The Brotherhood (116)

[Bobthespirit]

Another enjoyable episode. I must admit I look forward to Atlantis more than SG-1 these days. It's like the writers actually know where the story is going and lay things out in advance instead of just making it up on the fly...

Ta'kara

Thing about SG1, since season 6 they've had to write every season as if it were the last -- because it might have been. So they can't really do forward planning like they did at the start, and they can't really create any unresolved storylines until the point in development where they know for a fact there will be another season.

So season 8 is like an afterthought of an afterthought. Which is why I'm glad we're getting new fresh characters next season, so they can start actually really having gate missions again.

In Atlantis, since it, unlike the Star Trek spinoffs, is as popular as it's predecessor, they can reasonably assume they will at least have a few seasons so they can work on telling a story without having to worry about having to wrap up the story nice and tidily.

[Easter Lily]

This was a decent episode, but it was mostly predictable. Here is what I learned.

Really, in what way was it mostly predictable?

The Genii are enemies and should be treated as one. They should not be given leniency just because they are human. I don't think anyone would hesitate to kill a Wraith. But its the Genii that are morally despicable, while the Wraith seek food.

Leniency on Sheppard's part is not meant to be a sign of weakness...but an indication to me of his strength of character. He demonstrated grace when Genii showed none. I agree that the Genii are paranoid and self-seeking but at least they can probably be reasoned with on some level...

Spoiler:

wait for The Seige 2...

I somehow don't see anybody ever reasoning with the Wraith... Anyway, Sheppard was clear that he expected something in return for this act of "mercy".

The Genii was a coalition, and it should be expected that humans on a new planet are in league with them. This happened twice now. Humans can not be trusted just because they are human.

Sheppard may be the eternal optimist but I don't think he's quite the fool you think he is... I don't think for one moment that he trusts the Genii... he pulled a few nice ones on the Genii himself with the cloaked ships, in Atlantis and in this particular instance. Hence, there is no evidence that he is trusting them because they are human. But defending Atlantis at this point in time seems to be more on his mind than exacting revenge.

Humans in the Pegasus galaxy lack morality in the sense that they rather steal and deceive instead of cooperate. I get the sense that they don't trust each other and deal with each other only for their own benefit. In this sense they operate like the Goa'uld. No wonder these humans don't stand a chance at defeated the Wraith. Even the brotherhood betrayed the atlantis team and they suppose to be some religious sect. He who can solve the puzzle should earn the right to the ZPM. The new brotherhood did not earn this right, they mislead the altantis team then stole it.

Maybe they do, may be they don't... they certainly haven't been as cooperative as some other planets that SG1 has been to in the past. But perhaps the fact that they are trying so desperately to survive the Wraith for thousands of years has made them lose sight of what we might consider basic human courtesies. I don't like it myself... but I don't think the problem is peculiar to the Pegasus galaxy.
I've watched The Brotherhood a few times now, and I don't remember there being a rule that the person/persons who solve the puzzle can have the ZPM. I wasn't too happy myself when Allina pulled the rug from under the team but in her eyes she was protecting an important religious artifact from falling into the wrong hands. Misguided perhaps but it wasn't without reason. People have done worse things in the name of religion.

McKay cracks under pressure and should not be on the offworld team. There must be another scientist that could do a better job. I am annoyed by his characters attitude already.

Well, McKay is McKay... he whines, he moans and he spouts off but that's the way he is... we can't expect everyone to maintain the same amount of grace under pressure. Actually I also thought he did better than usual (he actually sounded enthusiastic)... but perhaps having a pretty face around helps.

Even with the limited supplies at Atlantis, they still have helped people on other planets. But they have gained little in return. I am sorry to say that there needs to be a stronger military presence in Atlantis. May be then the Genii threat can be dealt with accordingly.

Well, in a perfect universe everything should happen accordingly but this isn't a perfect universe and they are only an exploration team... they had never heard about the Wraith or the Genii and were thus unprepared for any great military threat. However if everything fell into place as neatly as the pieces of a puzzle... the show would be oh, so predictable, don't you think?

[LoneStar1836]

I loved this episode. A little more simplistic story-wise than last week’s “Before I Sleep”, but excellent nonetheless.

“Someone give me a knife. *'yeah right' looks from bad guys* You all have guns. Someone give me a knife.” *snaps fingers* Priceless McKay.

Loved the look of disbelief McKay gave Shep when he mentioned he had taken the Mensa test. For a second he seemed he was more startled about that fact than the situation they were in. Hehe. Knew Shep was more than just a pretty face. The “faking dumb” routine can stay confined to SG-1. Shep is not a carbon copy of O’Neill. Let’s keep it that way.

Great stuff from Dr. Zelenka as always. He gives McKay a run for his money.

