Sheppard - Does He Save The Day Too Often?

[Mitchell82]

I have no problem with the other team members saving the day but I'm not tired of Shep saving the day at all

Well put I agree.

[thekillman]

problem is. teyla is wanted by michael. or better, her baby. but she. dammit. shes left too much in the background. and for variety sake, have the entire team trapped somewhere in a deep, dark, forest in a wraith facility, and have ronon save everyone. and radek locates the thing. because teal'c was a oneman army. i miss that in ronon. he has shown to be a great warrior. now please, let him proove that. let HIM do the rescue, and have teyla use her wraith DNA to track any and all wraith nearby, so they can get outsafe

[Linzi]

John is not the only character (though the only one in he main cast) who has the gene naturally. And then Carson came up with the gene therapy and now [B]tons[B] of people have the gene. No, John is not the only one who can effortlessly operate Ancient tech. He's just gets to show it off a lot.

Even Rodney can fly a jumper while wounded now.

Others have the gene naturally, sure. I've already discussed that O'Neill had it, so I hardly thought nobody else had it. Carson does/did, Lorne does to name a few. However ALL had to be trained to use it to control Ancient tech, even O'Neill struggled initially, whereas Sheppard didn't. He was a natural. Hence he flies the various ancient toys around etc. There is no evidence anyone else can operate Ancient tech as well as Sheppard can - they can be trained, sure, but are they as naturally able? I've never seen any evidence anyone else is as good as Sheppard. If there was, in Lifeline

Spoiler:

Why was it Shep flew the city and nobody else? For example.

Why in The Seer,

Spoiler:

did Carter dispatch Sheppard to the control chair?

Why in Siege II was McKay reluctantly using Beckett because he said Sheppard wasn't available? Thus, sorry there has been no canonic evidence that anyone is equal to Sheppard in the strength of his gene. Even if it is just that he is able to use it easily and naturally, without training. Also, if we look at the Tower, Rodney's gene was ignored in favour of Sheppard's mega gene, which lit up the device the bald guy's....what was his name again ?.... gene detector like an Xmas tree?

Thus my point is, nobody is as good as Shep, hence he's needed for his gene in situations which often involved saving the day... Siege I, Lifeline, Adrift, to name a few.

John gets to do the heroics... all the time, despite Ronon existing. If there's a fight to be fought, John gets to do the coolest stunts, kill the biggest baddies , etc., etc. (with a few exceptions).

I totally disagree with you there. Ronon does all the cool hand to hand combat fights, with Teyla alongside him. Sheppard isn't much of a fighter at all - except maybe for Doppelganger. He usually just shoots things. For example, Ronon's fighting prowess is seen in Runner, Condemned, Sateda, Reunion, Midway, to name a few. Teyla is also a brilliant hand to hand combat fighter. Sheppard really isn't that good. He also doesn't get to do all the coolest stunts. Ronon gets to do some great one's IMO. I'd also disagree about killing the biggest baddies. The biggest one I've seen in the wraith in Sateda, and Beckett dispatched him with a drone.

Whenever he's not saving the day, he's contributing to it through heroics. Meanwhile, Teyla and Ronon almost never do this. Rodney does it to a lesser extent.

I agree Ronon and Teyla don't often get to do the most heroic things per se, certainly in terms of saving the day, and that's a shame. But I'd disagree Rodney doesn't save the day a lot. He does. It's just in a different way. He's always saying how he saves the day in the most impossible situations and how working under that pressure only makes him better. (Inferno is a great example of that).

Because he's pretty much the only one to consistently get such streaks. Rodney, sometimes. But John's the one who consistently get "saving streaks" and who gets to save the day the most... and it's almost exclusively through heroics of a physical kind.

Well I'd agree Sheppard is more of a physical than cerebral hero than Rodney, I do think Ronon and Teyla are physically heroes too. And yes, Sheppard's heriocs are usually physical for two reasons. Firstly he's the action, military hero and lead man on the show, secondly, if he were to suddenly be the brainy hero, where would that leave McKay?

