Sheppard - Does He Save The Day Too Often?

[jelgate]

I don't think he saves the day too often just by looking at the lists. However, I think a reason this is coming up is because he saved the day in the 1st two episode of S5.

[Pegasus_SGA]

John is not the only character (though the only one in he main cast) who has the gene naturally. And then Carson came up with the gene therapy and now [b]tons[b] of people have the gene. No, John is not the only one who can effortlessly operate Ancient tech. He's just gets to show it off a lot.

Even Rodney can fly a jumper while wounded now.

Hello FAII It's been a long time since we chatted, and look we're doing well, we've started off agreeing. Always a good sign.

John gets to do the heroics... all the time, despite Ronon existing. If there's a fight to be fought, John gets to do the coolest stunts, kill the biggest baddies , etc., etc. (with a few exceptions).

Whenever he's not saving the day, he's contributing to it through heroics. Meanwhile, Teyla and Ronon almost never do this. Rodney does it to a lesser extent.

I think we've found not all the time. Ronon doesn't get to do the stunts? Or Teyla? Reunion or Missing ringing any bells? And seriously can you see McKay doing stunts. I'll give you The Lost boys.

Because he's pretty much the only one to consistently get such streaks. Rodney, sometimes. But John's the one who consistently get "saving streaks" and who gets to save the day the most... and it's almost exclusively through heroics of a physical kind.

Given that Sheppard is the leader, he'll ALWAYS be first on the scene, but he wouldn't be able to do it... well he would, because he's heroic like that, but, only twice has he been really without the team; Travellers, CG and now the seed. So wouldn't you say that the majority is a group effort?

Our opinions differ here. Also, he often gets to do the biggest saves. Yes, Rodney often saves the city, but he's got Radek there helping him. John mostly kills the Big Bads himself, even when aided, the others are just there to help him get to the Big Bad.

And then there's the magnitude of the saves. John has saved "tons of people" more than Rodney, who often just saves "a few".

What are you quantifying as 'the biggest saves' do you mean the city? The galaxy? Because I certainly recall Mckay saying quite a bit that it's normally the scientists that turn the tide of war, not the military.

Only, that's only happened, what, twice? Even in "Search & Rescue", he, while wounded (thus breaking all kinds of military protocol) just had to shoehorn himself in and limp his way through the Cruiser to save Teyla (not that John actually did much at the end of S&R more than limping and trying to set the explosives).

Which Military protocols would that be FAII?

Please, 'limp' has such negative connotations. Heroic staggering if you please.

Oh I agree. I really thought it was dreadful when I heard that TPTB had decided not to pursue Shep's gene. I thought there were a few good stories there! I so wanted there to be one where he lost the use of it! Sorry, it's the whumper in me

I was gutted, I honestly thought they'd want to explore it, as that's the whole reason Sheppard was chosen for the mission... I digress though.

I'd agree here too. I want the team! Waaaaaaah! I do like the team feel, and Ronon and Teyla have lots to contribute, I think.

So far so good.

Well, ok, you got me there. He's heroic, physically active AND smart! Coulda been mensa, right? And stop making me swoon! But, yep, I can see your point and you're right here.

Need some bubble wrap there do you Linz?

Now this is getting ridiculous! Because I'm agreeing here too. I WANT Ronon or/and Teyla to save Sheppard. I really do. Let them save him. Let anyone save him for goodness sakes!

I would be most content if they all saved Sheppy's ass from this point forward, and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Shep on the other hand might have a crisis of confidence. Ah well i'm sure he'd get over it.

Well the timing of the two episodes was a bit strange here, I'm not disagreeing with you. If The Seed had appeared later on in the season, I don't think Shep saving the day would have been so noticable here?

Agreed, but then Ronon also tried to save the day in both eps.

I like it. I have no idea why. But I like Shep not being good at everything and being outshone by them. I know, I know, it's weird of me

Ok, so you're weird right alongside me then!