Poor Markham. I knew he was going to buy it sometime this season because I was spoiled when I ran across somebody’s sig. even though I have them turned off. But only three people (six if you count Shep and Ford and of course McKay ) that can pilot a PJ? As much as I love Beckett and enjoy any scenes they can squeeze him into, I would have thought they would have been training more people to pilot a PJ.

I kind of figured we weren’t going to make it off the planet with the ZPM when McKay slipped up and told Alina that they weren’t originally from Atlantis. That would have been a little too easy. I wanted to slap her several times for her reasoning for keeping it. I know people have their traditions or religious beliefs, but I still wanted to slap her. But then there’d be no suspense for upcoming episodes as 3 hive ships bear down upon us. Maybe I should blame the Ancients for seemingly posing as gods to these people. What is it with them? Man, they are arrogant, though Janus was cool.

Nice to see Kolya and the Genii again. Thankfully, though I was spared from any more stick fighting practice scenes with him. I just loved the one in The Storm. Can’t wait to see he and Shep face-off again in the future. I’m still going to say I actually find them a more interesting foe than the wraith, but now with three hive ships coming, I may have to change that assessment.

Overall, an enjoyable and entertaining episode even if we didn’t accomplish much other than learn that the imminent danger is even more imminent.

[Mil]

Oh yeah, had only one gripe in the whole episode, no,well, two....

Didn't like seeing Markham just die like that, but that's war for you. Here one minute, in a billion bits the next, so it does add realism and angst to the show.

My gripe (drum roll, please )

Koyla tells Sheppard that he thought Shep was smarter than that, that a bullet wound in the shoulder wouldn't kill a person.

ARGH!!! Obviously Koyla does not know that a bullet wound to the shoulder can kill, can cripple, and even cost an arm if it hits in the right place. Many years ago, a surgeon wrote an article into TV GUIDE to complain about the prolific "It's just a shoulder wound" injuries that were everywhere on TV at that time (this was in the days of Mannix and Matt Dillon, and if you have to ask, you weren't born yet). Anyway, I just cringed at that remark Koyla made. After all, a P-90 isn't a pea-shooter. There's an intersting technical articles on P90s here.

Glad you brought this up. The shoulder shot was something I got into a long fight over concerning the season opener on Alias it’s second season. On that show the mysterious mother of the led character shows up and shoots her daughter in the shoulder. Of course I said that had to be a evil act as you don’t shoot someone in the shoulder if your just trying to wing them and not kill them. After some dispute I found out though spoiler source that the shoulder wound was as the Mannix example above and the writers still thought you could risk shooting someone in the shoulder to wound without killing. I can recall some other examples so Hollywood still has not learned that a shoulder injury can kill.

I would thought the dart shooting down the jumper was unrealistic considering earlier examples of darts shooting jumpers the jumpers had shields. I thought that was unnecessary element to add flash to the episode it would have been more true to the story so far if the dart had shot and maybe damaged the sheilds on that jumper but not destroying it and then just flew by all three as the dart did not need to shoot down anything to accomplish it’s mission.

Over all though I still loved the episode.

[Hex.FTB.enabled]

This ep was kinda the equivelent of a mental shrug. Or maybe, a mental shrug plus. I found it a bit predictable (she was really the spy? no kidding). I think the biggest problem I had was this ep felt like it ended exactly where it started....so what was the point? And can we PLEASE give Teyla something to do other than stating the obvious!? But there was some good stuff. I liked that they kept developing Dr. Zelenka. Ford pretending to be unconscious and then kicking ass was great! And the banter between Shep and Mckay was hilarious as usual. Atlantis has a Mensa chapter. hee. Overall, I looking forward to next week.

[Bastet11191967]

Another great ep in the tradition of the excellent SG-Atlantis Season One!!!

Several things:

1) On the issue of Genii 'arming the Brotherhood' -- I'm not sure...didn't the 'wench' cuss out one of her bretheren for talking to the Genii? I think its another of the 'Stargate Theory of Parallel Planet Development' -- actually a Trek thing, where every other planet seems to have developed similar rifles. I do think that the 'New Brotherhood' had its own agenda, separate from the Genii.

2) The whole 'pull the rug out from under feet' thing at the end, a recurring theme in Atlantis. So far, I think it's not that bad; I like the threads of continuity here and there in each episode and even though this is a recurring theme, it's not overly depressing...there are 3 more gate addresses for ZPM's out there.... As for the 'New Brotherhood's' attitude, I think the best analogy is for some religious fundamentalists--who despite all new information, and even living and using modern techniques, still hold to old traditions and stubborn interpretations of old texts when they no longer make sense.

