'Doppelganger' (404) General Discussion

[SGFerrit]

...Keller is just great! If I wasn't a fan of JS already I would so be there now!

...

Carter... she was less annoying then Weir would have been when giving the death/buck up speech to the people of Atlantis. And she was fairly good with McKay (small mercies)...

Agreed on both counts. Keller was great in the episode, Jewel played the part very well. Can't wait to see the Teyla/Keller stuff in Missing and the Rodney/Carter/Keller stuff in Trio!

And the Carter/Mckay 'sibling' rivalry stuff wasn't there AT ALL, Despite the fact that they had scenes together! I feel she is going to fit in well, it seems alot of people's fears about her are not coming to fruition, which I am happy about, as I myself was a bit scared about how she would do in Atlantis.

[OobeDoobBenubi]

I can already picture the TV spots for this episode with them using the whole "McKay is dead" sentence to try & get people going wtf

[Tith]

I never thought Kate's dream was anybody's but Kate's.
Purely because her fear was so much more tangable that Teyla's, and fear was what Evil!Shep seemed to be feeding on.
I am going to have some rather freakey dreams when I finally do go to sleep. I have a childhood thing about dying in dreams. Probably comes from seeing my first Freddy Kreuger movie when I was 7.

[OobeDoobBenubi]

They need to show Ronon in a future episode watching Alien with Sheppard

[Ruffles]

I'm sorry, I just had to touch on this one!

Remember, Teyla's dream starts out "normal," as does all their early dreams. The dreams escalate once we get to Kate's dream, but initially, Teyla and Keller's dreams and even Ronon's to a certain extent start out normal. Each dream escalates until the entity actually kills in Kate's dream. But it is still a dream so as with any dream, things are often mixed up and out of place.

Teyla finds herself back to the beginning, in Rising, where she is in her tent like she was when she first met the expedition members. But then current day John is suddenly there and they are sharing dinner. Then suddenly current day Ronon appears and teases her with a smug grin and flusters her. We are still in normal dream mode here. So analyze that moment however you want, but I would not call it one of her greatest fears!

AFTER this moment, is when her nightmare begins. NOW, John suddenly turns into Evil John, standing directly in front of her and staring at her very intensely. She knows immediately something has changed and her tone goes cautious. The nightmare and her fears unfold from there. Evil John spits out her fears, telling her no one trusts her but him, telling her she hasn't been the same since being in the mind of the wraith queen, then bringing up memories of how her father died, then bringing back memories of Bug John, only this time, Bug John tries to kill her.

These are her worst nightmares, shown after Evil John clearly appears. IMO, to say that one of Teyla's worst fears is Ronon misinterpreting her relationship with John is akin to saying one of Keller's worst fear is being woken up in the middle of the night with an emergency. Both events took place in the dream before the Entity made his presence known.


I absolutely loved this ep! The character moments, the team moments, the intensity, the mood and darkness vying with the scattered humor...everything just came together so well in this one. For an ep with surprisingly minimal CGI, it was very powerful.

Some of my favorite moments:

*Barefoot Lorne!

*The boat scene and the clown!

*The hug!

*Two John's fighting!

The premise is that the entity is manipulating their dreams. Personal opinion is that is evil Shep from the beginning; he just doesn't appear threatening yet. His entire agenda is to cause fear, and everything in her dream does that - Ronon's accusation, McKay's inability to determine the energy readings, Sheppard's accusations, her father calling for her, Wraith darts, bug Shep. It builds certainly, but it's all a reflection of what she fears.

For that matter, is there much that gets your heart beating faster than to be woken up suddenly in the middle of the night like Keller?

I never thought Kate's dream was anybody's but Kate's.
Purely because her fear was so much more tangable that Teyla's, and fear was what Evil!Shep seemed to be feeding on.
I am going to have some rather freakey dreams when I finally do go to sleep. I have a childhood thing about dying in dreams. Probably comes from seeing my first Freddy Kreuger movie when I was 7.

I actually fell for it when I saw Teyla come out on the balcony. I thought it was her dream for a split second. It took me a second to realize it was a diversion.