I like that everyone gets the chance to shine, and people aren't perfect and i'd like to see that lots more with people making mistakes and things going tits up more often than not, it makes for interesting viewing.

Well, I KNOW you're weird!


Actually this is a great post, I know, when aren't your posts great?

You had to bring up heroic staggering, didn't you? But you do have a point!

I'm not weird, i'm just specail.

I'll pay you later.

[Linzi]

I don't think he saves the day too often just by looking at the lists. However, I think a reason this is coming up is because he saved the day in the 1st two episode of S5.

I agree, Jel. It's not an issue for me personally, and I didn't even think about it when watching, sorry

Peg you had to mention 'limp' and heroic staggering, didn't you?

[PG15]

It's just what Shep does. He even said so himself.

To say Shep self-sacrifices too much is the same as saying that McKay snarks too much, Ronon's impulsive too much, and Teyla cares too much, or something. It's their personalities.

[Linda06]

Well.

Tabula Rasa definately wasn't shep, because he was whumped. *tries not to squee until she's in the appropriate thread*

I think McKay contributed, but didn't save the day. Ronon brought the weed back. McKay wouldn't have finished the programme without Teyla telling him what he needed to do and distracting the guards so he could try and finish it. Zelenka freeing people and making a run for it. So group effort there.

Missing was definately Teyla and to some degree Keller. Sure the boys showed up with firepower, but save the day? Nope, just because they came at the last few minutes with firepower doesn't mean they 'saved' the girls.

SoW This was Teyla, she caught the queen off guard, and got in her mind. The boys were trapped in the cell and with the queen about to be wraithified. If Teyla hadn't stepped up, they'd have been wraith fodder. So sorry I disagree with you on this.

Tabula rasa...Teyla got captured..again....Rodney,Zelenka (i think) and Carter had to rescue her...All she had to do was tell Rodney to push enter so to speak....He done most of the work already!

Missing....Nabel helped Teyla and Keller escape then they got surrounded by the bolo kai and the boys come in all guns blazing to rescue them..

SOW...Teyla took control of the queen to let the boys escape but then John had to help Teyla by shooting the queen and the boys got off the ship themselves..

Sorry.....Don't take it the wrong way.....I'm just in a very crappy mood and when i'm like this everything bothers me!

I'll update my list trying to put in other people's opinions. Trying to bold anytime someone saved the day doing something daring or sacrificed themselves/put themselves at risk for the greater good. (And not just to save their own butt.)

Spoiler:

Rising -- Sheppard
Hide and Seek -- McKay
38 Minutes -- McKay, Ford
Suspicion -- McKay, Sheppard
Childhood's End -- McKay, Sheppard, and Ford
Poisoning the Well -- No one.
Underground -- No one.
Home -- No one.
The Storm/The Eye -- Sheppard
The Defiant One -- Sheppard, McKay, and Ford
Hot Zone -- Sheppard, McKay
Sanctuary -- No one
Before I Sleep -- Weir
The Brotherhood -- Sheppard, Ford, and Teyla.
Letters from Pegasus -- No one.
The Gift -- Teyla.
The Siege Pt 1 -- Dr. Grodin, Team
The Siege Pt 2 -- SGC, Sheppard

The Siege: Part 3 -- Sheppard, Caldwell, McKay, Teyla.
The Intruder -- Sheppard, McKay
Runner -- Ronon.
Duet -- Zelenka
Condemned -- McKay
Trinity -- Sheppard
Instinct -- Ronon
Conversion -- Ronon, Sheppard
Aurora -- Sheppard, some McKay
The Lost Boys/The Hive -- Sheppard, McKay
Epiphany -- Sheppard, Team (the team tried)
Critical Mass -- Sheppard
Grace Under Pressure -- Sheppard, Zelenka
The Tower -- Sheppard
The Long Goodbye -- mostly Teyla, a little Sheppard, McKay
Coup D'etat -- Carson
Michael -- Sheppard, Ronon?
Inferno -- McKay
Allies -- ?