I enjoyed the storyline, but was disappointed and disgusted with the 'New Brotherhood's' attitude about the ZPM at the end. The attitude of the Genii struck me as narcissistic, blaming the other people and getting defensive when the same flaw is pointed out in them. I think they will be causing the Atlantis team trouble for many years to come.

I think the 'New Brotherhood' and the Genii deserve each other. What a bunch of whack jobs.

[Orrie_104]

A minor nitpick about the puzzle. Did they just implicitly decide to place the corner squares in increasing numerical values? In this simple puzzle of making a 3x3 square with 9 numbers valued 1 through 9 and to get it to add up to 15 horizontally, vertically, and diagonally: the solution can be rotated to produce different solutions. I would have to guess that the most natural way is to put 2 at upper left and then 4 at upper right and 6 and 8 and lower left and right respectively.

I did notice that there are, in fact, many different ways to solve the puzzle. I wonder if different solutions lead to different actions...

I noticed something else, regarding this puzzle, the chamber, and the Brotherhood in general... and I must admit I'm surprised no one else has posted it yet.

The big seal in the chamber, that popped out the ZPM... did anyone else notice that there were *4* other stone circles that looked VERY much like the stone cap on top of the ZPM that popped out? Could there very well be 4 more ZPM's buried in that chamber?

Think about this: the Brotherhood had 15 members: 9 Protectors, 5 Stone Carriers, and one Master Handler. 9 protectors=9 stones? 5 Stone Carriers = 5 ZPM's? Master Handler=guy who activates the pedestal?

Whaddaya think?

~~Orrie

[greytop]

I did notice that there are, in fact, many different ways to solve the puzzle. I wonder if different solutions lead to different actions...

I noticed something else, regarding this puzzle, the chamber, and the Brotherhood in general... and I must admit I'm surprised no one else has posted it yet.

The big seal in the chamber, that popped out the ZPM... did anyone else notice that there were *4* other stone circles that looked VERY much like the stone cap on top of the ZPM that popped out? Could there very well be 4 more ZPM's buried in that chamber?

Think about this: the Brotherhood had 15 members: 9 Protectors, 5 Stone Carriers, and one Master Handler. 9 protectors=9 stones? 5 Stone Carriers = 5 ZPM's? Master Handler=guy who activates the pedestal?

Whaddaya think?

~~Orrie

Really hadn't noticed, but you have a good point.

[Easter Lily]

I did notice that there are, in fact, many different ways to solve the puzzle. I wonder if different solutions lead to different actions...

I noticed something else, regarding this puzzle, the chamber, and the Brotherhood in general... and I must admit I'm surprised no one else has posted it yet.

The big seal in the chamber, that popped out the ZPM... did anyone else notice that there were *4* other stone circles that looked VERY much like the stone cap on top of the ZPM that popped out? Could there very well be 4 more ZPM's buried in that chamber?

Think about this: the Brotherhood had 15 members: 9 Protectors, 5 Stone Carriers, and one Master Handler. 9 protectors=9 stones? 5 Stone Carriers = 5 ZPM's? Master Handler=guy who activates the pedestal?
Whaddaya think?

~~Orrie

Fascinating, Orrie... and I've just had another look... You're right about the stone circles... BUT according to the historical records of the Sudarian(?) people there is no evidence of any other ZPMs... When Rodney was showing the charcoal drawing to the team, he indicated quite strongly that there was one and it was seen to be a religious relic.
It also doesn't explain why the Allina was so anxious to grab just the one and go...
Still you could be right... well done for picking up on it...

[SmartFox]

I did notice that there are, in fact, many different ways to solve the puzzle. I wonder if different solutions lead to different actions...

~~Orrie

It depends on how many lines must be drawn to add up to 15. If they only count the horizontal and vertical there is many different ways. If they count the diagnol then there is only 4 ways.


4 3 8
1 5 9
6 7 2

8 3 4
9 5 1
2 7 6

6 7 2
1 5 9
8 3 4

2 7 6
9 5 1
4 3 8

I noticed something else, regarding this puzzle, the chamber, and the Brotherhood in general... and I must admit I'm surprised no one else has posted it yet.

The big seal in the chamber, that popped out the ZPM... did anyone else notice that there were *4* other stone circles that looked VERY much like the stone cap on top of the ZPM that popped out? Could there very well be 4 more ZPM's buried in that chamber?

Think about this: the Brotherhood had 15 members: 9 Protectors, 5 Stone Carriers, and one Master Handler. 9 protectors=9 stones? 5 Stone Carriers = 5 ZPM's? Master Handler=guy who activates the pedestal?

I was thinking the same thing. What i came to the conclusion is they are therejust to distract you and not allow you to figure out which one the ZPM is hidden in. That brings up another question: what type of defenses do you think they had to stop someone from not solving the puzzle but just tying to pry out the ZPM?

