John Sheppard Whump

[Easter Lily]

Okay... this is a somewhat serious question... but do you think that Sheppard's desire to read War and Peace shows that he has a morbid sense of what constitute a leisure time activity or that he is a glutton for punishment. Is it not enough that he is trashed physically but feels the need to be whacked around the head with lengthy descriptions of places and events...?

Still, he could just be a closet literary genius too...

[emily_reich]

ooh! excellent question e lily!!!

well, if he IS a literary genious, and he's ALSO the math genious we know he is, methinks there's some kind of ancient brilliance going on there *random plug of wild theory*

but hmmm... well we know he hasn't read much of it... maybe a he says in home about not wanting to go home yet cuz he hasn't even finished his book is actually in some sense true!... not to mention the part about being there for a long time... i mean, does anyone else get the sense he decided to go PLANNING to never return?? as if he knew that one way of another this would be a one-way trip for him?? perhaps he wants it to be??

maybe going to atlantis originally was a great way to escape his past and, under a non-military leader, basically start anew.... and then never have to go back...

just a thought, but, well... if it's true, is there stuff really that terrible that's happened to him?? or did he think he wasn't gonna make it?? i mean, in LFP he says that he's spent his life learning how to survive but then in the same episode says that they could be doing a lot, except that it'd be the last thing they ever did... i thought this said a LOT about his state of mind...

he wants to be able to save everyone, but know he'll die if he tries... maybe he feels he HAS to die to save anyone... he DOES almost get taken by the dart in that same episode... and this would really tie in to how willing he is do go on the suicide mission in siege 2... perhaps he still feels that since he woke up the wraith and caused all this death in the galaxy that the only way he can save people is to die doing it....

just some random 1:00am ramblings

[knocknashee]

ooh! excellent question e lily!!!

well, if he IS a literary genious, and he's ALSO the math genious we know he is, methinks there's some kind of ancient brilliance going on there *random plug of wild theory*

but hmmm... well we know he hasn't read much of it... maybe a he says in home about not wanting to go home yet cuz he hasn't even finished his book is actually in some sense true!... not to mention the part about being there for a long time... i mean, does anyone else get the sense he decided to go PLANNING to never return?? as if he knew that one way of another this would be a one-way trip for him?? perhaps he wants it to be??

maybe going to atlantis originally was a great way to escape his past and, under a non-military leader, basically start anew.... and then never have to go back...

just a thought, but, well... if it's true, is there stuff really that terrible that's happened to him?? or did he think he wasn't gonna make it?? i mean, in LFP he says that he's spent his life learning how to survive but then in the same episode says that they could be doing a lot, except that it'd be the last thing they ever did... i thought this said a LOT about his state of mind...

he wants to be able to save everyone, but know he'll die if he tries... maybe he feels he HAS to die to save anyone... he DOES almost get taken by the dart in that same episode... and this would really tie in to how willing he is do go on the suicide mission in siege 2... perhaps he still feels that since he woke up the wraith and caused all this death in the galaxy that the only way he can save people is to die doing it....

just some random 1:00am ramblings

Those are some pretty profound 1am random ramblings Ems...I tend to be verging on comatose by that time...

I sort of get the impression he went hoping not to return to Earth and he does seem a bit hell-bent on killing himself towards the end of the season. It's almost like he feels he has nothing to really live for in a way.

[Zelazny]

Those are some pretty profound 1am random ramblings Ems...I tend to be verging on comatose by that time...

I sort of get the impression he went hoping not to return to Earth and he does seem a bit hell-bent on killing himself towards the end of the season. It's almost like he feels he has nothing to really live for in a way.

Maybe he's thinking: Well, Atlantis has their new military leader(Col. Everett), what use am I now?

Perhaps he thinks the only way he could be of use now is to give his life to save Atlantis and his people. And to make up for the death he caused when he woke the Wraith. A pretty self-deprecating frame of mind for Shep, but you never know...

[emily_reich]

good point... he's really stuck around because he knows they need him for something... i think the tiny scene where he hands everett the little life signs detector and says you need the gene to make it work is actually REALLY important... the look on his face says he realizes that not only is there a new military leader here, but this guy (and half his team) has the ancient gene too...

i mean, at first you see shep being brought SOLELY for his genes... i mean, how's he got to feel right there, just knowing the only reason anyone gives a care about him coming either way is for his GENES and the fact that he can operate a certain kind of technology... but then when sumner dies, you get this conflicting thing going on for shep i think... he feels worse and worse over the course of the season about waking up the wraith and all the death that's caused... but i think he also feels better at first knowing he's NEEDED for something, namely a military leader... that is, until he realizes, as he even says cryptically in LFP, what the burden of a leader is and how hard it is to be in the position....

