More Wraith character development

[dasNdanger]

I will give you that part. Especially since we have seen how some wraith lavish the joy when they feed.

But don't you have great joy when you eat? I've often caught myself going 'mmmm-mmmm-MMMM!' when eating something really good. So...I guess these guys, especially if they're starving, DO find great joy when feeding.

Remember what Larrin said to John after John made the Wraith restore her years to her in The Travellers? She said it 'felt kinda good', and I think John said something like, 'I know, happened to me once. Long story.' So, if restoring one's life feels good to a human, I assume that feeding feels WONDERFUL to Wraith. Guess it's why they like us so much...



das

[GoSpikey]

I put the first feeding of Todd on Sheppard on again, today (couldn't watch the rest as SG-1 was about to start), and he truly goes all:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Must be VERY good for them, when they're starved, to finally feed.

If Todd or Michael ever want me to worship them...

They need not torture me for it. But you already knew that, right?

[Scyld]

Very true. but i can easily see why some advocate killing anything that preys on us humans.. Speciesism. Where they favor humans over anything else.

Of course I favor humans over other species. I am human. Therefore, if there is a predator that preys exclusively upon my species, I desire its death. No matter what else a person may say, it always comes down to one simple fact: the wraith EAT PEOPLE. It's not a question of whether or not they have the right to kill us for food or if we have the right to kill them for eating us. They eat us. Therefore, if we do not ourselves wish to become their food, it is in our best interest to kill them before they can do so.

If you get that 'cure' done before we finish killing them all, we'll talk.

[Pharaoh Atem]

i would like more wraith like todd someone with a personalty

[nx01a]

Once upon a time, a Scorpion...

That 'Scorpion' parable is perhaps the most overused metaphor in all of sci-fi. I've heard it quoted across at least 6 shows, twice by Robert Beltran [though only once as Chakotay].

The point being, while I might not call Wraith evil, I am still comfortable destroying them. Sure, they're sentient life forms. But they're also predators whose only food is my species. That is not the sort of thing you can make peace with. Ever.
A Wraith is actually far worse than a murderer. A murderer typically does what he does for reasons of passion. For the sake of hatred, or rage, or for some other pathetic emotional reason. The murderer understands the value of life, because he empowers himself in the profane act of taking it. The Wraith, on the other hand, do what they do for the worst possible reasons they could possibly do them: practical reasons. They kill in order to nourish their bodies.
This makes what they do unforgivable.

Which is worse: killing to serve a biological imperative and not particularly caring one way or the other about your prey or not needing to kill but doing so simply for the sadistic pleasure of inflicting pain and death on your victims? It's like watching the Discovery Channel. Sure you feel bad for the gazelles but you can't save them all, and you can't kill all the lions. Now, if you had a drug that could turn all the lions into [relatively] harmless housecats, that might be a good thing. Unless you're a mouse...

[jenks]

That 'Scorpion' parable is perhaps the most overused metaphor in all of sci-fi. I've heard it quoted across at least 6 shows, twice by Robert Beltran [though only once as Chakotay].


Which is worse: killing to serve a biological imperative and not particularly caring one way or the other about your prey or not needing to kill but doing so simply for the sadistic pleasure of inflicting pain and death on your victims? It's like watching the Discovery Channel. Sure you feel bad for the gazelles but you can't save them all, and you can't kill all the lions. Now, if you had a drug that could turn all the lions into [relatively] harmless housecats, that might be a good thing. Unless you're a mouse...

That's different, you're trying to argue as if we're an outside race looking in, but we're not. Humans are their prey, and if, as humans we have a moral obligation to save other humans lives then we also have a moral obligation to kill the Wraith, because for every Wraith that lives, many more humans will die. By allowing them to live all the expedition would be doing would be satisfying their own warped sense of empathy, it would be a selfish act of ignorance designed to distance themselves from the killing, because leaving the Wraith alive while there is no other solution, is a death sentence for every other human in the galaxy. Sure they should be trying to solve the 'Wraith feeding problem', but they should also be doing everything in their power to destroy the Wraith in the mean time.