I was really suprised at the end, i knew that the native was going to do something once she found out that Mckay and the others didn't grow up in Alantis but were explores. But i thought they were still going up with the ZPM because i know they contact Earth in LFP. Wonder how they are going to get a ZPM for that ep, ill guess ill just have to wait.

[Orrie_104]

Fascinating, Orrie... and I've just had another look... You're right about the stone circles... BUT according to the historical records of the Sudarian(?) people there is no evidence of any other ZPMs... When Rodney was showing the charcoal drawing to the team, he indicated quite strongly that there was one and it was seen to be a religious relic.
It also doesn't explain why the Allina was so anxious to grab just the one and go...
Still you could be right... well done for picking up on it...

I'm a bit fuzzy as to how the Brotherhood was established... and that chamber in particular. Maybe the Ancients built the big wall symbol and told the Brotherhood one way to access a ZPM, hoping that whoever got the clues figured out would extrapolate the permeutations. The Lanteans knew they were in trouble 10,000 years ago, and perhaps suspected that ZPM technology may be lost.

Regarding the Charcoal rubbing... I'll check again, but was the drawing said to be of the Master Handler holding it, or merely assumed to be the Master Handler?

I hope there are more ZPM's there... because that would be an awesome foreshadowing plot device if they go back there in season 3 or 4.

~~Orrie
*shrug* what do I know, I can't read TPTB's minds...

[6thMonolith]

I just have a small nitpick with this episode. Didnt the Ancients use base eight? I remember from The Fifth Race that O'Neill wrote all over a chalkboard, and at the top put "10=8". Sam figured out that it was base eight, and O'Neill did have the Ancient's Database in his head, so I assume that the Ancients used base eight.

The tiles had the ancient numbers of 1-9 on them, but there is no 8-9 in base eight. After some google searching, I found out that (Base Eight)=(Base Ten)
1=1, 2=2, 3=3, 4=4, 5=5, 6=6, 7=7, 10=8, 11=9. There's no eight, nine, or ten.

SO, if the Ancients used base eight, AND the natives of the planet, who warshiped the Ancients, used base eight also, the stone/small tablets make a bit less sense. Did Rodney see the Ancient number "11" and quickly translate it to 9?

Also, I think that the tiles wouldnt add up correctly, in base 8 to 10. Ok, say that one row, (8+3+4=15) is true in base 10, but thats 10+3+4=17, in base 8, but added in base 10. In base eight, 10=8, so 10+3+4=15. but 15 in base 8 is 13. When you translate the didgets one at a time from base eight and add them, 10=8, 4=4, 3=3, 8+4+3=15. put all that back into base 8 and you have 10+4+3=13. So all the sides would add up to 13, not 15, right?

So basicly, Rodney, Sheppard and Co. Converted quickly in their heads from base 8 to base 10, or the natives to the planet didn't follow suit from the Ancients and used base 10, or the Ancients didnt use base 10, not eight, or O'Neill just wanted a challange when writing the equasion. I've been pondering this, and I still dont quite understand the whole base eight thing. Any thoughts?

[Orrie_104]

I just have a small nitpick with this episode. Didnt the Ancients use base eight? I remember from The Fifth Race that O'Neill wrote all over a chalkboard, and at the top put "10=8". Sam figured out that it was base eight, and O'Neill did have the Ancient's Database in his head, so I assume that the Ancients used base eight.

and

So basicly, Rodney, Sheppard and Co. Converted quickly in their heads from base 8 to base 10, or the natives to the planet didn't follow suit from the Ancients and used base 10, or the Ancients didnt use base 10, not eight, or O'Neill just wanted a challange when writing the equasion. I've been pondering this, and I still dont quite understand the whole base eight thing. Any thoughts?

I've thought a bit about the Base 8 math O'Neill does in "The Fifth Race". Maybe there is some high-level mathematical equations (like the ones he was writing) that are easier to accomplish in Base 8 than in Base 10?

Or maybe it was a branch of mathematics that the Asgard invented? I think they only have 4 fingers per hand...

~~Orrie
Still trying to figure out all the forum quirks...

[Hex.FTB.enabled]

all you math people are giving me a headache....

[6thMonolith]

Or maybe it was a branch of mathematics that the Asgard invented? I think they only have 4 fingers per hand...

hmmmm... I know that we use base 2 for computers, but I still have no idea what base 8 is for, but I found this page http://www.psinvention.com/zoetic/base8.htm , which helps some, if I read it right.

As for the Asgard thing, I heard that the Aztecs(or was it the Mayas?) used base 20, which makes sense, because of the number of fingers and toes. Maybe base 8 is the Asguard system...