Our opinions differ here. Also, he often gets to do the biggest saves. Yes, Rodney often saves the city, but he's got Radek there helping him. John mostly kills the Big Bads himself, even when aided, the others are just there to help him get to the Big Bad.

Well, yes. I'd agee with the fact that Rodney doesn't take down the bad guys with bullets etc. That's not his role, nor would I want it to be either. Rodney isn't the action hero, he's the genius hero, coming up with the scientific solutions, and often saving the entire city with his brain. It's no good have physical heroes if you haven't got the technical brains there saving the day in their own way too.

And then there's the magnitude of the saves. John has saved "tons of people" more than Rodney, who often just saves "a few".

I'm not sure I agree with you there. How often has Rodney come up with the solution to save the city? More than Sheppard has, surely?

Only, that's only happened, what, twice? Even in "Search & Rescue", he, while wounded (thus breaking all kinds of military protocol) just had to shoehorn himself in and limp his way through the Cruiser to save Teyla (not that John actually did much at the end of S&R more than limping and trying to set the explosives).

Well I'm not going to disagree with you here. I've often felt it's unrealistic that Sheppard gets away unscathed so much, The Ark is a prime example of that, as is Vengeance too. Thus surely the fact that he didn't get away with it in the first two episodes of season 5 is a step forward? Shep the hero needs rescuing because he's hurt and can't save himself so he has to have help from somebody else, even if he's already saved the day, or will turn out to in the end.

[Cautious Explorer]

Others have the gene naturally, sure. I've already discussed that O'Neill had it, so I hardly thought nobody else had it. Carson does/did, Lorne does to name a few. However ALL had to be trained to use it to control Ancient tech, even O'Neill struggled initially, whereas Sheppard didn't. He was a natural. Hence he flies the various ancient toys around etc. There is no evidence anyone else can operate Ancient tech as well as Sheppard can - they can be trained, sure, but are they as naturally able? I've never seen any evidence anyone else is as good as Sheppard. If there was, in Lifeline

Spoiler:

Why was it Shep flew the city and nobody else? For example.

Why in The Seer,

Spoiler:

did Carter dispatch Sheppard to the control chair?

Why in Siege II was McKay reluctantly using Beckett because he said Sheppard wasn't available? Thus, sorry there has been no canonic evidence that anyone is equal to Sheppard in the strength of his gene. Even if it is just that he is able to use it easily and naturally, without training. Also, if we look at the Tower, Rodney's gene was ignored in favour of Sheppard's mega gene, which lit up the device the bald guy's....what was his name again ?.... gene detector like an Xmas tree?

Thus my point is, nobody is as good as Shep, hence he's needed for his gene in situations which often involved saving the day... Siege I, Lifeline, Adrift, to name a few.

ITA. Oh, yeah, I agree about the gene too.
I wish TPTB hadn't decided to drop the whole strongest gene thing. I think it could make for some really interesting storylines.

I totally disagree with you there. Ronon does all the cool hand to hand combat fights, with Teyla alongside him. Sheppard isn't much of a fighter at all - except maybe for Doppelganger. He usually just shoots things. For example, Ronon's fighting prowess is seen in Runner, Condemned, Sateda, Reunion, Midway, to name a few. Teyla is also a brilliant hand to hand combat fighter. Sheppard really isn't that good. He also doesn't get to do all the coolest stunts. Ronon gets to do some great one's IMO. I'd also disagree about killing the biggest baddies. The biggest one I've seen in the wraith in Sateda, and Beckett dispatched him with a drone.

I'm hoping that with Teyla's pregnancy over, the team will go on more missions and both Ronon and Teyla will get to have a bigger part in saving the day. When they're all confined to Atlantis or the Daedalus, there's not a lot for Teyla and Ronon to do. That also contributes to the impression that it's always Sheppard saving the day.

