Season Five : Complaints and Misgivings

[Anuna]

Writing romance and especially writing love is hard. We're all too used to common stereotypes,a nd writers can't get their heads out of them. In my opinion a romance in a show like this one shouldn't be the most prominent thing. It should serve to tell us something about the characters, cast a special light on them when dealing with a difficult situation. It shouldn't be used as a fan bait. *firm nod*

[Southern Red]

new ship war...hmm interesting,so you're going with McKeller huh...Then does that mean i've to go with RoKeller...um Kellon...em RonEller....Oh for crying out loud,what do we call Ronon/Keller

No no no I must make myself clear. No. Rodney's too old for her. Everybody is too old for her.

THE ship of this show should be "Wooller". . .Woolsey/Keller.

Come on now - you all know this is the only one that would really work! Whining, crying, doubting, looking bad in their SGA uniforms. Yep, its Wooler for sure!

Now that I might go for. Wooler is good. Or Kelsey. Or we could call it Whiney. Or in keeping with the "sp" theme. Spineless.

[Linda06]

No no no I must make myself clear. No. Rodney's too old for her. Everybody is too old for her.

Yeah i knew you were just messing,i was just having a little fun I have to find the fun where i can get it

Now that I might go for. Wooler is good. Or Kelsey. Or we could call it Whiney. Or in keeping with the "sp" theme. Spineless.

Oh boy,could you imagine...hehe love the names there...especially Whiney and Spineless

Now i really gotta get to bed....maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan why do we have to sleep.....or work!

[Falcon Horus]

....maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan why do we have to sleep...

Because then we can dream of our favorite characters and have oodles of fun in Atlantis. And sleeping is fun...

...or work!

Money, money, money... Must be funny!

[Linda06]

Because then we can dream of our favorite characters and have oodles of fun in Atlantis. And sleeping is fun...

Oh yeah...I must be suffering from sleep deprivation

Money, money, money... Must be funny!

Why is money funny i never understood that... yeah that's the only reason i work,it's certainly not for fun

[justhere1971]

I think "ship" should be left to the viewers, as stated by Shadow. Let us decide what we want to see, and not. I think that's where half the fun is anyway. Stealing a line from Anuna, Canon can kiss my @**.

Anuna: Love what you said. Romance should not be the focus, it should be a device to expound on the characters.

SR: I like Kelsey FP: I like Wooler. Let the naming wars begin?


Sky: I thought we've been playing very nicely this afternoon?

Linda: Good points you brought out about PTB trying to please one too many groups, and in the process botching up the whole mess. I think it's the fans & the characters who get the worst of it.

And a ((hugs)) to FH.

[Linda06]

I think "ship" should be left to the viewers, as stated by Shadow. Let us decide what we want to see, and not. I think that's where half the fun is anyway. Stealing a line from Anuna, Canon can kiss my @**.

Anuna: Love what you said. Romance should not be the focus, it should be a device to expound on the characters.

SR: I like Kelsey FP: I like Wooler. Let the naming wars begin?


Sky: I thought we've been playing very nicely this afternoon?

Linda: Good points you brought out about PTB trying to please one too many groups, and in the process botching up the whole mess. I think it's the fans & the characters who get the worst of it.

And a ((hugs)) to FH.

I've found the fanfic writers can write romance so much better than the actual writers of the show...They just botch the whole thing up by trying to please everybody...What they should have done is went with such and such an idea and stuck with it instead of going all over the place

I also agree,romance should not be the focus of the show but sometimes it might be nice to see little bits here and there but for it not to take over the show...It can be done,look at CSI New York,they done it and it doesn't take away from the show if it's done right...Um ok bad example from what i've been hearing lately

Ok nevermind,just ignore me..I'm sleep deprived and i don't know what i'm talking about

[Jackie]

As for all the ship stuff, quite frankly I hate it all. Ship is something that, IMO, is better left to the imagination of fans, in no small part because fans are far more competent at creating/imagining romantic relationships than TPTB could ever be at actually writing them. When TPTB decide to ship two characters it usually winds up looking more like a train wreck than a romance- and with the same penchant for high body counts (at least among fans). They're so consumed by their own perceived cleverness that they fail to see how ham-fisted their efforts are, how damaging their efforts are and how blatantly stupid the whole will-they/won't-they, on-again/off-again bullcrap they keep shoving at us really is.