so, basically, i think we have shep here probably already worried about being a a terrible leader, remembering that he's already woken up the wraith! but also knowing that atlantis needs him as that leader and also for his genes still..

ok, now i can get SORTA to a point here.... basically you see SOOOO prevalently in siege 2 JUST how badly he just wants OUT i think... cuz i think just when he's starting to really think that they're in this situation now where he might really be needed for his LEADERSHIP and not just his genes, in comes everett and not ONLY does his voice as military leader of the base basically become useless beyond getting weir into the meeting (probably because everett hates him for killing sumner), but he turns into the go-to ancient gene guy and gets relegated to "the chair" throughout... as that's the ONLY thing that he can do but no one else really can (since everyone new can now even operate all the other ancient tech)... and then eventually the chair doesn't even work and as far as the new leader is concerned, i think he might as well be useless, and i think he feels that too

i really think THIS is why, even after all those bad times where he's stuck it out and those times where he HASN'T gone and done something because it was too dangerous since he KNEW they still needed him, he goes on THIS suicide mission... the fact that he says "i have to and you know it" says so much i think! not only is it the only way to carry out their plan, but it's the only way HE can do something to save them, as he's otherwise become useless now that the chair is down... it's the ONE thing left that he is the best at, and that's what the "you know it" is for... he knows that weir knows that this is the only thing left for him to do and also if this mission is going to work or do anything he's the one who should be doing it... and then he in turn feels he HAS to in order to make up for the death he's caused (and he can FINALLY do something!!)

bsaically, long story short: shep stayed on board and didn't go suicidal throughout the season because he KNEW they needed him not ONLY for his ancient genes, but also as a military leader... but once all of that went away except for the chair, you can see in his eyes that he's just barely holding everything in... and then when that last thing, the chair, finally breaks down too, he IMMEDIATELY decides he has to go on that suicide mission.... coincidence??? me no think so...

[Merlin7]

Interesting thoughts Em. I see Shep at the end of his rope in a sense by SIEGE. I don't see him as suicidal at any point though. I think he's worn out. I think he feels guilty. I think he wishes Sumner was alive for so many reasons. But my sense as he was flying off at the end of SIEGE 2 and about to go in was that he didn't want to die. You could see he was scared ::hugs woobie::

I think he wishes he could do this with the Jumper and survive and go back to Atlantis and keep fighting till the Wraith were defeated. I think he hates the thought of leaving the others to fight without him.

Purely my thoughts.

When Everett asked if he was volunteering for a suicide mission Shep was like, "It won't be suicide if McKay adn Zalenka can come up with a remote system" Or however the dialogue went.

I don't think he feels he was just the GENE guy after Everett came either. oddly enough, I think Shep got excited at the fact they now had a chance to defend Atlantis. And he was the reason they did the stuff they did. SHEP suggested saving some of the mines <Everett vetoed> BAD IDEA.

Shep came up with the idea of the Jumpers flying and of where to get the A bombs. He was IDEA MAN. And he totally was useful in all other areas to, really.

I think Shep is gonna hate the new system in the beginning, yet a part of him will be relieved. But Shep is a doer. And his thing is doing what he thinks is the right thing to do. He'll have a problem doing that with the new guy around and that's gonna make for great conflict.

[emily_reich]

Interesting thoughts Em. I see Shep at the end of his rope in a sense by SIEGE. I don't see him as suicidal at any point though. I think he's worn out. I think he feels guilty. I think he wishes Sumner was alive for so many reasons. But my sense as he was flying off at the end of SIEGE 2 and about to go in was that he didn't want to die. You could see he was scared ::hugs woobie::

yes, i agree... i was definately scared... but yet very determined to go in and kill the wraith, not REALLY seeming to care if he dies, possibly thinking that if he dies saving atlantis he will have made up for waking up the wraith, at least in some small part (the whole "we saved a few... that's worth something" attitude picked up from LFP perhaps??)

I think he wishes he could do this with the Jumper and survive and go back to Atlantis and keep fighting till the Wraith were defeated. I think he hates the thought of leaving the others to fight without him.

Purely my thoughts.

don't worry.... me loves a good debate

well as i rewatched the ep (just now ) i noticed when he says "hopefully if this works the other one will back off" or something quite similar, he's almost trying to convince himself... as if he's telling himself "it's ok if i die because this WILL work and atlantis WILL be safe... really... it's true" cuz he didn't sound QUITE convinced about it...

When Everett asked if he was volunteering for a suicide mission Shep was like, "It won't be suicide if McKay adn Zalenka can come up with a remote system" Or however the dialogue went.

