man showed passion for his work and enthusiasm for new discoveries. He showed sympathy for his patients without falling apart. There's no reason a doctor should be a robot. I find Keller's frozen looks, hesitant speech and flat delivery in doctor mode to be far more unsettling than any small hint of human emotion would be. (Notice I'm not suggesting dramatic outbursts or wild hysteria).

I'm not going to go through all of season 4 to point out all the times Keller hasn't been monotonous or flat or actually showed emotion.

Take a look at Tabula Rasa when she's with McKay and Katie. Or Kindred II and her interactions with Beckett.

Or go as far back as Adrift when she's trying to save Weir's life with McKay.

Hardly emotionless and yet still professional.

Carl Binder hinted at "growth" for Keller. If you want to conclude that means significant growth for Keller, you're certainly within your rights to do so. I merely choice to take a more conservative view. As you said, we've not seen the episode yet. It's a little early for you to conclude that I'm wrong.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm neither claiming I'm right. But I am rather dumbfounded that so many people are finding so many reasons to complain and hate the show, Keller, and everyone involved because of episodes we haven't seen.

[Cautious Explorer]

Seeing as how your perception of her level of maturity is really a matter of personal opinion, I can't say much except that I disagree with your statement that she is immature.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Were we watching the same episode? Because I don't remember seeing too much of the rescue effort period. All we did see was the part where the military led the effort to pull the people out of the rubble.

Seeing as how Keller is a doctor, she doesn't have the authority to make any decisions regarding military personnel and would have to (out of protocol) defer to the highest ranking officer. Which in this case was Carter.

I didn't see her as frightened or as a little girl following behind anyone. I saw her as a doctor recognizing that her job was to help the people that the military personnel succeeded in pulling out of the rubble. She had no place on the front lines because she doesn't have the skill set of the military personnel. She deferred to Carter when Carter obviously was the one in charge. What's so wrong with that?

Again, I'm not suggesting in any way that Keller should have played a role in the initial rescue efforts. But I would have liked to have seen a more forceful attitude once it was established there were survivors to be treated. I expected her to act more in the capacity of an emergency responder than she did. I thought she seemed hesitant and confused. That's how I perceive her. I wish I could see her the way you do. It would make the show far more enjoyable. She's just not measuring up in my eyes.

So I'm confused.

Are you saying that she should have struggled harder to free herself from that huge mass of a growing life form that was slowly taking over her mind? Are you holding against the character the fact that she couldn't fight against such a strong foe?

We've seen hive ships. We've seen what all those tentacles turn into and you're saying that Keller should have been able to fight against that?

Or are you merely annoyed at the writers for placing a female in harms way?

It's a personal issue of mine. I hate it when writers can't seem to think of what to do with a woman other than to have her held captive or trapped and waiting for rescue. I don't mind when it's a strong woman who has a chance to fight back, but a pregnant Teyla tied to Michael's table was all kinds of annoying. Same with Keller feebly laying there calling out "What's happening to me?"

Nor mine, but I don't hold it against the character.

Well, if it starts to become a pattern for that character, I quickly lose intereest.

I'm not going to go through all of season 4 to point out all the times Keller hasn't been monotonous or flat or actually showed emotion.

Take a look at Tabula Rasa when she's with McKay and Katie. Or Kindred II and her interactions with Beckett.

Or go as far back as Adrift when she's trying to save Weir's life with McKay.

Hardly emotionless and yet still professional.

It would be pointless for you to try. I've seen all of season four and wasn't impressed. We see the character differently. To me she comes off as cold and flat.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm neither claiming I'm right. But I am rather dumbfounded that so many people are finding so many reasons to complain and hate the show, Keller, and everyone involved because of episodes we haven't seen.

For me it's born out of frustration. I started out being disappointed with Keller, then annoyed when I saw no improvement. I listened to a chorus of "Give her time, give her a chance, you'll love her". It diidn't pan out. So I'm a little jaded this time around. Sure she'll grow, and I'll love her, and she'll be so sweet with McKay.....on and on and on. Sorry. No. I learned my lesson last season.

Besides, how is that more bewildering than people being certain an episode will be spectacular sight unseen?

[Pandora's_Box]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I can agree to that.

It's a personal issue of mine. I hate it when writers can't seem to think of what to do with a woman other than to have her held captive or trapped and waiting for rescue. I don't mind when it's a strong woman who has a chance to fight back, but a pregnant Teyla tied to Michael's table was all kinds of annoying. Same with Keller feebly laying there calling out "What's happening to me?"

I could go on and on about how much I hated what they did to Teyla last season, but this isn't the thread for it.