The writers can't write romance. They can't write much of anything, IMO, but they're especially bad at romance and I wish to the gods they'd stop trying.

I have to agree with you there about them totally sucking in the writing department when it comes to romance....And the will they/won't they is so overdone and outdated it isn't even funny anymore!

Writing romance and especially writing love is hard. We're all too used to common stereotypes,a nd writers can't get their heads out of them. In my opinion a romance in a show like this one shouldn't be the most prominent thing. It should serve to tell us something about the characters, cast a special light on them when dealing with a difficult situation. It shouldn't be used as a fan bait. *firm nod*

tptb are very, very, very bad at writing emotional relationships...not just love stories...but even brother/sister type stories. Bad at relationships in general!!!!

tptb have a long history of using "ships" to tag fans along...it's the oldest ploy in the book. Create a secondary arc by having unresolved sexual tension.

IMO teasing your fan base will only bring pissed off fans in the end. No one wants to wait years to see a ship develop or in tptb's case...not develop.

If there is a romance in the story the author has an OBLIGATION to bring closer to the relationship for the fans. Yes or no, tried and broke up, get married in the end...whatever...it NEEDS closer. TPTB NEVER give closer to their hinted ships. It's nothing more than a tease and the tease is on us.

I cannot stand the way TPTB treat their fans by tagging us along. Never giving closer to more things then just ships. No closer for Ford for example.

I write too...(not talking about fan fics) and I never hint at a relationship without follow through. That would be totally irresponsible of me to write sexual tension (real sexual tension and not vala/danial sexual tension) in my book and then just leave my reader hanging. There HAS to be closer, what is the point in me writing chapters of sexual tension and flirting between "Fred" and "Bambi" if there is no follow through?

God, I couldn't stand the teasing on SG-1 and I can't stand it on SGA.

TPTB don't know how to write anything beyond big space ships, big busted women, bombs, exploding tumors, robots, techno-babble (they are really good at techno-babble...far better than I am)and Rodney. That's it...nothing else that I have seen thus far.

Anyways, my point was that making these sexual tension ships in the series and then never giving the fan closer is a huge mistake and will cost you the fan later on.

I also found that when I do write fan fic, my shipping is at a minimum due to the fans now having preferred ships. Since TPTB never followed through with closer, fans have convinced themselves certain ships are canon and others are forbidden. (Wrote a sam/dan ship for a friend and boy did I get nasty notes. wrote a slight hint of sam/jack as hearsay in a mystery story and man did I get nasty notes. Wrote out my own OC in favor of the canon Dan/Vala ship and I had fans asking to bring my oc back..Vala didn't deserve Daniel.) OMG, fans are funny!lol...

[Linda06]

tptb are very, very, very bad at writing emotional relationships...not just love stories...but even brother/sister type stories. Bad at relationships in general!!!!

tptb have a long history of using "ships" to tag fans along...it's the oldest ploy in the book. Create a secondary arc by having unresolved sexual tension.

IMO teasing your fan base will only bring pissed off fans in the end. No one wants to wait years to see a ship develop or in tptb's case...not develop.

If there is a romance in the story the author has an OBLIGATION to bring closer to the relationship for the fans. Yes or no, tried and broke up, get married in the end...whatever...it NEEDS closer. TPTB NEVER give closer to their hinted ships. It's nothing more than a tease and the tease is on us.

I cannot stand the way TPTB treat their fans by tagging us along. Never giving closer to more things then just ships. No closer for Ford for example.

I write too...(not talking about fan fics) and I never hint at a relationship without follow through. That would be totally irresponsible of me to write sexual tension (real sexual tension and not vala/danial sexual tension) in my book and then just leave my reader hanging. There HAS to be closer, what is the point in me writing chapters of sexual tension and flirting between "Fred" and "Bambi" if there is no follow through?

