Season Five : Complaints and Misgivings

[Arica12]

It's a bad sign when you start recycling plots you have only just used

Oh I don't think they've just started, in fact I thought Season Four was the first episode of the 'twinned episodes' where the same exact themes pop up a couple of shows later......

Doppleganger and Mortal Coil (Duplicates in fact Let's throw The Kindred 1 and 2 in here as well)

Trio and Harmony, two team members stuck with an annoying brat........

And there are others!

Oh well if nothing else we have a fun new game to play, spot the twin!

[Reiko]

.: I thought Carson being a clone was totally unnecessary and I still feel completely cheated my Joe "Misquote" Mallozzi. But I'll take what I can get, and in this case, it's all the PTB are getting.

Anyway sounds a bit boring, too much like Ripple Effect, how about an episode called the Atlantis variations where the variation is that someone has an original thought.......

.: Lemme get this straight: I don't mind using sci-fi plot devices, but it irritates me to no end when you recycle a script. Which, it seems they are going to do here. Not to mention it probably won't accomplish anything important in the long run.

.: Speaking of which: I don't mind standalone or self-contained episodes, but if it's a basically recycled script - nada.

[Pitry]

Just a random observation... I think it's interesting how on SG-1 everyone (well, some people) raved about Daniel being the "moral compass" of the team and how "lost" they'd be without him. Meanwhile on Atlantis we have Teyla, who is also sort of the "moral compass" of the team, but who is also routinely ignored by her so-called teammates. She questions things, she points out the dubiousness of their plans, they pat her on the ass head and send her off with Ronon to get her out of the way. The fact that she's been right nearly every time seems not to have sunk in with them and I kinda wonder why TPTB have it in there at all, unless they think we're too stupid to figure out that what the team is planning is dark morally dubious/stupid, so they need to have someone TELL us it is. Just for the sake of having it on record.

I have nothing against Teyla, per se, I think she has a lot of potential... but I also think that her potential will NEVER be realized on the show and that makes me wish they'd get rid of her. She serves no real purpose other than looking pretty (which, alas, seems to count for a lot in TPTB's book) and the whole "native guide" routine has gotten rather moot after all this time.

Why is she staying with the team, anyway? Out of habit? She knows they don't listen to her and treat her as less than an equal, so why stay? The stubborn hope that things might get better if she complains voices her concerns often enough? There's a metaphor in there somewhere.

I still think she and Ronon should strike off on their own. Screw Atlantis, the two of 'em would be better off without them and Atlantis would be free of some dead wood.

Because Teyla doesn't really sit in that role. She's the moral voice when it's comfortable for TPTB to have one - much like Daniel was in seasons 7-10. When it's uncomfortable to bring this up, i.e when it serves no story purpose, seh's compeltely quiet. It;s easy to be the moral voice when the episode is about the moral decision, like Michael, but there are moral atrocities done in SGA every week, and Teyla is usually quiet.
The thign about Daniel being the moral voice of the team in early SG1 was that he was - they made the stories more moral because even when it wasn't a major part of the plot, it was there. Even when it was uncomfortable to the plot and ended up in Daniel pissing off a lot of viewers.

And I suspect Teyla isn't being listened to because of TPTB's shortcomings. Obviously, the idea in their head is that her team members appreciate her a lot. That's what we keep on being told. Only since TPTB couldn't care less about Teyla, really, she isn't being listened to cos they don't give her anything important to say in a consistent manner.

[Killdeer]

Well, and you have to consider too that the writers have been handicapping her from the beginning. She introduces them to new societies and they turn out to be enemies. She has this Wraith gene that should theoretically be an asset, but how many times now has she been compromised by it?

Unfortunately the writers have not really worked on proving Teyla as an asset to the team. And the difference between her and Daniel as the moral voice is that Teyla gets more easily shoved aside. Daniel would get in your face and throw a tantrum if he needed to get your attention. Teyla's personality gets overlooked. And the last couple of seasons the writers have slowly been drifting into casting her more in the damsel-in-distress role, which does NOT help her at all.

[Jackie]

Just read the spoilers for Daedalus Variations.......I'm sure I read a scifi book with that exact plot several years ago....it was about a group of people who kept jumping realities on one planet until they came to a reality in which the planet never existed and they were in space and so died.....wish I could remember the book's name.........