I agree Ronon and Teyla don't often get to do the most heroic things per se, certainly in terms of saving the day, and that's a shame. But I'd disagree Rodney doesn't save the day a lot. He does. It's just in a different way. He's always saying how he saves the day in the most impossible situations and how working under that pressure only makes him better. (Inferno is a great example of that).



Well I'd agree Sheppard is more of a physical than cerebral hero than Rodney, I do think Ronon and Teyla are physically heroes too. And yes, Sheppard's heriocs are usually physical for two reasons. Firstly he's the action, military hero and lead man on the show, secondly, if he were to suddenly be the brainy hero, where would that leave McKay?

I'm going to slightly disagree. Sheppard is as much a cerebral hero as physical. I love to see him using strategy to win the day (The Storm/The Eye). It makes him more than just another action hero.

Well, yes. I'd agee with the fact that Rodney doesn't take down the bad guys with bullets etc. That's not his role, nor would I want it to be either. Rodney isn't the action hero, he's the genius hero, coming up with the scientific solutions, and often saving the entire city with his brain. It's no good have physical heroes if you haven't got the technical brains there saving the day in their own way too.



I'm not sure I agree with you there. How often has Rodney come up with the solution to save the city? More than Sheppard has, surely?


Well I'm not going to disagree with you here. I've often felt it's unrealistic that Sheppard gets away unscathed so much, The Ark is a prime example of that, as is Vengeance too. Thus surely the fact that he didn't get away with it in the first two episodes of season 5 is a step forward? Shep the hero needs rescuing because he's hurt and can't save himself so he has to have help from somebody else, even if he's already saved the day, or will turn out to in the end.

I so want to see an episode where Sheppard needs the team to save him. More specifically Ronon and/or Teyla. McKay has had plenty of opportunities to save the day. I was hoping for that in S&R, but the Daedalus showed up for a last minute beam-out.

It's not that I dislike seeing Sheppard play the hero, it's just that for me it's become too predictable how he will do it and how easy it will be. I'd rather see the team in a tight spot and relying on Sheppard's ingenuity, maybe some evasive flying of the puddlejumper, outsmarting the bad guys, rather than being a human bomb in the puddlejumper or popping back from what appear to be serious injuries virtually unscathed.

Mostly I think I'm just bothered by the similarity between S&R and The Seed. It makes Sheppard's extreme heroics far more noticeable when aired so close together. As I said before, I think the grand heroics should be reserved for rare occurances. Otherwise it becomes nothing out of the ordinary.

[txTart]

I'm fine with Sheppard saving the day. He's the military commander - he's in more of a position to save the day than anyone else. Though I do enjoy the occasional episodes when the others have to (at least try) and save him.

[KindlyKeller]

Just to touch on something Linzi said...

While Sheppard more often than not is the one to save the day, he's constantly getting embarrassed physically by Ronon and Teyla, which has always annoyed me. I guess they try to balance out his day-saving antics by making him look foolish in hand-to-hand situations.

[miniglik]

Just to touch on something Linzi said...

While Sheppard more often than not is the one to save the day, he's constantly getting embarrassed physically by Ronon and Teyla, which has always annoyed me. I guess they try to balance out his day-saving antics by making him look foolish in hand-to-hand situations.

Now I actually love that. Anytime they make Sheppard less perfect I like it.

[Pegasus_SGA]

Does Shep save the day too much? Let's look at this objectively, then i'll decide...

Spoiler:

and if you believe that you'll believe anything.

Going on S4 bits and bobs cos i'm lazy and don't want to do all 5 seasons.

*cough*

Adrift - Group effort
Lifeline - Elizabeth
Reunion - Ronon
Doppleganger - McKay and Shep
Travelers - Shep saved himself. Boooo
Tabula Rasa - Ronon/Teyla/McKay
Missing - Teyla
The Seer - None
Miller's Crossing - Shep/McKay
TMC - Repli Team
BAMSR (can you tell i'm getting lazy now?) - Group effort
SoW - Teyla
Quarantine - Shep/Zelenka
Harmony - McKay apparantly.
Trio - Group effort McKay/Sam/Keller
Midway - Group effort but predominantly Teal'c and Ronon
Kindred - Group effort
TLM - No one.