God, I couldn't stand the teasing on SG-1 and I can't stand it on SGA.

TPTB don't know how to write anything beyond big space ships, big busted women, bombs, exploding tumors, robots, techno-babble (they are really good at techno-babble...far better than I am)and Rodney. That's it...nothing else that I have seen thus far.

Anyways, my point was that making these sexual tension ships in the series and then never giving the fan closer is a huge mistake and will cost you the fan later on.

I also found that when I do write fan fic, my shipping is at a minimum due to the fans now having preferred ships. Since TPTB never followed through with closer, fans have convinced themselves certain ships are canon and others are forbidden. (Wrote a sam/dan ship for a friend and boy did I get nasty notes. wrote a slight hint of sam/jack as hearsay in a mystery story and man did I get nasty notes. Wrote out my own OC in favor of the canon Dan/Vala ship and I had fans asking to bring my oc back..Vala didn't deserve Daniel.) OMG, fans are funny!lol...

Very well said...I would give you green for that but it won't let me

Yes this whole UST that never gets resolved drives you crazy beyond reasoning...It isn't funny and it pisses alot of people off....I've shipped before with others and it went on for years with no resolution and at the end of the day when they did get together i got to the opoint i didn't really care anymore because they were pissing about that much i lost interest


Don't they realise that doing this just upsets their fans and pisses everybody off,they should either say their going with this ship or that ship or don't even bother going with a ship at all...They can't have it all ways,it just doesn't work and instead of having some happy fans whoever they may be they just have all the fans unhappy,shippers and non shippers alike!

[justhere1971]

tptb are very, very, very bad at writing emotional relationships...not just love stories...but even brother/sister type stories. Bad at relationships in general!!!!

tptb have a long history of using "ships" to tag fans along...it's the oldest ploy in the book. Create a secondary arc by having unresolved sexual tension.

IMO teasing your fan base will only bring pissed off fans in the end. No one wants to wait years to see a ship develop or in tptb's case...not develop.

If there is a romance in the story the author has an OBLIGATION to bring closer to the relationship for the fans. Yes or no, tried and broke up, get married in the end...whatever...it NEEDS closer. TPTB NEVER give closer to their hinted ships. It's nothing more than a tease and the tease is on us.

I cannot stand the way TPTB treat their fans by tagging us along. Never giving closer to more things then just ships. No closer for Ford for example.

I write too...(not talking about fan fics) and I never hint at a relationship without follow through. That would be totally irresponsible of me to write sexual tension (real sexual tension and not vala/danial sexual tension) in my book and then just leave my reader hanging. There HAS to be closer, what is the point in me writing chapters of sexual tension and flirting between "Fred" and "Bambi" if there is no follow through?

God, I couldn't stand the teasing on SG-1 and I can't stand it on SGA.

TPTB don't know how to write anything beyond big space ships, big busted women, bombs, exploding tumors, robots, techno-babble (they are really good at techno-babble...far better than I am)and Rodney. That's it...nothing else that I have seen thus far.

Anyways, my point was that making these sexual tension ships in the series and then never giving the fan closer is a huge mistake and will cost you the fan later on.

I also found that when I do write fan fic, my shipping is at a minimum due to the fans now having preferred ships. Since TPTB never followed through with closer, fans have convinced themselves certain ships are canon and others are forbidden. (Wrote a sam/dan ship for a friend and boy did I get nasty notes. wrote a slight hint of sam/jack as hearsay in a mystery story and man did I get nasty notes. Wrote out my own OC in favor of the canon Dan/Vala ship and I had fans asking to bring my oc back..Vala didn't deserve Daniel.) OMG, fans are funny!lol...

Exactly. Close it out. Don't tease, don't tag along. That's why I enjoyed SG1. We knew there was really something that was hinted between Sam/Jack. What the outcome really is, that's still unclear. But it had more definition than this mess at SGA.

Fans are funny. We are the funniest bunch, and the ones getting made fun of by getting tagged along.

[Linda06]

Exactly. Close it out. Don't tease, don't tag along. That's why I enjoyed SG1. We knew there was really something that was hinted between Sam/Jack. What the outcome really is, that's still unclear. But it had more definition than this mess at SGA.

