Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Does everyone else really eat dinner this early?

I usually don't eat until another 2 hours.

I do!

Dinner time? Pfft... its lunchtime here! Got a lovely basil pesto pasta leftover dish... yumyum!

Mmmm, yummy! I had pasta too, with a tomato-sausage sauce and spinach with mozzarella cheese and baked. Was yummies!

[yunadax]

I do!



Mmmm, yummy! I had pasta too, with a tomato-sausage sauce and spinach with mozzarella cheese and baked. Was yummies!

You lot are makin me hungry.. again! Heaven forbid if I ever fall pregnant there won't be enough food around to keep me full.. darned fast metabolism.

[Scary Kitty]

You lot are makin me hungry.. again! Heaven forbid if I ever fall pregnant there won't be enough food around to keep me full.. darned fast metabolism.

LOL!

[Irish Eyes]

The mention of Before I Sleep raised a question in my mind. In the episode, Elizabeth is faced with the question of: "Do I save Atlantis or do I save myself?" It really wasn't about saving the future expedition because they would have sent a malp through first, known it wasn't safe, and never come through the stargate. No, this was only about the city and she gave up her life to save it. My question is, would any of the other characters do the same?

John: Yes. I think most of his suicidal missions have been about saving both the city and the expedition, but I could see him doing it just for the city.

Ronon: No. He's seen so much death and destruction that IMO he would think it's more important to live to fight another day.

Teyla: No. She has her son to think of now.

Rodney: No. He would think it wasn't worth losing him.

The rest of the expedition, Carson, Ford, Radek, etc.: Again, no.

It's not that I don't think they're all brave enough to sacrifice themselves because I do, especially if they would be saving the other members of the expedition. But if it's JUST the city they are saving, John and Elizabeth are the ones I see with the emotional connection to the city.

One more reason why J/E understand each other so well.

[Anuna]

The mention of Before I Sleep raised a question in my mind. In the episode, Elizabeth is faced with the question of: "Do I save Atlantis or do I save myself?" It really wasn't about saving the future expedition because they would have sent a malp through first, known it wasn't safe, and never come through the stargate. No, this was only about the city and she gave up her life to save it. My question is, would any of the other characters do the same?

John: Yes. I think most of his suicidal missions have been about saving both the city and the expedition, but I could see him doing it just for the city.

Ronon: No. He's seen so much death and destruction that IMO he would think it's more important to live to fight another day.

Teyla: No. She has her son to think of now.

Rodney: No. He would think it wasn't worth losing him.

The rest of the expedition, Carson, Ford, Radek, etc.: Again, no.

It's not that I don't think they're all brave enough to sacrifice themselves because I do, especially if they would be saving the other members of the expedition. But if it's JUST the city they are saving, John and Elizabeth are the ones I see with the emotional connection to the city.

One more reason why J/E understand each other so well.

And yet another thing that unites them! I love the point you made. I think the two of them connected to the city in a way other characters didn't.

[Scary Kitty]

The mention of Before I Sleep raised a question in my mind. In the episode, Elizabeth is faced with the question of: "Do I save Atlantis or do I save myself?" It really wasn't about saving the future expedition because they would have sent a malp through first, known it wasn't safe, and never come through the stargate. No, this was only about the city and she gave up her life to save it. My question is, would any of the other characters do the same?

John: Yes. I think most of his suicidal missions have been about saving both the city and the expedition, but I could see him doing it just for the city.

Ronon: No. He's seen so much death and destruction that IMO he would think it's more important to live to fight another day.

Teyla: No. She has her son to think of now.

Rodney: No. He would think it wasn't worth losing him.

The rest of the expedition, Carson, Ford, Radek, etc.: Again, no.

It's not that I don't think they're all brave enough to sacrifice themselves because I do, especially if they would be saving the other members of the expedition. But if it's JUST the city they are saving, John and Elizabeth are the ones I see with the emotional connection to the city.

One more reason why J/E understand each other so well.

Damn! I'm with Anuna; that is an awesome link between the two I hadn't thought of before.

There's the old saying 'home is where the heart is', and Atlantis has truly become home to Elizabeth and John on so many levels. It also ties in very well with how the two of them never really readjusted to life back on Earth in The Return Part 1. They know where they really belong.

[gateraid]

Something very strange happened on the poll for TRW. Look here and then look at CG here. Notice in particular the number of votes. At the time there was speculation that the TRW poll and the CG poll somehow became corrupted. As far as I know, the mystery was never solved. But to the delight of the Weir haters, TRW ended up with a very low rating.

Now hopefully, TPTB didn't pay any attention to that.