What I will say is that it couldn't have been easy for Keller to lie, trapped on that bed with a writhing mass of tentacles growing around her, wrapping ever more tightly around her, while a nefarious voice spoke in her mind, took over her mind slowly but surely all while being almost completely alone. She couldn't see, she was barely conscious of what was happening (at least that's what we were led to believe), and had no way to extricate herself from her situation or fight against the HiveMind taking control.

This isn't to say that I was entirely happy with the manner in which this episode was treated either. The way I figure is that if TPTB aren't going to utilize a character's particular strengths in an episode such as this (in whatever fashion) then it could have been just about anybody lying on that bed in a full body wrap. That's tiresome and pointless, I agree.

But maybe, just maybe, this is laying the groundwork for some more insight into the creation of a Wraith Hive ship. Maybe we'll get a rematch, Keller vs. The Hive part 2 and we'll see her take what she learnt in that first experience and use it to make some grand develpment.

Or maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit. Who knows. Evidently I just have more faith in the character and am more of a mind to like her. I guess there really is no accounting for taste (mine or yours) and I can't fault someone for having different opinions than I.

Well, if it starts to become a pattern for that character, I quickly lose intereest.

Sure, but I'd tend to lose interest in the show in general not just the single character. That sort of pattern is usually indicative of a kind of mentality I'm not very interested in condoning.

It would be pointless for you to try. I've seen all of season four and wasn't impressed. We see the character differently. To me she comes off as cold and flat.
For me it's born out of frustration. I started out being disappointed with Keller, then annoyed when I saw no improvement. I listened to a chorus of "Give her time, give her a chance, you'll love her". It diidn't pan out. So I'm a little jaded this time around. Sure she'll grow, and I'll love her, and she'll be so sweet with McKay.....on and on and on. Sorry. No. I learned my lesson last season.

Mileage varies and as I've pointed out, I can't fault you, or anybody, for that.

Besides, how is that more bewildering than people being certain an episode will be spectacular sight unseen?

It isn't.

I have my concerns about what we've heard so far.

Yes I'm a fervent McKeller shipper and supporter of the show, but I'm not blind nor am I stupid.

The SGA audience, as most sci-fi audiences are, is predominantly male. The casual male viewer tends to look for space battles, explosions, cool aliens, lead male characters that kick butt or spout cool sounding techno-babble, and pretty alien chicks in skimpy clothing. They're not so interested in seeing a tenderly sweet romance between two socially maladjusted geeks with hearts of marshmallow however hot the female might be and however snarky funny the male may be.

So I'm wary, but I'll keep an open mind. Unfortunately, I'm seeing quite a few people reacting as if this signals the coming of the apocalypse.

[PG15]

This male is looking forward to McKeller. Just saying.

[Pandora's_Box]

This male is looking forward to McKeller. Just saying.

Awesome! And I wasn't claiming every male thought that way. But a large portion of them do.

[Kezia]

Awesome! And I wasn't claiming every male thought that way. But a large portion of them do.

This male definitely doesn't, but I respect those that do. To each his own.

I look for well-written character drama and relationships in any show I watch, and unfortunately McKeller just pushes all the wrong buttons for me.

The SGA audience, as most sci-fi audiences are, is predominantly male. The casual male viewer tends to look for space battles, explosions, cool aliens, lead male characters that kick butt or spout cool sounding techno-babble, and pretty alien chicks in skimpy clothing. They're not so interested in seeing a tenderly sweet romance between two socially maladjusted geeks with hearts of marshmallow however hot the female might be and however snarky funny the male may be.

I'm quite almost the polar opposite of your "casual male viewer", though I do appreciate well-done effects and the occasional not-cheesy space battle/explosion/etc... and pretty alien chicks, of course.

[PG15]

Oh, yes, I enjoy those things as well, in addition to McKeller.

[bluealien]

Indentity and the back half of season 5 seem to be a Keller and possibley a McKeller marathon and neither of them appeal to me in any way. I'm still clinging to some hope that it won't be as bad as I imagine and we will get some good team moments in between all the McKeller cringeworthy moments. I have never felt as disallusioned with the show as I do now as it's the team I tune in for. I had no problem with Keller in season four (eventhough she never impressed me) but I could handle her in small doses and being a doctor, but not this over indulgence of one character whom I have no interest in at all. McKay I find enjoyable with the team but on his own or romancing Keller just leaves me cold.

I'm not going to list a whole load of things about why I don't like Keller, it's mainly because she is so totally unconvincing as a CMO and nothing about her so far as endeared me to anything she does...

[ykickamoocow]

People seem to forget that Beckett complained constantly and is probably a much bigger whiner than Keller. Why is Beckett's complaining acceptable while Keller's is not?