[ciannwn]

If you get that 'cure' done before we finish killing them all, we'll talk.

How do you expect garhkal to invent a cure? Only TPTB can do that.

Humans are their prey, and if, as humans we have a moral obligation to save other humans lives then we also have a moral obligation to kill the Wraith, because for every Wraith that lives, many more humans will die.

When the situation is just presented as members of a species having a survival instinct, then that's fine. Animal predators (including humans because we're animals) can be badly injured from their prospective food prey fighting back and they can die as a result. When it comes down to Nature it's really all about which models of 'gene survival machines' are the best. Wraith are highly vulnerable because of their specialised diet so becoming extinct due to their prey fighting back would be a direct result of this. Wraith would then be a 'failed survival machine model' for both 'human genes' and 'Iratus bug genes' because they evolved the 'Wraith machine' between them and now share it. Genes have no 'emotional attachment' to survival machines, though. If Wraith adapted to eating ordinary food and then all Pegasus humans dropped dead of a plague, the 'human genes' in the Wraith model wouldn't cry over it - they'd just carry on replicating through Wraith.

What I, personally, class as speciesism are statements on the following lines -

A Wraith is actually far worse than a murderer. A murderer typically does what he does for reasons of passion. For the sake of hatred, or rage, or for some other pathetic emotional reason. The murderer understands the value of life, because he empowers himself in the profane act of taking it. The Wraith, on the other hand, do what they do for the worst possible reasons they could possibly do them: practical reasons. They kill in order to nourish their bodies.
This makes what they do unforgivable.

I'm now going to bring up that word genocide again in relation to the real life human activity. When Group A exterminates Group B they are killing fellow humans who are just like themselves. How can they bring themselves to do such a thing? Here are two quotes from an article about it -

The Eight Stages Of Genocide

3. DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group.

7. EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human.

Why is doing that towards members of one's own species 'better' than Wraith feeding on humans in order to live?

but they should also be doing everything in their power to destroy the Wraith in the mean time

A bit of caution when looking at 'everything' might well be more beneficial to humans in the long run.

Spoiler:

The expedition using the Asurans as a weapon was a disaster for several human communities.

The topic is actually about giving Wraith more character development etc. though. SG1 did this for the Goa'uld along with supplying details about Goa'uld culture and history. If TPTB can do this for one alien species in their fictional universe, why can't they do it for another?

[Scyld]

I'm now going to bring up that word genocide again in relation to the real life human activity. When Group A exterminates Group B they are killing fellow humans who are just like themselves. How can they bring themselves to do such a thing? Here are two quotes from an article about it -

The Eight Stages Of Genocide

3. DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group.

7. EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human.

Why is doing that towards members of one's own species 'better' than Wraith feeding on humans in order to live?

Murder isn't the same thing as genocide. Genocide is far more than just 'killing many humans.' A murderer kills most often out of passion; it is a strange and marvellous thing for a man or a woman engaged in the act of killing another human being to be emotionally distant from the act. That is why we tend to think of 'stone cold killers' as being more monstrous than those who have pathetic emotional excuses (note that by 'pathetic' I do not mean 'contemptible').

Genocide is something else entirely. It is the dehumanization of human beings, both of the victim and of the aggressor. Within it is contained the fullness of the mystery of man's inhumanity towards man. There can be no hemming or hawing in the face of such brutality. It must be stamped out, or it will burn everything it can reach. But here can be seen a reflection of exactly why the Wraith are horrifying, and that is in the reasons for which people committing genocide will kill their victims.