Anyway sounds a bit boring, too much like Ripple Effect, how about an episode called the Atlantis variations where the variation is that someone has an original thought.......

there is no such thing as an 'original story arc." Every single story on the market is inspired by another idea, then another idea, ect.

The issue lies when tptb have boxed their writing into a style of which they cannot see past what they presume is sci-fi.

George Lucas got the idea of Luke's X wing from the P-51 mustang...the common thread element is both are fighter craft but the X-wing was changed to NOT look like a P-51 mustang.

TPTB cannot seem to take that common element and change it to the point where the audience will not recognize where it came from.

Well, and you have to consider too that the writers have been handicapping her from the beginning. She introduces them to new societies and they turn out to be enemies. She has this Wraith gene that should theoretically be an asset, but how many times now has she been compromised by it?

Unfortunately the writers have not really worked on proving Teyla as an asset to the team. And the difference between her and Daniel as the moral voice is that Teyla gets more easily shoved aside. Daniel would get in your face and throw a tantrum if he needed to get your attention. Teyla's personality gets overlooked. And the last couple of seasons the writers have slowly been drifting into casting her more in the damsel-in-distress role, which does NOT help her at all.

Recycled script...tptb have always done that in stargate. Just with earlier sg-1 the recycled script wasn't so obvious.

Now with SGA...the writer's have boxed themselves into this formula where even an original is a recycled script.

I think most writers like to take an idea and rewrite it to see how the ending could differ...but TPTB don't seem to be interested in having a different ending. No matter what happens the ending is always...Shep and Mckay save the day.

What I liked about SG-1...season 1-7...the ending could be not what you expect. One would think...Sam and Jack will save the day only to find out...Sam and Jack saved the hour but not the day.

SGA...doesn't have that...McKay always saves the day.

[Southern Red]

there is no such thing as an 'original story arc." Every single story on the market is inspired by another idea, then another idea, ect.

The issue lies when tptb have boxed their writing into a style of which they cannot see past what they presume is sci-fi.

George Lucas got the idea of Luke's X wing from the P-51 mustang...the common thread element is both are fighter craft but the X-wing was changed to NOT look like a P-51 mustang.

TPTB cannot seem to take that common element and change it to the point where the audience will not recognize where it came from.


Recycled script...tptb have always done that in stargate. Just with earlier sg-1 the recycled script wasn't so obvious.

Now with SGA...the writer's have boxed themselves into this formula where even an original is a recycled script.

I think most writers like to take an idea and rewrite it to see how the ending could differ...but TPTB don't seem to be interested in having a different ending. No matter what happens the ending is always...Shep and Mckay save the day.

What I liked about SG-1...season 1-7...the ending could be not what you expect. One would think...Sam and Jack will save the day only to find out...Sam and Jack saved the hour but not the day.

SGA...doesn't have that...McKay always saves the day.

I don't so much care about recycled plots as I do about well-written recycled plots. *remembers the Supernatural where the day kept repeating...golden*

These writers seem to be in a rut to me. Burned out maybe. Even the new blood is burned out. I'm looking at you Martin Gero. We've gone from the wonder that was TS/TE, Siege 1,2,3 to Harmony and Trio. Something's not right. The thrill seems to be gone, and I think it's a shame.

There are a lot of situations that I would love to see these guys in, in various combinations. But they can't seem to get past ways to showcase McKay yet again, and lately to make Sheppard look incompetent or just plain silly. Why did I love Outcast so much? No McKay, and there we had take charge Shep at his best. It also proved he can be emotional without it involving Rodney. More please.

[Ice Wolf]

I don't so much care about recycled plots as I do about well-written recycled plots. *remembers the Supernatural where the day kept repeating...golden*

These writers seem to be in a rut to me. Burned out maybe. Even the new blood is burned out. I'm looking at you Martin Gero. We've gone from the wonder that was TS/TE, Siege 1,2,3 to Harmony and Trio. Something's not right. The thrill seems to be gone, and I think it's a shame.

There are a lot of situations that I would love to see these guys in, in various combinations. But they can't seem to get past ways to showcase McKay yet again, and lately to make Sheppard look incompetent or just plain silly. Why did I love Outcast so much? No McKay, and there we had take charge Shep at his best.