No Man's Land -- Sheppard, Ronon
Misbegotten -- Team
Irresistible -- Sheppard
Sateda -- Ronon, Team
Progeny -- McKay
The Real World -- Weir, Sheppard
Common Ground -- Sheppard, Todd, team
McKay and Mrs. Miller -- McKay, Jeanie, Rod, Zelenka
Phantoms -- Teyla, McKay
The Return: Parts 1&2 -- Team
Echoes -- Sheppard, McKay
Irresponsible -- Sheppard
Tao of Rodney -- McKay
The Game -- No One
The Ark -- Sheppard
Sunday -- Carson
Submersion -- Sheppard, Teyla
Vengeance -- Team
First Strike -- McKay, Caldwell

Adrift -- Everybody
Lifeline -- Weir, Team
Reunion -- Ronon, Lorne's Team
Doppelganger -- McKay, Sheppard
Travelers -- Larrin, Sheppard
Tabula Rasa -- McKay, Ronon, Teyla
Missing -- Teyla
The Seer -- Carter
Miller's Crossing -- Sheppard, McKay, Todd
This Mortal Coil -- Clone Team
Be All My Sins Remember'd -- Everybody but Ronon and Teyla
Spoils of War -- Team
Quarantine -- Zelenka, Sheppard
Harmony -- Sheppard, McKay
Outcast -- Sheppard, Ronon
Trio -- Carter, Keller, McKay
Midway -- Ronon, T'ealc, Sheppard
The Kindred: Part 1 ?
The Kindred: Part 2 ?
The Last Man -- McKay (not daring, but he devoted his life to the cause), Sheppard, and everybody in the alternate timeline

See that's my point exactly...I see Shep and McKays name pop up alot and Teyla very rarely

[Pegasus_SGA]

It's just what Shep does. He even said so himself.

To say Shep self-sacrifices too much is the same as saying that McKay snarks too much, Ronon's impulsive too much, and Teyla cares too much, or something. It's their personalities.

What? Goes limp and staggers heroically?

*runs and hides*

[Pegasus_SGA]

It's just what Shep does. He even said so himself.

To say Shep self-sacrifices too much is the same as saying that McKay snarks too much, Ronon's impulsive too much, and Teyla cares too much, or something. It's their personalities.

What? Goes limp and staggers heroically?

Shame on you PG15 insulting Shep's manhood like that.

*runs and hides*

[PG15]

Yeah, that's the one.

[miniglik]

See that's my point exactly...I see Shep and McKays name pop up alot and Teyla very rarely

Yeah, it's definitely Sheppard and McKay's galaxy to save (with a side of Ronon).

And, no this is not the show I would watch if I wanted to see interesting women save the day. Luckily, I'm not that attached to Teyla, nor have I been to any of the women in this show, or I 'd be as frustrated as you, Linda.

[Linda06]

Yeah, it's definitely Sheppard and McKay's galaxy to save (with a side of Ronon).

And, no this is not the show I would watch if I wanted to see interesting women save the day. Luckily, I'm not that attached to Teyla, nor have I been to any of the women in this show, or I 'd be as frustrated as you, Linda.

Yup.....I bet you're glad about that

It gets very frustrating at times......I've got a really sore head banging it on the desk alot

[jelgate]

I know its too eary to tell but if the first two episodes are any indication then the show is getting more well-rounded in terms of balancing the team.

[FallenAngelII]

John is aided by the soldiers under him (Ronon, Teyla, and occasionally Lorne).

John is aided in combat. His soldiers (and Ronon) take out the flunkies. But the majority of the time, it's John who, on his own, kills the Big Bad. As in it's his weapon that kills him or hand-to-hand or whatever. No one helps him take down the Big Bad, it's him and the Big Bad.

In other words, his soldiers are flunkies taking down other flunkies.

Rodney is aided by the scientists he works with (Zalenka). Both John and Rodney are usually the one that gets the big heroics in their specialties and they are both frequently aided by their subordinates.