Remember that someone who is seen as being emotionally distant from his or her act of murder is seen as much more monstrous than someone who does it for pathetic emotional reasons. Someone who kills another human being because he or she views his or her victim as an animal, as vermin, as an insect, or as a disease which must be destroyed has much more in common with the cannibal than with the murderer. He is killing another human being for the worst possible reasons: practical ones. The genocidist because his victims are only an infestation of vermin which must be wiped out. It's only sanitary. The cannibal because his victim is only so much meat and bone. It's just food, after all. Would a jury be more or less harsh in their sentencing if the defendant said that the reason they killed their victim was that they had a hankering for a nice, juicy steak cut from their victim's thigh? The cannibal and the genocidist each commit their crimes for reasons that are entirely practical, and each of their crimes is therefore unforgivable.

So it is with the Wraith. They kill to eat. They kill us to eat. Sentient creatures. Living souls. If the Wraith themselves were moral creatures, they would each of them voluntarily starve to death rather than eat human beings. Alas, such an act is beyond them: they are too civilized to consider such enlightened barbarism. Their hands are too well-scrubbed.

The topic is actually about giving Wraith more character development etc. though. SG1 did this for the Goa'uld along with supplying details about Goa'uld culture and history. If TPTB can do this for one alien species in their fictional universe, why can't they do it for another?

Fair enough.

[ciannwn]

If the Wraith themselves were moral creatures, they would each of them voluntarily starve to death rather than eat human beings.

Morality is a purely human concept which has nothing whatsoever to do with Nature and evolution. No other animals have 'moral values' as far as we know - there were no 'morals' before humans appeared on the scene and if we all dropped dead tomorrow there'd be no 'morals' on the planet again. Nature doesn't care if members of a species kill other species for food or even kill and eat each other. Chimpanzees do both -

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/deepj...de3_watts.html

In the 1970s, primate researchers shocked many people with the news that chimpanzees hunted and killed colobus monkeys.

Now it turns out that chimps and humans have something else in common: the capacity to kill, and not just for food.

Then came even more stunning news: Chimps killed, and sometimes ate, their own kind too.

Today, many scientists believe the hunts are a form of organized violence that plays an important role in chimp culture.

We've also observed groups of male chimps going on patrol and being pretty nasty to their neighbors. Since we've been there, we've documented chimps killing at least seven infant chimps, four adult males, and one juvenile chimp. Other times, they have beaten up females pretty badly.

Chimpanzees are our closest relatives.

http://anthropology.si.edu/HumanOrigins/ha/primate.html

Comparisons of DNA show that our closest living relatives are the ape species of Africa, and most studies by geneticists show that chimpanzees and humans are more closely related to each other than either is to gorillas.

However, it must be stressed that humans did not evolve from living chimpanzees. Rather, our species and chimpanzees are both the descendants of a common ancestor that was distinct from other African apes.

This indicates that human and chimpanzee violence are related. Nature doesn't care what chimps get up to and is equally indifferent to what humans get up to as well.

Human 'moral values' are human ideas which members of our species can throw out of the window whenever it suits them. Wraith aren't humans and as Beckett said - " .. they're still much closer to the bug creature that attacked Major Sheppard than to us...", it's more than likely that chimps are more closely related to humans than Wraith are. As 'human moral values' aren't an inherent property of Nature there is no reason at all why Wraith, who aren't human, should share them.

Wraith kill humans for a practical reason - they need them for food. Humans, in turn, kill Wraith for an equally practical reason - they do it to avoid being fed on by Wraith. Nature doesn't care if humans or Wraith survive and certainly isn't going to favour humans because it thinks that they have 'better moral values' than Wraith.

PS: If we get more about Wraith culture etc. there's no reason why TPTB should have them agonising over human ideas of 'moral dilemmas'. The Nox are an advanced race in the Stargate universe but their values weren't the same as the values of the SG1 team.

[Scyld]

re: ciannwn

None of that addresses my point at all. You appear to have... er... reiterated what I myself said a few posts back?

There is only one idea in your post that I take issue with, and it is the implication that because in our experience only human beings have these things called 'morals,' that morals must therefore somehow be false or illusory or otherwise disconnected from reality. But that is altogether beside the point, and only a peripheral one at that.