[g.o.d]

I'm not a big fan of this kind of episodes. Doppleganger was a strange episode, not a bad one, but strange. I liked it, but I was really confused

[LoveConquers]

The premise is that the entity is manipulating their dreams. Personal opinion is that is evil Shep from the beginning; he just doesn't appear threatening yet. His entire agenda is to cause fear, and everything in her dream does that - Ronon's accusation, McKay's inability to determine the energy readings, Sheppard's accusations, her father calling for her, Wraith darts, bug Shep. It builds certainly, but it's all a reflection of what she fears.

For that matter, is there much that gets your heart beating faster than to be woken up suddenly in the middle of the night like Keller?



I actually fell for it when I saw Teyla come out on the balcony. I thought it was her dream for a split second. It took me a second to realize it was a diversion.

Yes, of course the premise is that the entity is manipulating dreams. And yes, it's very possible the entity was there all along. My point was to question why you listed it as one of Teyla's main fears in your original post, not to argue how and when the entity appears. That really becomes moot. My point by mentioning that was simply that the entity didn't manifest himself immediately in the early dreams. It's either "normal" John in the beginning of the dream, as created initially by the dreamer and not the entity and then manipulated by the entity, or it's the entity all along, playing nicely in the beginning. Either way, it's clearly visible when he changes over or makes himself known. And it's clearly visible when the worst fears, the point of the dreams, begin.

Each dream escalates a little faster and a little deadlier each time. Teyla's dream to Keller's dream were fairly similar, Ronon's dream gets to the point a little faster before the entity is even seen, and then Kate's dream starts out in immediate danger, again before we even see the entity. Each one escalates faster and farther.

To say that Teyla's entire dream showed all her literal worst fears in life is not logical as that same argument would have to be applied to Keller's dream as well. By that premise, Keller's worst fear is middle of the night wake-up calls (perhaps startling yes, but hardly the point of what her worst fear is), seeing Teyla curled over in pain, etc. Instead, logically you would take away from that scene that her greatest fears are not the wake-up calls or screaming patients, but her inability to know what to do and to see an "Alien" type situation happen, as she confirmed later on. I don't see the early elements of Keller's dream being used as her worst fears and it doesn't make sense to call them that in Teyla's dream as well.

These are their absolute worst fears being picked up on. I don't see the logic in saying that over the wraith, her father's death, the one person she feels truly trusts her trying to kill her, and her being changed from being in the mind of her greatest enemy, that included in all these horrible things, that she also fears what Ronon thinks of her relationship. Just as I would not see the logic in saying over an alien entity bursting out of a patient's stomach, Keller's other great fear is a middle of the night wake-up call.

I'm sorry, I'm rambling. I guess my point is that I can understand your argument that if the entity was there all along and building up the fears, then yes, he could have been picking up on smaller fears the entire time and building on the level of their fears as well as the dream progressed rather than the early dreams starting out "normally" as I believe. As you said, that is open to personal interpretation most definitely. But what I cannot understand and what I was originally trying to question and understand, is picking out an early element of Teyla's dream as one of the main points of said dream, as you did in your first post, when logically by your own argument, those fears escalate throughout the dream and therefore get progressively worse and seemingly more important.

If we ask JM or anyone involved what Teyla's worst fears in her dream were, can you honestly think they would say Ronon misinterpreting her relationship with John? I think that was hardly the point of her dream, no more than Keller's early fears were the point of hers. Which is why I saw those parts as simply being setups for the start of the entity's manifestation. As I said before, analyze that part of her dream however you want, but I would hardly call it the main point of focus for her fears as you listed it in your first post.

I was totally with you on Kate's dream! I too fell for it for the first few seconds and thought it was another dream from Teyla before quickly realizing it was actually Kate's dream. That was a great diversion on the part of the writer!

[LoveConquers]

They need to show Ronon in a future episode watching Alien with Sheppard

LOL! Most definitely!

[LoveConquers]

The reason the hug was 'painful' is because of the way it is edited. You get to see it twice, from two slghtly different angles. makes it look silly.