I agree the problem isn't recycled plots so much , it's that they are poorly written and executed and badly thought out. McKay is way too overexposed, the writers are using him as a crutch to the detriment of the entire show.

EDIT: If you notice something all those great episodes from Gero involve Weir in a significant capacity.

It also proved he can be emotional without it involving Rodney. More please.

Unfortunately most of those emotional scene's involved a character who is no longer with the show. The loss of Weir has been largely detrimental to Sheppard''s character.

[marielabbott]

These writers seem to be in a rut to me. Burned out maybe. Even the new blood is burned out. I'm looking at you Martin Gero. We've gone from the wonder that was TS/TE, Siege 1,2,3 to Harmony and Trio. Something's not right. The thrill seems to be gone, and I think it's a shame.

I wonder if they've been doing this for so long that they're ready to move on to other jobs, and new challenges. I loved this show for the characters, but it seems that the writers no longer care much for them...they're written inconsistently, shoved in a corner if they're not as easy or fun to write for, or written out for ???? reasons. Fan fiction writers with ability don't make these mistakes, because they love the characters.

[Southern Red]

I agree the problem isn't recycled plots so much , it's that they are poorly written and executed and badly thought out. McKay is way too overexposed, the writers are using him as a crutch to the detriment of the entire show.

EDIT: If you notice something all those great episodes from Gero involve Weir in a significant capacity.



Unfortunately most of those emotional scene's involved a character who is no longer with the show. The loss of Weir has been largely detrimental to Sheppard''s character.

That is so true. Believe it or not, I didn't think about that. It's like he doesn't have anybody to talk to or bounce things off. Or even more so, noone on his level to just stand on the balcony (or sit on the corner of the desk) and exchange ideas with. John and Elizabeth always spoke in "we" when talking about decision making. Go back to the last scenes in CM, Coup, Progeny, The Tower, just to name a few. They seemed to be co-leaders. I liked his relationship with Carter, but you just never got that idea. And really it wasn't possible because of her rank. She deferred to him at times, and he waited for her orders at times, but they never talked things through together as far as I recall. John has never looked more aimless than when he tries to make a decision without Elizabeth, and you don't have to ship them to see that.

I wonder if they've been doing this for so long that they're ready to move on to other jobs, and new challenges. I loved this show for the characters, but it seems that the writers no longer care much for them...they're written inconsistently, shoved in a corner if they're not as easy or fun to write for, or written out for ???? reasons. Fan fiction writers with ability don't make these mistakes, because they love the characters.

ITA with this also. They change the characters to fit the plots which apparently they pull out of their butts rehash from old episodes.

[Reiko]

I agree the problem isn't recycled plots so much , it's that they are poorly written and executed and badly thought out. McKay is way too overexposed, the writers are using him as a crutch to the detriment of the entire show.

.: ITA. Recycled plots can be entertaining if you write them in character and mix it up - not to mention phenomenal writing, of course.

.: Rodney is detrimenting the show, and the loss of Weir and Carson detriments Rodney himself.

[marielabbott]

That is so true. Believe it or not, I didn't think about that. It's like he doesn't have anybody to talk to or bounce things off. Or even more so, noone on his level to just stand on the balcony (or sit on the corner of the desk) and exchange ideas with. John and Elizabeth always spoke in "we" when talking about decision making. Go back to the last scenes in CM, Coup, Progeny, The Tower, just to name a few. They seemed to be co-leaders. I liked his relationship with Carter, but you just never got that idea. And really it wasn't possible because of her rank. She deferred to him at times, and he waited for her orders at times, but they never talked things through together as far as I recall. John has never looked more aimless than when he tries to make a decision without Elizabeth, and you don't have to ship them to see that.

I liked the co-leader dynamic with Weir. I think it worked well (and I don't ship them). I didn't like his relationship with Carter because Sheppard just seemed...less with her, less presence, less chemistry, etc. I sometimes felt like he was Lt. Col. Errand Boy. And what will he be with Woolsey? Mentor in leadership skills? Challenger to Woolsey's authority? De facto leader of the base until Woolsey has his "development" episode and joins the team for lunch in the final, forced shots of an episode? I'm not sure how this is going to work....