I argued from a moral perspective only in response to such comments as, "We don't have the right to exterminate the Wraith just because they have inconvenient dietary requirements," and only after talk of it being in humanity's best interest to destroy a predator species so clearly tailored to hunt and kill us utterly failed to make any kind of impression.

[dasNdanger]

Bottom line, Scyld, is this...

This isn't reality - it's fiction, and science fiction at that. If TPTB want to save the Wraith by finding an alternative food source, they will. If TPTB want to commit genocide on the Wraith, they will. As a fan of the Wraith - this thread is meant to draw attention to the ALTERNATIVES to genocide, and to suggest that the Wraith - their culture, and their personalities - can - and SHOULD be developed further. But there is no use in doing that if TPTB just plan to wipe them all out (which is the current trend).

So - let's try to keep this positive. I am interested in seeing further development of these characters, and the BEST WAY for that to happen is if they find an alternative food source, or are somehow 'cured' of their current condition of not being able to absorb nutrition from normal food. Fix that, and the possibiliites are endless.

For instance...I have said before (here, elsewhere) that the best solution for a fan such as myself is for the Wraith to find a way to gain nutrition from regular food - but NOT lose their hunger for humans. That way you can have Wraith who chose to survive on normal food and fight their hunger for humans (like an alcoholic resists a drink) because they realize an alliance with humans is more advantageous - in the long run - than feasting upon them. This would be a huge leap for Wraith to take, and would create quite a stir in both their society, and in the galaxy as a whole. It could be seen as an evolution of their species...coming closer to their human form than their iratus bug ancestors.

It would also allow for those Wraith (the majority, perhaps) who refuse to eat normally, but choose instead to keep to the old way of culling and feeding exclusively on humans. This would leave the door open for the Wraith to find, and attack, earth (thus keeping to the orginal threat made in The Rising).

Now - imagine a couple of options we could have here. Let's assume the Wraith find earth - and let's look at two (of dozens) of possibilities. Let's look at what you want, and what I want.

The way you are looking at this ("them or us"), the Wraith would attack earth, and we'd have a repeat of The Siege, with puny humans somehow managing to destroy the attacking Wraith fleet, and - most likely - exterminate all Wraith from the Universe. Ho-hum. Boring as hell. Been there, done that. Same scenario in every single action movie, or sci fi tv show I've ever seen.

Now - look at what I'd like to see...Wraith attack earth. Puny humans fight back, but are losing miserably. Suddenly, without notice - without an invitation - without any inkling that it was going to happen - Another hive (or three) appear on the scene - only they maneuver themselves between earth, and the attacking Wraith. With the help of the 'new' Wraith - those who have accepted feeding on normal food - the humans are able to defeat the attacking enemy fleet. Has such a thing been done before? Certainly - it's a real 7 Samurai sort of thing...the outsiders saving the village. But it's also the sort of formula that makes for more exciting storytelling, and leaves so many possibilities open for the future.

Now, granted - my scenario is a bit simplistic, maybe a bit too cliche as well. But it still makes for better hero/enemy/ally interaction. It gives us reason to root - not just for the good guys, but for the semi-questionable good guys as well. And it certainly would leave things wide open for any individual Wraith, or entire hive, to later return to their old ways of feeding if the script so required it. The Wraith would then remain both a threat, AND an ally...it would just be hard to know which was which from one day to the next. Again - makes for more exciting storytelling.

This is the stuff I want to talk about here - not whether or not the Wraith deserve to die, but HOW the Wraith can be made better, more exciting, and - hopefully - be developed as characters who are as integral to the stories as the main characters are.

So - with that in mind, please...continue to discuss the possibilities for Wraith character development, and hopefully their continued role in the show as both feared enemy, and unlikely - but much appreciated - ally.


das

[ciannwn]

For instance...I have said before (here, elsewhere) that the best solution for a fan such as myself is for the Wraith to find a way to gain nutrition from regular food - but NOT lose their hunger for humans. That way you can have Wraith who chose to survive on normal food and fight their hunger for humans (like an alcoholic resists a drink) because they realize an alliance with humans is more advantageous - in the long run - than feasting upon them.