Mmmmmmmmm based on that i'm gonna go with a big fat, I don't think so.

It just seems that Shep saves the day, with his heroic staggering and everything.

[Southern Red]

Does Shep save the day too much? Let's look at this objectively, then i'll decide...

Spoiler:

and if you believe that you'll believe anything.

Going on S4 bits and bobs cos i'm lazy and don't want to do all 5 seasons.

*cough*

Adrift - Group effort
Lifeline - Elizabeth
Reunion - Ronon
Doppleganger - McKay and Shep
Travelers - Shep saved himself. Boooo
Tabula Rasa - Ronon/Teyla/McKay
Missing - Teyla
The Seer - None
Miller's Crossing - Shep/McKay
TMC - Repli Team
BAMSR (can you tell i'm getting lazy now?) - Group effort
SoW - Teyla
Quarantine - Shep/Zelenka
Harmony - McKay apparantly.
Trio - Group effort McKay/Sam/Keller
Midway - Group effort but predominantly Teal'c and Ronon
Kindred - Group effort
TLM - No one.

Mmmmmmmmm based on that i'm gonna go with a big fat, I don't think so.

It just seems that Shep saves the day, with his heroic staggering and everything.

What do you mean laughing at your own objectivity? That was perfect.

And why does this thread make me think of the kirking discussions of S2? How much is too much? Let's see what happens in Broken Ties.

[Linda06]

Does Shep save the day too much? Let's look at this objectively, then i'll decide...

Spoiler:

and if you believe that you'll believe anything.

Going on S4 bits and bobs cos i'm lazy and don't want to do all 5 seasons.

*cough*

Adrift - Group effort
Lifeline - Elizabeth
Reunion - Ronon
Doppleganger - McKay and Shep
Travelers - Shep saved himself. Boooo
Tabula Rasa - Ronon/Teyla/McKay
Missing - Teyla
The Seer - None
Miller's Crossing - Shep/McKay
TMC - Repli Team
BAMSR (can you tell i'm getting lazy now?) - Group effort
SoW - Teyla
Quarantine - Shep/Zelenka
Harmony - McKay apparantly.
Trio - Group effort McKay/Sam/Keller
Midway - Group effort but predominantly Teal'c and Ronon
Kindred - Group effort
TLM - No one.

Mmmmmmmmm based on that i'm gonna go with a big fat, I don't think so.

It just seems that Shep saves the day, with his heroic staggering and everything.

Well these two eps i think it was more like..
Tabula Rasa - Rodney
Missing - Shep/Ronon/Rodney
SoW - Shep/Ronon/Rodney with a little help from Teyla

So all in all there's really not much saving the day from Teyla!

[Pegasus_SGA]

What do you mean laughing at your own objectivity? That was perfect.

And why does this thread make me think of the kirking discussions of S2? How much is too much? Let's see what happens in Broken Ties.

Thank you. *takes a bow*

I think it depends on how much you like the character. Shep fans may say no, McKay fans, Teyla fans, Ronon fans, Zelenka fans may say yes, because Shep has been prominant in S5, but only because he

Spoiler:

whumps very well.

Personally based on that no he doesn't 'save the day' that much, a lot of it is a combined effort, and Shep wouldn't have been able to 'save the day' twice without help from everyone else, because they all contributed something.

[Pegasus_SGA]

Well these two eps i think it was more like..
Tabula Rasa - Rodney
Missing - Shep/Ronon/Rodney
SoW - Shep/Ronon/Rodney with a little help from Teyla

So all in all there's really not much saving the day from Teyla!

Well.

Tabula Rasa definately wasn't shep, because he was whumped. *tries not to squee until she's in the appropriate thread*

I think McKay contributed, but didn't save the day. Ronon brought the weed back. McKay wouldn't have finished the programme without Teyla telling him what he needed to do and distracting the guards so he could try and finish it. Zelenka freeing people and making a run for it. So group effort there.