When was the last time John got his life saved by a subordinate? Radek often helps Rodney on crucial things, pointing out things that are cruicial to the solving of problems. Lorne just shoots things and helps John make his way to the Big Bad.

Both Sheppard and McKay tend to be the heroes of the stories, IMO.

John just gets to do it more, which is the problem. Yes, if we toned down John's heroics, we'd have to tone down Rodney's, too, if Rodney would vastly overshadow John. But Teyla and Ronon definitely need more Saves the Day episodes.

Rodney's plan is what destroyed ALL of the replicators. All John did was shoot drones. Sure, it was a team effort -- but McKay's input was the only truly invaluable part of the team.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of that we were discussing "Be All My Sins Remember'd" all of a sudden. I was speaking in general terms without specifying specific episodes. You named one episode where Rodney saved tons of people. Want me to name 5 where John does the same? It's really easy.

I keep hearing about how he was breaking all kinds of military protocol, but my husband (who was military) thought it was perfectly acceptable. Granted, the hubby is good with the suspension of disbelief, so it could just be that, but I'm curious where people are getting this.

He was wounded... and limping. He wasn't in any shape or form fit for duty and even less so to command the rescue mission. I'm a civilian and even I know this is against military protocol (in fact, John himself said that it's grounds enough for a court martial since he defied Sam's (protocol-based) orders).

Also, I think Ronon gets just as many physical stunts.

Stunts =/= Heroics. John's stunts save oodles. Ronon's helps John do it or save a few people.

The thing he doesn't get is the flyboy heroics. That's the problem with "Atlantis is in danger" eps. Ronon can't fly anything and isn't a scientist, so there's really nothing for him to do most of the time.

He could, you know, be the one to take out the bad guy. The Big bad. Instead of just flunkies.

Others have the gene naturally, sure. I've already discussed that O'Neill had it, so I hardly thought nobody else had it. Carson does/did, Lorne does to name a few.

You said it's logical John's the one to "fly things of Ancient design". I'm assuming that you by this mean warships and Puddle Jumpers. We've never seen anyone else fly a warship but even Larrin's people can do it, so it's not like it's impossible for others to do it.

PJs? It's not like it's hard. They interface with the mind and then you just do it. You just have to learn how to do it properly. Rodney can do it injured and his gene isn't even natural.

And most of the time, John's flying PJs. And others can do it too.

However ALL had to be trained to use it to control Ancient tech, even O'Neill struggled initially, whereas Sheppard didn't. He was a natural. Hence he flies the various ancient toys around etc.

Again, John's flied a warship on two occasions. The rest of the time, it's PJs... which aren't hard to pilot.

There is no evidence anyone else can operate Ancient tech as well as Sheppard can - they can be trained, sure, but are they as naturally able?

Besides, when did people whine about him flying PJs too much, anyway? We don't like that he's always the one to save the day, be it through flying a PJ somewhere, shooting something, killing something or whatever. He gets to do it exponentially much more than the rest of his team, despite this being an ensemble show.

I've never seen any evidence anyone else is as good as Sheppard. If there was, in Lifeline

Spoiler:

Why was it Shep flew the city and nobody else? For example.

He's flied the city once. Once. And no one complained that he "flies the cities too often". We're complaining that he gets to save the day too much. Of course, when it's something only he can do or he's the best suited for, it's a no-brainer.

But why is it that even with something as "easy" as "point P90 and shoot", it's almost always John who shoots the Big Bad?

<snip>

Thus my point is, nobody is as good as Shep, hence he's needed for his gene in situations which often involved saving the day... Siege I, Lifeline, Adrift, to name a few.

See above and what about the oodles of time where his gene has nothing to do with it?

I totally disagree with you there. Ronon does all the cool hand to hand combat fights, with Teyla alongside him.

Fine, Ronon does the coolest stunts. Meanwhile, John kills the Big Bads. It's not really that important if your cool stunts only kills meaningless red-shirt flunkies.