I think this is a good idea. They are in a very vulnerable position due to their over specialised diet and some of their food animals in Pegasus now have very big guns. We've learned something about the Wraith's version of politics so this would provide an opportunity for exploring the subject in greater depth.

This would be a huge leap for Wraith to take, and would create quite a stir in both their society, and in the galaxy as a whole. It could be seen as an evolution of their species...coming closer to their human form than their iratus bug ancestors.

What I'd like to see is Atlantis personnel regarding Wraith coming closer to human as a wonderful thing. Then they find themselves dealing with things like Pegasus galaxy humans fighting between themselves, Genii mercenaries deciding that they'd like their own little empire and -

Spoiler:

Bola Kai raiding settlements for supplies as they've always done. Teyla's hints that they are cannibals turns out to be true.

This is the stuff I want to talk about here - not whether or not the Wraith deserve to die, but HOW the Wraith can be made better, more exciting, and - hopefully - be developed as characters who are as integral to the stories as the main characters are.

Human opinion on whether or not Wraith deserve to die would have to come into the story if it's to be realistic. Would all Pegasus humans welcome 'food eating Wraith' with open arms and invite them home to tea? What would Ronon think of a 'food eating Wraith' if he learned that the Wraith had come from the Sateda hive which destroyed his people? What if this Wraith had also been involved in hunting runners at one time? If some Wraith worshippers stayed with the 'food eating Wraith' how would other Pegasus humans regard them? How would 'food eating Wraith' deal with a situation where some of their worshippers were killed for being 'traitors' by other humans? After all, if they retaliated they could be breaking a term of any peace treaty they've made with the Tau'ri.

Then there's 'moral values' in relation to Wraith society. They appear to have certain moral values of their own when it comes to things like the 'gift of life'. In 'Common Ground' -

WRAITH: The gift of life is reserved only for our most devout worshippers ... and our brothers.

What does brotherhood mean in Wraith society? Is it a biological relationship or is it a metaphor for Wraith who are members of a particular group which shares similar aims? Do Wraith regard it as immoral to withhold the gift of life to a human who has proved him/herself a devout worshipper?

I'm now going to ask Scyld a question because it does relate to Wraith who ally themselves with the Tau'ri. In order to get along they'll have to become aware of 'human moral values' and will be obliged to go along with them when around humans. This could include Tau'ri back on Earth for some reason or other which would depend on the plot of a future story.

If the Wraith themselves were moral creatures, they would each of them voluntarily starve to death rather than eat human beings.

Which 'human moral values' should the Wraith adopt? Should it be -

1: Those of the Atlantis expedition personnel who eat meat and use other animals in experiments? (The mice in 'Duet').

2: Those of humans who maintain that it is immoral to eat other animals and experiment on them?

Then there's 'moral values' relating to other forms of human behaviour. Some humans insist that sex before marriage is immoral while other humans insist that it's acceptable. Which opinion should Wraith regard as being 'true' where human mating is concerned?

[magneticresonance]

If the Wraith themselves were moral creatures, they would each of them voluntarily starve to death rather than eat human beings.

I have to take issue with the above statement - to my mind, it needs a qualifier: 'if the Wraith themselves were moral creatures according to my definition of morality'. As a moral subjectivist, I don't accept that it's appropriate to force one's personal morality on another human being even within one's own culture, let alone apply it to an entirely different species.

Also - out of interest, are you a vegetarian? As far as the Wraith are concerned, humans are lesser animals, and there's little difference between a Wraith feeding on a human being and a human being feeding on a pig. Of course, we're sentient in a way cattle and other food animals are not, but there's still plenty of room to argue that perhaps sentience, like morality, is relative. But I guess that's a whole other debate. Along with 'would you rather be a human satisfied, or a Wraith dissatisfied?'

[ciannwn]

but there's still plenty of room to argue that perhaps sentience, like morality, is relative. But I guess that's a whole other debate.