Fans are funny. We are the funniest bunch, and the ones getting made fun of by getting tagged along.

Yes SG-1 was alot more clear who the ship was but they still didn't give us a resolusion to it...

Ain't that the truth,i bet TPTB sit there and have a big laugh at our expense...It's about time they realised if it wasn't for us fans they wouldn't have a show to run!

[Reiko]

.: You, my fellow lemmings, are evil, evil, evil I am not guilty of multi-quote abuse due to the fact that I'm not gone very long and I had sixty posts to read. On the flip side, nice to see heightened activity for this cause thread.

Wright had to fight to keep Weir as the leading lady...I got that impression from JM's blog when he stated something along the lines of: Wright isn't here to fight for her anymore. We are doing things this way, blah, blah....

.: And if Wright won't, who will? Thats where we come in - the faithful, devoted fans like us that fell in love with SGA from the start and continued to do so in the next three seasons. We (I) stuck to the show, (I know I can't speak for everyone here) because we liked the characters and the dynamic they had, not to mention the gang's perilous adventures through the mysterious galaxy of Pegasus - lead by our fearless leader, Elizabeth Weir. We bought this character. We liked this character. We were the ones who ran amok when it was revealed in season four, that, in lack of better terms, she was a goner. We sent the message. The message got through. They know what that message is: We want Elizabeth. But instead, they deliberately turn their oh-so-holy backs, because their way is the only right way, apparently, eh?

Not to mention going into the obviously developing friendship between the two women and Ronon's growing respect for Weir.

.: Yup. I enjoyed Elizabeth's interactions with Shep and Rodney, but I was also facinated, intrigued, and curious to know and see more of her friendship with Teyla and Ronon. She treats Ronon much differently than Shep and Rodney, who are her two naughty little boys. It's an interesting dynamic and I think Ronon really began to trust her in the third season. I also think that she might be the one that he took the longest to trust - as, they are pretty much polar opposites. But they had a neat chemistry and I would love to see them work together.

.: Teyla and Elizabeth - as a female viewer, I wanted to see more of the "girly" friendship between these two. Just see them hang out, relax, and be women like Ronon and John do. They don't need to be hooked up with guys to be girls. I wish in Sunday they would have been a pair (instead of Weir with her sleazeball date, and Teyla who seemed to have no other purpose but to be injured by Dr. Exploding Chick) and do girl things. (I suppose Elizabeth could be Dr. Exploding Chick ... kill two birds with one stone, but I digress.)

they got rid of Carson and then they got rid of Elizabeth, the only two characters who actually brought the difference and seemed able to tone the others down - while Elizabeth could make both John and Rodney to act smarter and more responsible, Carson brought out the nice, human side of Rodney. <.snip.> One of better things in early S3 was team chemistry - and when i say team I mean whole main cast: John, Elizabeth, Rodney, Ronon, Teyla, Carson. They felt like family on screen and it was joy watching them. What we got now is something like six legged spider with two crutches.

.: ITA. Everyhing was balanced in terms of character chemistry in season three. The only thing that could be way more balanced was McKay and Shep stepping back a bit, but other than that - season four and beyond, we're set to go! Elizabeth and Carson were there to stop Rodney from looking like a conceited ass all the time, and also bringing out a more human, vulnerable side to the character that has otherwise been hidden (or discarded) for the majority of the fourth season. We didn't have this ever-growing recurring cast that TPTB seem ever-so-focused on expanding.

.: In all honestly, I definately wouldn't mind a few Sheppard and McKay episodes if Elizabeth and Carson were still here. I've enjoyed them before. But now? I think not, for the obvious reason. Without a counterbalance to regulate and supress these characters (or Teyla and Ronon also given large roles), the dynamic duo episodes are tedious, tiring, and stale.

I thought we were talking about S5? Weir seem to still bother people, even with her gone. Isn't that interesting?

.: I'm not forgetting what they did with her anytime soon - and I don't think most people will.

As for all the ship stuff, quite frankly I hate it all. Ship is something that, IMO, is better left to the imagination of fans, in no small part because fans are far more competent at creating/imagining romantic relationships than TPTB could ever be at actually writing them.

