"Identity" (518) Pre-Airing Discussion/Speculation Thread

[Laura Dove]

Spoiler:

In the next ep--She tells shep he needs surgery right away (after a building fell on him), lets him run off to go save the galaxy (like no one else is qualified) then when he finally gets to go to surgery she makes a joke about playing with his insides. There was nothing in that entire ep that she did competently.

What if in "Search & Rescue"

Spoiler:

she didn't willingly let Sheppard go but was stunned by Ronon? Or maybe they just ran away from the infirmary when she wasn't looking. The way John reacts to Carter's question seems to imply that Keller never agreed to let him go.

As for the "playing with the insides" joke, I liked it.

[Cautious Explorer]

She's only been in 3 episodes, and one of them was just for exposition (and one of the other ones had her brain influenced by an alien entity from the beginning onwards).

Yes. Three episodes to behave exactly as she did in season 4.

Based on the Carl Binder interview, Tracker might be what you're looking for, in terms of Keller development.

Didn't Binder write Missing? Hardly her finest hour.

I'm looking for a mature, authoritative woman, able to take charge in a crisis. Since they seem to be looking to develop her value as a love interest for Rodney, I don't see that happening.

[PG15]

Eh? What's wrong with that joke? I thought it was hilarious.

Unless you meant she was incompetent because the joke fell flat, in which case the mind boggles.

Anyways, as far as I'm concerned if Shep was as badly injured as Keller said he was, then Keller wasn't the only one to blame. Where was Carter? Rodney? Ronon? Simple words are not going to hold him back, and Sam could've easily called for security to retrain him to stop him from going on the mission. Stun him if you have to. Point is, if Keller was incompetent for letting John go, then the others were equally so. Heck, you can even say that McKay and Ronon were worse as they let Shep, a friend, hurt himself by being stubborn.

The much easier explanation for me is that he was patched up and/or wasn't as badly hurt as Keller said he was.

Yes. Three episodes to behave exactly as she did in season 4.

So the context means nothing then? Of course she'd be the same in S&R, as that's basically the end point of Season 4. In The Seed, as I said, her mind was taken over, and in Broken Ties, she was just acting as a doctor; I don't think you can judge her on the exposition bits that she was given; it would've been the same no matter how authoritative she is.

Didn't Binder write Missing? Hardly her finest hour.

I'm looking for a mature, authoritative woman, able to take charge in a crisis. Since they seem to be looking to develop her value as a love interest for Rodney, I don't see that happening.

I suggest you actually read the interview.

[Cautious Explorer]

So the context means nothing then? Of course she'd be the same in S&R, as that's basically the end point of Season 4. In The Seed, as I said, her mind was taken over, and in Broken Ties, she was just acting as a doctor; I don't think you can judge her on the exposition bits that she was given; it would've been the same no matter how authoritative she is.

We were discussing Keller's growth or lack thereof. So far, three episodes in, and no change. That was my point. She wasn't a take-charge person in S&R, played the victim again in The Seed and spouted more emotionless medical jargon in Broken Ties. Par for the course.

I suggest you actually read the interview.

He thought she was great in Missing. An extremely vague comment on growth for the character as she's once again endangered in the woods. I don't see anything there that suggests a significant change for Keller. What did you see that made you think there would be?

[Naonak]

He thought she was great in Missing. An extremely vague comment on growth for the character as she's once again endangered in the woods. I don't see anything there that suggests a significant change for Keller. What did you see that made you think there would be?

I don't know about PG, but for me:
Carl Binder: ... We saw Keller in "Missing" and now we're going to see Keller in a different way in this episode... we're going to see a growth from where she's been a year ago to where she is now.
Eh, maybe it's just me...


And, you know, Sheppard has been kidnapped in the woods at least three times that I can think of...

[PG15]

We were discussing Keller's growth or lack thereof. So far, three episodes in, and no change. That was my point. She wasn't a take-charge person in S&R, played the victim again in The Seed and spouted more emotionless medical jargon in Broken Ties. Par for the course.

Ok wait...I think we're on 2 different wave lengths here. Are you talking about how the writers are treating the character, as in an "out of universe" view?

Because I'm treating it as "in universe" and seeing mitigating circumstances "preventing" character growth.

Regardless, 3 episodes is hardly comparable to the 16 episodes still down the line. If there's still no change by, say, 3/4 of the season, then yeah, that'd be unfortunate, but for now there's still plenty of time.

He thought she was great in Missing. An extremely vague comment on growth for the character as she's once again endangered in the woods. I don't see anything there that suggests a significant change for Keller. What did you see that made you think there would be?

The "extremely vague comment", actually. I mean, if the writer says that he's written the character differently from the newbie scardy cat from Missing because of character growth, then I don't see why there wouldn't be character growth, or at least a change. But if you're looking for a complete 180 in the character you're not going to find it, and I'm thankful for that.

[Cautious Explorer]

Ok wait...I think we're on 2 different wave lengths here. Are you talking about how the writers are treating the character, as in an "out of universe" view?

Because I'm treating it as "in universe" and seeing mitigating circumstances "preventing" character growth.

Regardless, 3 episodes is hardly comparable to the 16 episodes still down the line. If there's still no change by, say, 3/4 of the season, then yeah, that'd be unfortunate, but for now there's still plenty of time.

Well, "out of universe" she can hardly have character growth if TPTB aren't interested. From the looks of all of season four and the first few episodes of season five, they aren't.

"in universe" I would say that serving as CMO of Atlantis for a year, confronting strange cases, getting to know the people better, would lend a certain confidence and authority to a person. Apparently not in Keller's case. Still the same quivery voice and insecurity on the rescue mission (S&R), still no strength in doctor patient relations. Nothing new after a year. And after everything she went through in The Seed, she's all chirpy smiles as she reassures everyone that Ronon will be right back to normal after Broken Ties. Guess she's never heard of psychological consequences, or it just doesn't register. She's just not selling it with her so-called professional demeanor.