'Human moral values' does relate to this topic in a way because Sheppard has had to confront the problem of 'moral values' in several stories.

Spoiler:

1: He let Todd go in 'Common Ground' even though he knew that Todd would have to feed on humans in the future in order to survive.

2: He let a Wraith go in 'Travellers' after the Wraith had given Larrin her life back. As the Wraith had a dart and there was a gate in this solar system there was no indication that he was going to die of starvation on the way back to his hive. Once there he'd be feeding on humans again.

3: 'Miller's Crossing' where Sheppard talked Wallace into 'doing the decent thing' in order to save Jeannie. The 'decent thing' was volunteering to be Todd's lunch.

Could the 'Travellers' Wraith's experience have any bearing on how some Wraith could regard a 'food eating solution' in the future? If Sheppard told them "We won't harm you if you take this option" would a reputation amongst Wraith for keeping his word help them to trust the Atlantis expedition?

[dasNdanger]

I think this is a good idea. They are in a very vulnerable position due to their over specialised diet and some of their food animals in Pegasus now have very big guns. We've learned something about the Wraith's version of politics so this would provide an opportunity for exploring the subject in greater depth.

Exactly. I think it's time to move the Wraith along, and continue to explore their politics, and their society, and their different personalities. To see different factions arise over eating regular food vs humans - to see both in-fighting among the Wraith, and alliances with humans and such - it would all make for good storytelling. 'There is much about Wraith you do not know' - well...let's see what they mean by that.

What I'd like to see is Atlantis personnel regarding Wraith coming closer to human as a wonderful thing. Then they find themselves dealing with things like Pegasus galaxy humans fighting between themselves, Genii mercenaries deciding that they'd like their own little empire and -

Spoiler:

Bola Kai raiding settlements for supplies as they've always done. Teyla's hints that they are cannibals turns out to be true.

Ah, yes. I'd like that sort of thing, too.

Human opinion on whether or not Wraith deserve to die would have to come into the story if it's to be realistic. Would all Pegasus humans welcome 'food eating Wraith' with open arms and invite them home to tea? What would Ronon think of a 'food eating Wraith' if he learned that the Wraith had come from the Sateda hive which destroyed his people? What if this Wraith had also been involved in hunting runners at one time? If some Wraith worshippers stayed with the 'food eating Wraith' how would other Pegasus humans regard them? How would 'food eating Wraith' deal with a situation where some of their worshippers were killed for being 'traitors' by other humans? After all, if they retaliated they could be breaking a term of any peace treaty they've made with the Tau'ri.

See all the possibilities!!! Now - if only TPTB could see them, too! (maybe they have, maybe they haven't - just hoping they HAVE, and will advance the Wraith along in more positive ways.)

And yes - human opinion as to whether Wraith deserve to live or die have to come into consideration - IN SGA. But it's useless to argue it among ourselves, since we live in the real world, and the Wraith do not. I just don't want to continue arguing over the issue since people either think the Wraith should be allowed a chance to live, or they should all die. It's just a waste of energy to argue it at this point.

Then there's 'moral values' in relation to Wraith society. They appear to have certain moral values of their own when it comes to things like the 'gift of life'. In 'Common Ground' -

WRAITH: The gift of life is reserved only for our most devout worshippers ... and our brothers.

What does brotherhood mean in Wraith society? Is it a biological relationship or is it a metaphor for Wraith who are members of a particular group which shares similar aims? Do Wraith regard it as immoral to withhold the gift of life to a human who has proved him/herself a devout worshipper?

See - this is the stuff that I'd like to see more of - Wraith's concept of 'family' - is the hive his family, or what? Do they have loyalty to one another - honor - friendships? What is the males relationship with the Queens? How do the higher Wraith (unmasked) reproduce? Do they have a spirituality? Do they believe in Ascension? I could go on, but so much to learn about them, I can't wait to see what is revealed next (I just hope TPTB find a way for Wraith and humans to co-exist without threat of death hanging over the heads of either species).


das