Missing was definately Teyla and to some degree Keller. Sure the boys showed up with firepower, but save the day? Nope, just because they came at the last few minutes with firepower doesn't mean they 'saved' the girls.

SoW This was Teyla, she caught the queen off guard, and got in her mind. The boys were trapped in the cell and with the queen about to be wraithified. If Teyla hadn't stepped up, they'd have been wraith fodder. So sorry I disagree with you on this.

[Linzi]

ITA. Oh, yeah, I agree about the gene too.
I wish TPTB hadn't decided to drop the whole strongest gene thing. I think it could make for some really interesting storylines.

Oh I agree. I really thought it was dreadful when I heard that TPTB had decided not to pursue Shep's gene. I thought there were a few good stories there! I so wanted there to be one where he lost the use of it! Sorry, it's the whumper in me

I'm hoping that with Teyla's pregnancy over, the team will go on more missions and both Ronon and Teyla will get to have a bigger part in saving the day. When they're all confined to Atlantis or the Daedalus, there's not a lot for Teyla and Ronon to do. That also contributes to the impression that it's always Sheppard saving the day.

I'd agree here too. I want the team! Waaaaaaah! I do like the team feel, and Ronon and Teyla have lots to contribute, I think.

I'm going to slightly disagree. Sheppard is as much a cerebral hero as physical. I love to see him using strategy to win the day (The Storm/The Eye). It makes him more than just another action hero.

Well, ok, you got me there. He's heroic, physically active AND smart! Coulda been mensa, right? And stop making me swoon! But, yep, I can see your point and you're right here.

I so want to see an episode where Sheppard needs the team to save him. More specifically Ronon and/or Teyla. McKay has had plenty of opportunities to save the day. I was hoping for that in S&R, but the Daedalus showed up for a last minute beam-out.

Now this is getting ridiculous! Because I'm agreeing here too. I WANT Ronon or/and Teyla to save Sheppard. I really do. Let them save him. Let anyone save him for goodness sakes!

It's not that I dislike seeing Sheppard play the hero, it's just that for me it's become too predictable how he will do it and how easy it will be. I'd rather see the team in a tight spot and relying on Sheppard's ingenuity, maybe some evasive flying of the puddlejumper, outsmarting the bad guys, rather than being a human bomb in the puddlejumper or popping back from what appear to be serious injuries virtually unscathed.

Mostly I think I'm just bothered by the similarity between S&R and The Seed. It makes Sheppard's extreme heroics far more noticeable when aired so close together. As I said before, I think the grand heroics should be reserved for rare occurances. Otherwise it becomes nothing out of the ordinary.

Well the timing of the two episodes was a bit strange here, I'm not disagreeing with you. If The Seed had appeared later on in the season, I don't think Shep saving the day would have been so noticable here?

Just to touch on something Linzi said...

While Sheppard more often than not is the one to save the day, he's constantly getting embarrassed physically by Ronon and Teyla, which has always annoyed me. I guess they try to balance out his day-saving antics by making him look foolish in hand-to-hand situations.

I like it. I have no idea why. But I like Shep not being good at everything and being outshone by them. I know, I know, it's weird of me

Now I actually love that. Anytime they make Sheppard less perfect I like it.

Ok, so you're weird right alongside me then!

Does Shep save the day too much? Let's look at this objectively, then i'll decide...

Spoiler:

and if you believe that you'll believe anything.

Going on S4 bits and bobs cos i'm lazy and don't want to do all 5 seasons.

*cough*

Adrift - Group effort
Lifeline - Elizabeth
Reunion - Ronon
Doppleganger - McKay and Shep
Travelers - Shep saved himself. Boooo
Tabula Rasa - Ronon/Teyla/McKay
Missing - Teyla
The Seer - None
Miller's Crossing - Shep/McKay
TMC - Repli Team
BAMSR (can you tell i'm getting lazy now?) - Group effort
SoW - Teyla
Quarantine - Shep/Zelenka
Harmony - McKay apparantly.
Trio - Group effort McKay/Sam/Keller
Midway - Group effort but predominantly Teal'c and Ronon
Kindred - Group effort
TLM - No one.