And to those who thought it was 'awkward': it's MEANT to be awkward guys, Kate had just died due to Sheppard's 'evil twin'.

The mention of Weir was nice! Seems Torri got her wish

Thank you for saying that! As you can guess, I totally agree.

[LoveConquers]

Teyla was there! Well it is a start, and she looked so upset over Kate (they had a thing no doubt *sh!*) I didn't mind the bug exploding from her... I have never watched Alien... it is all new to me. But um, OK on Teyla and Keller... wouldn't it be known that

Spoiler:

Teyla is pregnant by now if Keller was doing her job??? Seriously? I am not sure I like the idea of drugs being given to a woman that is pregnant. *shrugs* Maybe no blood test/urine sample was called for or whatever... Keller is just taking Teyla's word for it that she is not pregnant. Yeah that works.

You know, I was wondering that as well!

Spoiler:

A simple blood test would show she is pregnant, and I would think it would have been part of her overall exam in this case as well. I'm curious to see in future eps if this was an oversight, or if it means Teyla is not pregnant yet, or if we learn later that Keller finds out from this moment.

Interesting!

[Ruffles]

Yes, of course the premise is that the entity is manipulating dreams. And yes, it's very possible the entity was there all along. My point was to question why you listed it as one of Teyla's main fears in your original post, not to argue how and when the entity appears. That really becomes moot. My point by mentioning that was simply that the entity didn't manifest himself immediately in the early dreams. It's either "normal" John in the beginning of the dream, as created initially by the dreamer and not the entity and then manipulated by the entity, or it's the entity all along, playing nicely in the beginning. Either way, it's clearly visible when he changes over or makes himself known. And it's clearly visible when the worst fears, the point of the dreams, begin.

Each dream escalates a little faster and a little deadlier each time. Teyla's dream to Keller's dream were fairly similar, Ronon's dream gets to the point a little faster before the entity is even seen, and then Kate's dream starts out in immediate danger, again before we even see the entity. Each one escalates faster and farther.

To say that Teyla's entire dream showed all her literal worst fears in life is not logical as that same argument would have to be applied to Keller's dream as well. By that premise, Keller's worst fear is middle of the night wake-up calls (perhaps startling yes, but hardly the point of what her worst fear is), seeing Teyla curled over in pain, etc. Instead, logically you would take away from that scene that her greatest fears are not the wake-up calls or screaming patients, but her inability to know what to do and to see an "Alien" type situation happen, as she confirmed later on. I don't see the early elements of Keller's dream being used as her worst fears and it doesn't make sense to call them that in Teyla's dream as well.

These are their absolute worst fears being picked up on. I don't see the logic in saying that over the wraith, her father's death, the one person she feels truly trusts her trying to kill her, and her being changed from being in the mind of her greatest enemy, that included in all these horrible things, that she also fears what Ronon thinks of her relationship. Just as I would not see the logic in saying over an alien entity bursting out of a patient's stomach, Keller's other great fear is a middle of the night wake-up call.

I'm sorry, I'm rambling. I guess my point is that I can understand your argument that if the entity was there all along and building up the fears, then yes, he could have been picking up on smaller fears the entire time and building on the level of their fears as well as the dream progressed rather than the early dreams starting out "normally" as I believe. As you said, that is open to personal interpretation most definitely. But what I cannot understand and what I was originally trying to question and understand, is picking out an early element of Teyla's dream as one of the main points of said dream, as you did in your first post, when logically by your own argument, those fears escalate throughout the dream and therefore get progressively worse and seemingly more important.

If we ask JM or anyone involved what Teyla's worst fears in her dream were, can you honestly think they would say Ronon misinterpreting her relationship with John? I think that was hardly the point of her dream, no more than Keller's early fears were the point of hers. Which is why I saw those parts as simply being setups for the start of the entity's manifestation. As I said before, analyze that part of her dream however you want, but I would hardly call it the main point of focus for her fears as you listed it in your first post.

I was totally with you on Kate's dream! I too fell for it for the first few seconds and thought it was another dream from Teyla before quickly realizing it was actually Kate's dream. That was a great diversion on the part of the writer!