[Southern Red]

I liked the co-leader dynamic with Weir. I think it worked well (and I don't ship them). I didn't like his relationship with Carter because Sheppard just seemed...less with her, less presence, less chemistry, etc. I sometimes felt like he was Lt. Col. Errand Boy. And what will he be with Woolsey? Mentor in leadership skills? Challenger to Woolsey's authority? De facto leader of the base until Woolsey has his "development" episode and joins the team for lunch in the final, forced shots of an episode? I'm not sure how this is going to work....

Me neither, and it's got me worried. I like the idea of him butting heads with Woolsey. But Woolsey all redeemed and changed is a bad idea. The team needs someone to gang up against. I think they should have done more with Caldwell in that respect. Woolsey not being military gives John a chance to mouth off at least. Sigh.

[Jackie]

I don't so much care about recycled plots as I do about well-written recycled plots. *remembers the Supernatural where the day kept repeating...golden*

These writers seem to be in a rut to me. Burned out maybe. Even the new blood is burned out. I'm looking at you Martin Gero. We've gone from the wonder that was TS/TE, Siege 1,2,3 to Harmony and Trio. Something's not right. The thrill seems to be gone, and I think it's a shame.

There are a lot of situations that I would love to see these guys in, in various combinations. But they can't seem to get past ways to showcase McKay yet again, and lately to make Sheppard look incompetent or just plain silly. Why did I love Outcast so much? No McKay, and there we had take charge Shep at his best. It also proved he can be emotional without it involving Rodney. More please.

Burned out could very well be the problem. They have been writing the same formula, same characters for so long they might need a break or to introduce new writers. They fall back on McKay way too much.

MASH lasted a long time,(11 years) the scene and the formula was the same. The writers were the same BUT the writers for MASH didn't try to re-invent the show or use plot devices. They sat down and wrote with a number of characters in mind.

MASH had a cast turn over and whenever one cast member left it was done with dignity. that character was referred to in other eps and not just in passing.

When Radar went home and Klinger had to take over as company clerk he struggled to do Radar's job. When Henery Blake died after being discharged I feared who they were going to bring in to replace him. My favorite character is Colonel Sherman Potter (loved him)

Loved BJ when he replaced Trapper John. Loved Charles Winchester the 3rd after replacing Frank Burns. As a kid, I hated Frank but as an adult and now introducing my daughter to MASH...I really appreciate that actor more than anyone. Larry Hagglin allowed himself to be made into the butt jokes for the sake of the show. The actor was loved by everyone behind the scene--he was a sweetheart in real life.

MASH did it! MASH held high ratings, a huge following, major cast changes and ran longer on US TV than SG-1. They did it without the bombs, butts and boobs that sci-fi seems to gravitate towards. And MASH did it without computer special effects! No big battleships! Just the camp and the chopper.

If tptb looked at MASH and followed that example SGA could last a decade.

I agree the problem isn't recycled plots so much , it's that they are poorly written and executed and badly thought out. McKay is way too overexposed, the writers are using him as a crutch to the detriment of the entire show.

EDIT: If you notice something all those great episodes from Gero involve Weir in a significant capacity.



Unfortunately most of those emotional scene's involved a character who is no longer with the show. The loss of Weir has been largely detrimental to Sheppard''s character.

McKay is a crutch cause they can't write for anyone else in that caliper. Hence, McKay is the star of the show now. IMO anyways.

I wonder if they've been doing this for so long that they're ready to move on to other jobs, and new challenges. I loved this show for the characters, but it seems that the writers no longer care much for them...they're written inconsistently, shoved in a corner if they're not as easy or fun to write for, or written out for ???? reasons. Fan fiction writers with ability don't make these mistakes, because they love the characters.

It might help if they took a step back and really examined what they were doing. When Gekko and RDA ran SG-1 they had the formula for a successful show. those guys knew what to do to make the little show continue to grow. Of course, RDA is from the same generation as the MASH writers and perhaps there is a generation gap where the prior PTB seemed to understand the audience better.

[maxbo]

It's their definition of lead I guess. I would have been "happy" with Weir getting less eps/screentime from the beginning if she hadn't been slotted in at #2 in the rankings. Likewise, I was disappointed with Carter getting less screentime simply because she was at #2 and should have deserved more. The same goes for the others.