Mmmmmmmmm based on that i'm gonna go with a big fat, I don't think so.

It just seems that Shep saves the day, with his heroic staggering and everything.

Well, I KNOW you're weird!


Actually this is a great post, I know, when aren't your posts great?

You had to bring up heroic staggering, didn't you? But you do have a point!

[miniglik]

I'll update my list trying to put in other people's opinions. Trying to bold anytime someone saved the day doing something daring or sacrificed themselves/put themselves at risk for the greater good. (And not just to save their own butt.)

Rising -- Sheppard
Hide and Seek -- McKay
38 Minutes -- McKay, Ford
Suspicion -- McKay, Sheppard
Childhood's End -- McKay, Sheppard, and Ford
Poisoning the Well -- No one.
Underground -- No one.
Home -- No one.
The Storm/The Eye -- Sheppard
The Defiant One -- Sheppard, McKay, and Ford
Hot Zone -- Sheppard, McKay
Sanctuary -- No one
Before I Sleep -- Weir
The Brotherhood -- Sheppard, Ford, and Teyla.
Letters from Pegasus -- No one.
The Gift -- Teyla.
The Siege Pt 1 -- Dr. Grodin, Team
The Siege Pt 2 -- SGC, Sheppard

The Siege: Part 3 -- Sheppard, Caldwell, McKay, Teyla.
The Intruder -- Sheppard, McKay
Runner -- Ronon.
Duet -- Zelenka
Condemned -- McKay
Trinity -- Sheppard
Instinct -- Ronon
Conversion -- Ronon, Sheppard
Aurora -- Sheppard, some McKay
The Lost Boys/The Hive -- Sheppard, McKay
Epiphany -- Sheppard, Team (the team tried)
Critical Mass -- Sheppard
Grace Under Pressure -- Sheppard, Zelenka
The Tower -- Sheppard
The Long Goodbye -- mostly Teyla, a little Sheppard, McKay
Coup D'etat -- Carson
Michael -- Sheppard, Ronon?
Inferno -- McKay
Allies -- ?

No Man's Land -- Sheppard, Ronon
Misbegotten -- Team
Irresistible -- Sheppard
Sateda -- Ronon, Team
Progeny -- McKay
The Real World -- Weir, Sheppard
Common Ground -- Sheppard, Todd, team
McKay and Mrs. Miller -- McKay, Jeanie, Rod, Zelenka
Phantoms -- Teyla, McKay
The Return: Parts 1&2 -- Team
Echoes -- Sheppard, McKay
Irresponsible -- Sheppard
Tao of Rodney -- McKay
The Game -- No One
The Ark -- Sheppard
Sunday -- Carson
Submersion -- Sheppard, Teyla
Vengeance -- Team
First Strike -- McKay, Caldwell

Adrift -- Everybody
Lifeline -- Weir, Team
Reunion -- Ronon, Lorne's Team
Doppelganger -- McKay, Sheppard
Travelers -- Larrin, Sheppard
Tabula Rasa -- McKay, Ronon, Teyla
Missing -- Teyla
The Seer -- Carter
Miller's Crossing -- Sheppard, McKay, Todd
This Mortal Coil -- Clone Team
Be All My Sins Remember'd -- Everybody but Ronon and Teyla
Spoils of War -- Team
Quarantine -- Zelenka, Sheppard
Harmony -- Sheppard, McKay
Outcast -- Sheppard, Ronon
Trio -- Carter, Keller, McKay
Midway -- Ronon, T'ealc, Sheppard
The Kindred: Part 1 ?
The Kindred: Part 2 ?
The Last Man -- McKay (not daring, but he devoted his life to the cause), Sheppard, and everybody in the alternate timeline

[miniglik]

Still not sure about some of those episode though.