"it won't be a suicide mission if mckay and zelenka can find a way to remote control the jumpers"

yes, true... but methinks that with everything happening he STILL didn't expect to survive, in one way or another, even if they had managed to make the remote control work...

I don't think he feels he was just the GENE guy after Everett came either. oddly enough, I think Shep got excited at the fact they now had a chance to defend Atlantis. And he was the reason they did the stuff they did. SHEP suggested saving some of the mines <Everett vetoed> BAD IDEA.

Shep came up with the idea of the Jumpers flying and of where to get the A bombs. He was IDEA MAN. And he totally was useful in all other areas to, really.

see, everett didn't even LISTEN to him or care what he said, though, UNTIL the bombs were destroyed and everett had nothing left to go on... shep was the last resort... yes, of course his idea was a good one, and they got the nuke, and if the generator had had enough power, the remote control plan would have worked... BUT fact is EVERETT basically dropped him down to the lowest level possible as second-in-command, becoming the go-to ancient-gene chair operator... probably because he hates him so much for killing sumner...

I think Shep is gonna hate the new system in the beginning, yet a part of him will be relieved. But Shep is a doer. And his thing is doing what he thinks is the right thing to do. He'll have a problem doing that with the new guy around and that's gonna make for great conflict.

well is everett still alive even?? i say he died... but, well... i guess we don't know for SURE...

i agree shep is relieved that he doesn't have to be the main leader anymore... but obviously i think he's relieved in a different way than you do what can i say... *emotional sadist*

[Shep'sSocks]

There's a fic where Shep tells Weir that he's tired and she promptly slaps him about the head saying that she's tired, too, that everyone's tired. The difference is, I think, that he doesn't seem to talk about it or internalises it, which is why (IMO) by the end of the season that he seems so weary.

I agree with Merlin7 that he's not suicidal. A suicide mission isn't actually about suicide. The name is given because the person who goes on it doesn't expect to come back. That doesn't mean that person won't do everything to come back. I just don't think he would see another way to get the puddlejumper up in the air after Rodney couldn't get the chair working.

[emily_reich]

There's a fic where Shep tells Weir that he's tired and she promptly slaps him about the head saying that she's tired, too, that everyone's tired. The difference is, I think, that he doesn't seem to talk about it or internalises it, which is why (IMO) by the end of the season that he seems so weary.

yes, definately... he's been holding EVERYTHING in... and honestly, he's carrying so much more burden than i think ANYONE else is, including weir... i mean, he's woken up the wraith AND had to personally witness the destruction caused by that, he shot sumner, he's made some choices that maybe weren't so great... plus there's the whole issue with the ancient genes... a lot of pressure gets put on him, both at the very beginning and the very end, because of those darn genes, and i think being chosen solely for that purpose then having all this extra stuff thrust upon him REALLY adds up to so much more than anyone else in atlantis has to carry...

and add that to him bottling it up and trying to act friendly and happy on the outside and you've got one tortured shep...

I agree with Merlin7 that he's not suicidal. A suicide mission isn't actually about suicide. The name is given because the person who goes on it doesn't expect to come back. That doesn't mean that person won't do everything to come back. I just don't think he would see another way to get the puddlejumper up in the air after Rodney couldn't get the chair working.

well of course suicide missions aren't all about suicide, but i think in this case shep has so much NOT going for him, and if the wraith ships aren't destroyed he WILL have nothing going for him in all likelihood, that he doesn't MIND dying to save atlantis or even feels he SHOULD die to save atlantis, whether that's because it was his idea and he thinks it should be him, or because he knows he's the only one who can....

for whatever reason, i think he's WAY too willing to die or this mission... and i think it'll take some kind of shock in some form or another to make him realize that there could be anykind of alternate plan that DOESN'T involve him dying...

but then, like i said... *iz emotional sadist*

[Merlin7]

I think Sheppard has been through more than anyone. Rodney is dealing with Gaul's death and Grodin's. But outside that he's just got the general stuff they all have. Wraith coming. Finding the way to save them, stuff. Sheppard has waking the Wraith. Coming to a place not having a clue what to expect where everyone else at least knew about stargates and what might happen. He never intended to be in charge and had to adapt to that. The guilt of Sumner and waking the Wraith. I don't care that he's a soldier, killing all those HUMAN Genii had to affect him and he was affected by Steve's death, being a bit over the edge and killing Bob. He's been stunned several times. Nearly killed by Bob. Faced death in HOT ZONE and so on and so on.

No one has been through what he has. The other's have all shown it and talked about it and probably most of them have been to see Kate. I bet as leader Weir sure has. And rightfully so.

Weir has shown her doubts and fears with Shep. Her insecurities. Rodney shouts them for the world. Teyla showed them in LFP and GIFT. Hot Zone showed Ford's fear of dying and how he treats Beckett in certain circumstances show's his insecurities. SHEP internalizes everything.