The "extremely vague comment", actually. I mean, if the writer says that he's written the character differently from the newbie scardy cat from Missing because of character growth, then I don't see why there wouldn't be character growth, or at least a change. But if you're looking for a complete 180 in the character you're not going to find it, and I'm thankful for that.

Yes the vague comment is what I'm referring to. Change could mean anything -- new highlights in her hair, a new infatuation with McKay. Such a vague comment is meaningless.

Sadly, no, I don't expect a complete change. As that's pretty much what it would take to convince me that Keller is a mature and responsible physician qualified to be in charge of medicine in Atlants, I don't anticipate any real change in my opinion of her.

[PG15]

And after everything she went through in The Seed, she's all chirpy smiles as she reassures everyone that Ronon will be right back to normal after Broken Ties. Guess she's never heard of psychological consequences, or it just doesn't register.

It never has in Stargate, so why start criticizing Keller for it when no other doc has ever mentioned it?

Yes the vague comment is what I'm referring to. Change could mean anything -- new highlights in her hair, a new infatuation with McKay. Such a vague comment is meaningless.

Oh come on, that's going overboard. From the context of the interview (i.e. refering back to Missing), it's obvious that she will act differently with regards to being alone and in danger, and that she'll be stronger.

[Cautious Explorer]

It never has in Stargate, so why start criticizing Keller for it when no other doc has ever mentioned it?

I honestly believe Carson would have stated it differently. With more somberness. You can convey meaning without words. Carson often had an air of concern. What I get most often from Keller is indifference or perkiness.

Oh come on, that's going overboard. From the context of the interview (i.e. refering back to Missing), it's obvious that she will act differently with regards to being alone and in danger, and that she'll be stronger.

It's not obvious at all. Everything depends on Carl Binder's version of "growth".

[PG15]

I honestly believe Carson would have stated it differently. With more somberness. You can convey meaning without words. Carson often had an air of concern. What I get most often from Keller is indifference or perkiness.

Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. Carson's interpretation, whatever it may be, could be more sombre, but at the same time I don't see the problem with Keller putting up a "perky" front to cheer up Ronon's buddies that he'll be alright.

It's not obvious at all. Everything depends on Carl Binder's version of "growth".

True, but I have a feeling it's not new highlights.

[bluealien]

I don't know about PG, but for me:
Carl Binder: ... We saw Keller in "Missing" and now we're going to see Keller in a different way in this episode... we're going to see a growth from where she's been a year ago to where she is now.
Eh, maybe it's just me...


And, you know, Sheppard has been kidnapped in the woods at least three times that I can think of...

The problem is I really don't care anymore what they do to her... I'm sure she will suddenly be adapt at fighting and shooting a gun and maybe even saving the day .. but I really couldn't care less.. because I have zero interest in the character at the moment..

[maxbo]

The problem is I really don't care anymore what they do to her... I'm sure she will suddenly be adapt at fighting and shooting a gun and maybe even saving the day .. but I really couldn't care less.. because I have zero interest in the character at the moment..

That sums up the way I feel about Keller - I don't love her and I don't hate her, I'm just not interested in her. And, I agree that by the end of this season she'll probably have acquired such amazing shooting and fighting skills that she'll be a combination of Kung Fu Keller and Annie Oakley Keller. All the while remaining wide-eyed and needy.

I really hope TPTB prove me wrong.

[Mitchell82]

New info for "Identity"

http://www.gateworld.net/news/2008/0...ty_crisi.shtml

I'll have to agree with those that say this is similar to eps we've had before, like Machello, Duet and The Long Goodbye but those were great eps and Machello gave Michael a chance to show his abilities as The Long Goodbye did with Joe and Torri. The same could happen here with Jewel. This actuallly sounds interesting.

[bluealien]

That sums up the way I feel about Keller - I don't love her and I don't hate her, I'm just not interested in her. And, I agree that by the end of this season she'll probably have acquired such amazing shooting and fighting skills that she'll be a combination of Kung Fu Keller and Annie Oakley Keller. All the while remaining wide-eyed and needy.

I really hope TPTB prove me wrong.

[Mitchell82]

Sounds to me like JM will updating his resume soon after he writes SGA into the ground.

His reasoning and theory behind how to make keller more likable is biased and ignorant. Instead of sitting back and looking at what the problem is...the character's immaturity level, her position as CMO for that maturity level and the way the character is portrayed as the "kid" doctor that everyone adores just makes many viewers cringe.

That's a double edged sword dear. What you see as an ignorant character and horrible writing others disagree. He obviously can't please everyone but stop assuming that your opinion is the correct one. From my perspective and obviously tptb he is doing fine.

The issues he needs to address will not be accomplished by force feeding the character into more eps. He only needs ONE single ep to correct keller and he doesn't even have to kill her off or have her the damsel in distress.

She just needs an ep where she GROW UP! She needs to mature, to take responsibility and ACT like a CMO. To admit her mistakes, learn from them and go on.

If he drops the Doogie Houser act and let's Keller grow up, act like an adult and confide in those around her instead of taking pot shots at Zelenka...I would respect her more.

I must be seeing a different show because that's not what I've seen. Keller is as far from a damsel in distress as you can get. She has more than shown her ability as a CMO and does admit her mistakes. She has shown her ability in Adrift, Doppleganger, Tabula Rasa, Missing, The Seer, Quarantine, Kindred 1 and 2 The Last Man, Search and Rescue and Broken Ties. She has grown as a character and person ep by ep.