Sheppard isn't much of a fighter at all - except maybe for Doppelganger. He usually just shoots things.

Figting = Combat
Shooting = Combat

For example, Ronon's fighting prowess is seen in Runner, Condemned, Sateda, Reunion, Midway, to name a few. Teyla is also a brilliant hand to hand combat fighter.

Fighting =/= Saving the day.

Sheppard really isn't that good. He also doesn't get to do all the coolest stunts.

I'll concede to this.

Ronon gets to do some great one's IMO. I'd also disagree about killing the biggest baddies. The biggest one I've seen in the wraith in Sateda, and Beckett dispatched him with a drone.

The biggest baddies in the given situation. Also, "baddies" is plural.

I agree Ronon and Teyla don't often get to do the most heroic things per se, certainly in terms of saving the day, and that's a shame.

This is the point of the whole thread.

But I'd disagree Rodney doesn't save the day a lot. He does. It's just in a different way.

I'm sorry, I said this when? I said he gets to do it noticeably less than John.

He's always saying how he saves the day in the most impossible situations and how working under that pressure only makes him better. (Inferno is a great example of that).

Still, John gets the quantity and the quality, most of the time.

I do think Ronon and Teyla are physically heroes too.

Yes, they get to kill unnamed and unimportant flunky baddies.

And yes, Sheppard's heriocs are usually physical for two reasons. Firstly he's the action, military hero and lead man on the show, secondly, if he were to suddenly be the brainy hero, where would that leave McKay?

How about balancing it out by having John do it occasionally? It's not like the physical heroes aren't already too numerous, what with Ronon, Teyla and John fitting into that class. Having John go cerebral once every 5 episodes would let Ronon and Teyla take the physical spotlight for once.

And what's up with not at all addressing my point that John's the only person who gets to consistently save the day twice or thrice in a row (episode-wise)? The others get a few here and there with Rodney doing prett well but far from consistent combos.

It's like you're making up what I'm saying in your head.

Well, yes. I'd agee with the fact that Rodney doesn't take down the bad guys with bullets etc.

I'm sorry, I talked about this when?

I'm not sure I agree with you there. How often has Rodney come up with the solution to save the city? More than Sheppard has, surely?

How often has John's heroics not saved the city, entire planets, Earth or the galaxy? I think John's accomplishments beats Rodney's.

Thus surely the fact that he didn't get away with it in the first two episodes of season 5 is a step forward? Shep the hero needs rescuing because he's hurt and can't save himself so he has to have help from somebody else, even if he's already saved the day, or will turn out to in the end.

Only it's not really that bad because it's gone by the next episode. And he still gets to be a hero, even while wounded (both "Search & Rescue" and "The Seed"!)!

It's just what Shep does. He even said so himself.

To say Shep self-sacrifices too much is the same as saying that McKay snarks too much, Ronon's impulsive too much, and Teyla cares too much, or something. It's their personalities.

We're talking about saving the day here, now self-sacrificing.

[Linda06]

I know its too eary to tell but if the first two episodes are any indication then the show is getting more well-rounded in terms of balancing the team.

Sure...If you call Shep saving the day twice and getting severely injured twice then yes i agree

[miniglik]

FallenAngelII, the size of your post is making me not want to cut and paste, for fear of continuing point-for-point shenanigans, however two things:

1) Who are all these big bads you are talking about Sheppard killing? Kolya, sure. As far as I know the rest of the Big Bads are still alive. Except the replicators, who McKay took out.

2) John's courtmartial comments was, in my opinion, implied to take effect if Carter ordered him not to go. Like "you can order me not to go, but even the threat of court martial wouldn't keep me from it." She did not, however, order him not to go, so the point was mute. His actions, without a direct counter order from his commanding officer, would not be subjected to a court martial.

[miniglik]

Sure...If you call Shep saving the day twice and getting severely injured twice then yes i agree

I agree with jelgate. Particularly this last episode: everyone contributed. I liked that. No one was just standing there, with nothing to do.