.: Ship is best left up to the viewer, period. No on-screen kisses unless you're not being yourself. (TPTB writing you out of character not withstanding.) No romantic, onscreen (or implied offscreen) trysts that will have fans rolling their eyes in exasperation. No shoving one's ship in anothers face. I think "ship" should be removed from the writer's vocabulary - because god knows, it'll almost inevitably turn out to be incredibly atrocious, cliched, and obnoxious, not to mention the fact that they simply do not have the genius to write it.

[Irish Eyes]

Say, since we are getting the all-girl team, why couldn't Teyla have been in charge of it? As an added plus we would have had Teyla/Carson moments!

Oh wait. These are the people who wouldn't put Sam in charge of SG1 after EIGHT years.

Never mind.

[Southern Red]

Say, since we are getting the all-girl team, why couldn't Teyla have been in charge of it? As an added plus we would have had Teyla/Carson moments!

Oh wait. These are the people who wouldn't put Sam in charge of SG1 after EIGHT years.

Never mind.

Hmm? That's a very good point. I would think that by this point in time Teyla is very ready to get away from Rodney lead her own team. She has learned a lot from John about the military aspects of what they are doing, already knows how to fight as well as the average Marine, and could certainly teach the other women a thing or two. Having their best people all on the same team is unrealistic. Come to think of it Ronon could lead a team also.

If they continue making Teyla the babe in distress, it will further damage her character. In fact Kanaan looked like a fit guy. Why not keep him and let them lead a team together? That would give us more screen time for her and also more about her culture. No, they would just have them get in trouble and have to be rescued by the big hewoes every other week. Bad idea. Besides, we know Kanaan is a dead man walking.

[Jackie]

.: Ship is best left up to the viewer, period. No on-screen kisses unless you're not being yourself. (TPTB writing you out of character not withstanding.) No romantic, onscreen (or implied offscreen) trysts that will have fans rolling their eyes in exasperation. No shoving one's ship in anothers face. I think "ship" should be removed from the writer's vocabulary - because god knows, it'll almost inevitably turn out to be incredibly atrocious, cliched, and obnoxious, not to mention the fact that they simply do not have the genius to write it.

"No on-screen kisses unless you're not being yourself. (TPTB writing you out of character not withstanding.)"

That is how they get in trouble on this show. It's always OoC, then the fans run rampant with it.

A normal story can have relationships...matter of fact it needs some type of relationship or else there is no connection between the character and the audience. TPTB problem is lack of closer and continued relation hinting. That drives me nuts!

Let's look at the Sam/Jack tease...I call it a tease cause it's neither a relationship or non relationship.

Sam and Jack was supposed to an underlying arc about how relationships, regulations and duty does not mix well. In the AU where Sam/Jack were canon the AU was a disaster and Jack died.

Okay, so Jack admitted in one ep he cared for Carter more than he should have. The ep had the two agreeing never to let the info leave that room. Can't recall the episode right now...it was with the Tok'ra lie detector test.

Anyways, instead of reinforcing the single line closer they gave us...we had Sam/Jack googling each other endlessly. That continued the ship even when it was stopped. Never was the eyeballing dealt with. Hammond never took Colonel O'Neill aside and said, "You and Carter either need to act professional or I'm splitting you two up."

Now, Sam is on SGA and good old love struck puppy, McKay is all ga-ga over her. I want to slap Rodney whenever he turns into a moron around Carter. So, do TPTB end the ship and have Sam say..."I'm dating Jack." Nope! We get an awkward, "Hi Rodney."

Jeepers, tptb could have had Sam state: "After my break up with Pete the stalker...I decided I'm gonna not date anyone for some time. I need time to recover from the trauma associated with everything I've been through." Or even: "Oh, Rodney...I'm so happy to see you. Can you introducing me to your handsome friends I saw earlier?" Or how about: "After my horrible experiences with men...I've decided to become a nun." Of course I would have loved to have seen the forum activity if Sam stated: "Rodney, Guess what? Daniel and I are engaged."