My biggest issue is the fact they took the leading female role and reduced it to a mere figure head. Weir was cast as the leading lady...of course that title now goes to Rodney.

It wasn't just being slotted as #2 in the opening credits that created the expectation that Elizabeth would be more than a figurehead, it was also the fact that in The Lost World and New Order she was used as the main bridge between SG-1 and SGA. Those episodes seemed to indicate that TPTB were serious about using a different leadership model in SGA. A leadership where the chain of command was murky and therefore had to be written carefully. I was really looking forward to seeing how they would deal with that. It's too bad that they didn't plot how to handle this issue beyond Season 1.

Ronon and Teyla are just as important as John and Rodney and I wish the ptb would realise that. They bring balance to the show and I honestly think they work much better as a team. I don't think Teyla is wallpapered near as much as some suggest. She will never get reams of dialogue like Rodney or be front and centre like Shep but her presence is just as important as the others on the show. I would still like to see both Ronon and Teyla have more to do but I don't think we are ever going to see that as the ptb seem to think that John and Rodney drive the show, and to some they do, but like anything too much of a good thing can untimately become boring and tedious and that is where I think we are at the moment.

I agree that Ronon and Teyla are just as important as John and Rodney and that TPTB will never realize this because they seem to believe that as long as they largely focus on Rodney (with Sheppard on the side) that it doesn't matter if they short-change the other characters. Unfortunately, there is so much Rodney (with Sheppard on the side) to choose from that upcoming scenes featuring them don't create the kind of anticipation that upcoming scenes featuring non-Rodney/Sheppard characters do for me.

So the only presence on the show at the moment is John and Rodney but even Sheppard doesnt get near as much good stuff as Rodney. He may up front and centre a lot more than Teyla and Ronon but he is just as much wallpapered. His actions have become too predictable as he only gets to be the stoic hero and rarely do we see him come out of his box. But the character still facinates me mainly because of Joe Flanigans portrayal. He puts so much more into the character than is written for him and Rachel also IMO. I would love to see both of them get more dramtic and meaty stuff but even if they don't they still interest me enough to keep watching.

Although I frequently complain about how much TPTB ignore Teyla, I agree that Sheppard has also been wallpapered. In fact, I often think that his wallpapering has been worse because of the fact that he's on screen a lot, yet doesn't have much meaty material, which has led to complaints that he's a lightweight character. I disagree mainly because of Joe Flanigan.

Just as Rachel Luttrell saves Teyla for me, despite the lazy writing for the character, Joe Flanigan's portrayal of Sheppard is what keeps me interested in Sheppard. Joe adds just enough non-verbal cues in his acting that I can see beyond the often lackluster dialogue to the multi-dimensional character lurking beneath.

In fact, I can say the same for each of the Seasons 1-3 characters because it's mainly the actors that keep me interested in their characters, not the writing for the characters.

And yep Rodney always gets the meaty and emotional stories while the others get the action eps,i think that's one of the things that irks me ,why not give Teyla or Ronon or even John an emotional ep,show us a different side to them instead of the let's shoot something or let's beat someone up ep.

Yes, Rodney does always get the meaty and emotional stories while the others get the action episodes. Not only is this not fair to the other characters, but it's also not fair to Rodney. Because how many times can he experience these once-in-a-lifetime life altering events and then revert right back to the same old Rodney in the next few episodes?

Chemistry is an interesting topic.

IMO weir had chemistry with just about everyone. Her strongest pairings were with McKay and with Teyla.

The chemistry she had with sheppard was more of a school teacher and disobedient student than anything else.

Yes, chemistry is an interesting topic because it's a topic on which there will never be 100% agreement. Case in point, I share some of your opinions on chemistry between the characters and don't share others.

I agree that Elizabeth had chemistry with just about everyone. And I also agree about McKay and Teyla being her strongest pairings. In fact, anticipation of how the Elizabeth and Teyla relationship would develop is what first sparked my interest in SGA. That's because the first full SGA episode I ever saw was Suspicion and among other things, I loved that last scene with them on the balconey because I saw two strong, but very different women who were each forced to deal with a new reality. In that scene I saw two strong-willed women who were beginning to respect each other and was looking forward to seeing how they would relate to each other over the course of the series.