I love the little moments Joe gives us with Shep. Like in Brotherhood. He was scared. Thought he was gonna die. Managed to keep his cool to come up with the ANSWER to save his own life and that shudder and exhale of relief when it was over and he was alive was so telling.

I really ache for Shep and hope we see him break down a bit at some point. It has to hit him hard eventually.

[Shep'sSocks]

Some of this stuff should be crossposted to the discussion thread cos it's more that than whumping really. Some good stuff.

[Zelazny]

Weir has shown her doubts and fears with Shep. Her insecurities. Rodney shouts them for the world. Teyla showed them in LFP and GIFT. Hot Zone showed Ford's fear of dying and how he treats Beckett in certain circumstances show's his insecurities. SHEP internalizes everything.

Not to mention Rodney said the video he did was very therapeutic. He did use an entire tape just talking about wherever his mind took him. And I thought LFP was a "telling" episode for Shep. Here everyone is sending videos home, and he had no intention of making one. Then Weir had him make the video telling of Col. Sumner's death. She said she thought no one else should do it. Personally, I didn't like that she forced Shep to make it. It almost came across as: "Hey, you killed him. You tell everyone back home why he's dead." It did give us, the audience, a bit of insight into Shep and how he felt about Sumner's death and his forced role of Military leader, though. Talking is supposed to help a person cope with traumatic events, but what Shep had to do in LFP wasn't helping him. With McKay, he wasn't talking about traumatic things for the most part when he rambled his tape. I think it was just talking to talk that helped him, since everyone is always telling him to shut up. But with Shep's video, it was just him and the camera, and I think it further hurt him instead of helped him, because he didn't have a person there listening to contradict the negative and self-deprecating comments he made. I mean, I seriously doubt Ford was there filming it. I think Shep did that video alone.

Just my little thoughts...

[Liv]

Then Weir had him make the video telling of Col. Sumner's death. She said she thought no one else should do it. Personally, I didn't like that she forced Shep to make it. It almost came across as: "Hey, you killed him. You tell everyone back home why he's dead."

I never saw it as her forcing him to record that message, at all. I thought she was quite gentle and that she presented it as more of a question or a suggestion, than anything else. ("But there's one in particular, I thought maybe you'd like to do for yourself"). I thought she showed understanding and compassion, not callousness.

But with Shep's video, it was just him and the camera, and I think it further hurt him instead of helped him, because he didn't have a person there listening to contradict the negative and self-deprecating comments he made. I mean, I seriously doubt Ford was there filming it. I think Shep did that video alone.

Well, Ford was there at the beginning, at least. ("Okay, whenever you're ready, Sir. Go ahead.") I suppose it's possible that he stepped out and let Shep record his message in private. Although, IIRC, he stayed in the room the entire time that Weir recorded her messages to the families of the ones they had lost, so I think that Ford was in the room with Shep, too.

Now for that second message, on the other hand...

[emily_reich]

I never saw it as her forcing him to record that message, at all. I thought she was quite gentle and that she presented it as more of a question or a suggestion, than anything else. ("But there's one in particular, I thought maybe you'd like to do for yourself"). I thought she showed understanding and compassion, not callousness.

well i agree she was being kind about it and i don't think it was MEANT as an order, but i think he took it as an order anyway... plus if he said no to that, perhaps he was worried HE'D look like the callous one...

Well, Ford was there at the beginning, at least. ("Okay, whenever you're ready, Sir. Go ahead.") I suppose it's possible that he stepped out and let Shep record his message in private. Although, IIRC, he stayed in the room the entire time that Weir recorded her messages to the families of the ones they had lost, so I think that Ford was in the room with Shep, too.

yeah... i doubt ford would have left... which is quite possibly the main reason why shep stayed very subtle... he might have let out at least a LITTLE bit more of his feelings than he did.... only we fans LOOKING for that emotion and his hidden meaning really would see that he's talking about himself more than sumner... he probably knew what he was saying wouldn't clue ford into what he was feeling...

Now for that second message, on the other hand...

ah yes! methinks he was definately alone... he was in his own room, after all...

and i REALLY wanna know who that message was for!!!

[Shep'sSocks]

I'm of the no second message opinion. I just think he shifted his feet so the poster came into view.

I never saw it as her forcing him to record that message, at all. I thought she was quite gentle and that she presented it as more of a question or a suggestion, than anything else. ("But there's one in particular, I thought maybe you'd like to do for yourself"). I thought she showed understanding and compassion, not callousness.

Perhaps not callousness but it was rather pointed, I thought. As though she was conferring a great treat on him. He clearly didn't want to do it.