Ah, I think we are commenting on 2 different things. I was surprised that was one of her fears. I didn't mean to list all of her fears in my original comments - just the ones I found interesting. Of course she would be afraid of Wraith and being mistrusted. Those didn't surprise me. But the fact that the entity's first shot at her would be Ronon commenting on her relationship with John and the ending being bug John feeding on her is what I was fascinated with. I certainly don't think that someone (even Ronon) thinking she was romantically involved with Sheppard is her worst fear. I was surprised to find that it was a fear.

[LoveConquers]

Ah, I think we are commenting on 2 different things. I was surprised that was one of her fears. I didn't mean to list all of her fears in my original comments - just the ones I found interesting. Of course she would be afraid of Wraith and being mistrusted. Those didn't surprise me. But the fact that the entity's first shot at her would be Ronon commenting on her relationship with John and the ending being bug John feeding on her is what I was fascinated with. I certainly don't think that someone (even Ronon) thinking she was romantically involved with Sheppard is her worst fear. I was surprised to find that it was a fear.

Oh thank you for clarifying that! I'm sorry if I seem overly ardent on that point. As a Teyla fan, it bothers me to see some other posts mocking Teyla and saying that is her greatest fear. *rolls eyes* As I said, that was hardly and clearly not the point of her dream! So thank you so much for clarifying!

And that moment is interesting indeed, depending on how you interpret it! For me, I don't see the entity manifesting himself yet at that stage... But I can totally understand and respect both sides in that regard. I can respect any argument, as long as it's based on logic and not emotionally driven.

[Ruffles]

Oh thank you for clarifying that! I'm sorry if I seem overly ardent on that point. As a Teyla fan, it bothers me to see some other posts mocking Teyla and saying that is her greatest fear. *rolls eyes* As I said, that was hardly and clearly not the point of her dream! So thank you so much for clarifying!

And that moment is interesting indeed, depending on how you interpret it! For me, I don't see the entity manifesting himself yet at that stage... But I can totally understand both sides in that regard!

Totally understandable. I, in no way, meant to mock Teyla. I thought this was a strong episode for her. We don't see enough of what she thinks and feels, and I think between her dream and her reaction to Heightmeyer's death we get a good look at who she is. The most fascinating moment for me was when Keller entered Kate's quarters. You could tell from the look on Teyla's face she knew Kate was dead but she says "I can't wake her". Even though she has to have seen a huge amount of death in her life, she reacts like anyone else would - denial over the death of a friend. Her grief is palpable. Very well played by RL.

[prion]

Just out of curiosity, how are so many people seeing the wpisodes before they air? I thought that the US was getting the first half of SGA S4 first this time. Did I miss something?

ALthough it's been answered elsewhere, iTunes inadvertently released Doppelganger instead of Adrift on iTunes as the former had the production number of 401. While iTunes isn't technically at fault - seems MGM(?) must be as JM said SciFi wasn't and there aren't many other players left. It's been a mess, really, as iTunes of course yanked Doppelganger, but not before who knows how many people downloaded it thinking it was Adrift (and while some were happy, others weren't, as they didn't know what was going on). And the iTunes download was for US residents, but appears to have crossed the border/ocean due to sharing I also noticed this morning while doing a quick google blog search that DG is now available on 'leechers' and torrents or whatever, so anybody with knowledge of how to use those systems will no doubt have seen it before "Lifeline" airs this week.

[LoveConquers]

Totally understandable. I, in no way, meant to mock Teyla. I thought this was a strong episode for her. We don't see enough of what she thinks and feels, and I think between her dream and her reaction to Heightmeyer's death we get a good look at who she is. The most fascinating moment for me was when Keller entered Kate's quarters. You could tell from the look on Teyla's face she knew Kate was dead but she says "I can't wake her". Even though she has to have seen a huge amount of death in her life, she reacts like anyone else would - denial over the death of a friend. Her grief is palpable. Very well played by RL.

I really thought that was a powerful line as well. Instead of saying, "She's dead," it's "I can't wake her." Amazing how the wording of a single sentence can carry so much more weight. Kudos to the writer for that line and to RL for playing it out so well!