Little did I know that TPTB felt that they had fulfilled their quota for Elizabeth/Teyla scenes for that season as well as the next season.

I was also looking forward to seeing how the co-leadership between Elizabeth and Sheppard would progress because although they needed to work together to survive, they were so different that conflicts were bound to arise. Conflicts like in Hot Zone where neither was completely right or completely wrong. Unfortunately, by Season 2, that interesting dynamic had disappeared.

Say, since we are getting the all-girl team, why couldn't Teyla have been in charge of it? As an added plus we would have had Teyla/Carson moments!

Oh wait. These are the people who wouldn't put Sam in charge of SG1 after EIGHT years.

Never mind.

Exactly, why couldn't Teyla have been charge of the all-girl team? Yes, I would still consider an all-girl team cheesy stunt-casting, but I would be far more interested in them if Teyla were leading them. But, of course, that would mean writing more for Teyla than the x amount of lines that they have alloted for her in Season 5, so TPTB couldn't have that. Considering that they made Sam wait 11 years before they made her an undisputed leader, Teyla will lead a team when hell freezes over.

TPTB making Teyla the babe in distress makes me laugh...She could probably take out half the guys on Atlantis...At the same time......nd before anyone starts no i didn't mean take out as on a date

You know, the fact that Teyla could wipe the floor with most of the people that she comes across is the only thing I find remotely amusing about her being written as the damsel in distress. Teyla as a damsel in distress - talk about cheesy, plot-driven writing!

...Well as for the whole romance thing...It can work if it writteb right,Farscape done it and it worked so if they've got writers that are good enough it can be done!

Yes, if TPTB had treated ship as Farscape did, as a part of the show, then it could have worked on SGA also. The problem with SG-1/SGA's TPTB is that they use ship as a gimmick to be written in and then discarded until the next time they need a gimmick and then the cycle continues.

[Reiko]

I agree that Ronon and Teyla are just as important as John and Rodney and that TPTB will never realize this because they seem to believe that as long as they largely focus on Rodney (with Sheppard on the side) that it doesn't matter if they short-change the other characters.

.: ITA. I absolutely do firmly believe Ronon and Teyla can carry an episode on their own - but only if TPTB lets them. And the fact that Shep and McKay have to be in every single episode (did we ever have that rule with anybody else? no) undermines this possibility. I'm not saying they would have zip screentime. I'm saying that they should have a minor B-story, or at least be separated.

Just as Rachel Luttrell saves Teyla for me, despite the lazy writing for the character, Joe Flanigan's portrayal of Sheppard is what keeps me interested in Sheppard. Joe adds just enough non-verbal cues in his acting that I can see beyond the often lackluster dialogue to the multi-dimensional character lurking beneath.

In fact, I can say the same for each of the Seasons 1-3 characters because it's mainly the actors that keep me interested in their characters, not the writing for the characters.

.: It's all in the character portrayals to me, and it's amazing what they've done with their characters. I know enough that you just don't read what the script says; you need to put thought and character into it, and that's what makes characters worth watching for me. Because, in all honesty, and as much as they would hate to hear it, TPTB are not 100% in control of the characters

.: Each of the primary season 1-3 characters held my equal interest: Shep, Rodney, Teyla, Carson, Ronon, Elizabeth and 'minor' characters such as Radek, Ford, Lorne, Cadman and Kate. The problem with Keller (and Carter) in particular, and I'm sure this will also arise with the new "all female" team - is that they simply fail to interest me. Carter is in all honesty the epitome of an SG Mary-Sue, and the only thing with Keller that merely interests me is coming up with ways to kill her. Not to mention that little thing called chemistry.

Exactly, why couldn't Teyla have been charge of the all-girl team? Yes, I would still consider an all-girl team cheesy stunt-casting, but I would be far more interested in them if Teyla were leading them.

.: That was actually my idea ()when the All-Female team was announced - I really wanted Teyla to lead them. She deserves to lead her own team for once. (In Whispers I would get my ample Carson/Teyla time) But instead we get random chick (which bimbette was it again?) while Teyla is not mentioned at all.