Weird. I could see TRW as a bad ep if you didn't like Weir. Not only is it extremely Weir focused, it doesn't even take place on Atlantis. Not to mention it has a very different feel to most Atlantis eps. Guess it just goes to show GW polls (and polls in general) shouldn't be trusted.

Yup, that DC. omg I haven't been on a plane in forever though and I'm actually a bit terrified



I was spiffy with Atlantis being blown up. I just wasn't happy with what they did to Weir afterwards.

I'd have been fine with it, if it had gone something like:

We're not leaving without you
Okay
runs

Are you talking about TRW? Actually, the desicion to get rid of Elizabeth was made after FS from what I heard. She was supposed to return to her position as leader right after the Adrift/Lifeline episodes. But something changed that. I do think part of it is Samantha Carter

Yes, in terms of filming the decision was made (or at least, they told her) after FS had been completed. As i understood it, that was around the time that TRW/CG were airing. But i'm not in the US

I wish more episodes were loosely connected like NML/Misbegotten were. It gives it a more serialized feeling.

That requires planning and foresight. Nuff said

I proposed that Carson has more reason to go off-world than Rodney and how Rodney shouldn't be going offworld so often from our little discussion we had a few months back in the general discussion area. It looks to have mixed review, mostly negative.

Carson should go more, Rodney definitely less in order to be plausible. That said, Teyla and Ronon should occasionally go with other teams, and sometimes Sheppard should not go at all (like maybe once a season) given that most of his duties would be behind a desk

SG1 had one full blown crossover while SGA has tons of little half-crossovers and mentions so it adds up that SG1 is forced more on SGA than vice versa. The only SGA crossovers other than Pegasus Project in SG1 after Atlantis had begun airing were The Road Not Taken (Rodney and Lorne and that was an AU.)

^ considerably more succinct than what I said

I don't really consider Weir and McKay SG1 characters because they had their making on Atlantis. Sam Carter on the other hand is definatly an SG1 character. I don't know about Woolsey.

Woolsey is half and half to me. He has had some pretty important stuff to do on SG1, right through into s10, but that was a while ago now.

Good morning, Sparkies!



That is curious, isn't it? I also found this page with a summary of the ratings for Season 3.

TRW got a fan rating of 6.70, a GW rating of 3 stars, the first airing on SciFi got a Live + Same Day Nielsen rating of 1.8, and the first run in broadcast syndication got a 0.7.

CG got a fan rating of 8.89, a GW rating of 2 1/2 stars, the first airing on SciFi got a Live + Same Day Nielsen rating of 1.6, and there's no info on the ratings for the first run in broadcast syndication.

So let's see: The GW rating and Nielsen ratings for the first run on SciFi were better for TRW than for CG. Yet CG did better in the fan poll? Ballot box stuffing, indeed.

Ratings > GW poll, surely?

god, ppl go and watch THIS video .. its FRIKIN AWESOME!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IET6vOBnT0Q

I like this one. Yeah, its a bit out there, but isn't that what crack is about? Obviously we are not meant to take it seriously.

Wow! *huggles*



You and me both. What they did to her is a crime against humanity.



As do I. TPTW can deny it all they want, but we know the truth.

Hmm, I seem to recall reading a comment by Martin Gero (who wrote FS) that he was just as taken by surprise by the decision to axe Weir as the rest of us were; he'd been expecting her to be brought back too.

It was my impression that he wasn't aware of it when he wrote FS, so Weir eating glass was rather fortuitous as a story opportunity

Weir and McKay were introduced on SG-1; Weir, I think, was intended for Atlantis all along, but McKay wasn't originally supposed to go to Atlantis. They had another "scientist" character slated for the show, then realized they could use McKay instead. Woolsey was another character originally created for SG-1 who wound up with a bigger role on Atlantis more or less by accident.

Yeah, so much so that they didn't make up their mind until the last minute

Ah, okay. It may have been from very early on, before I joined GW.



Definitely. And that band-like decoration across the chest seems to kinda sorta echo the old Atlantis uniforms' colored chest panels. As if this new jacket was meant to be a subtle blending of the two.



I like that idea! I'm sure the actual jacket Torri wore was made for her, but the way the details on it are so similar to those of the new uniforms does suggest that the design of the Repli!Weir jacket could've originated as an early alternate design idea for the new uniforms, and was resurrected to be used for the jacket.



Yeah, they really gorged on the leather that year. Not always successfully.

As much as I hate to comment on clothing, it is very similar to a Hallensteins jacket that came out a few years back (Hallensteins is probably the NZ equivalent of The Gap).

[KrisRussel]

Damn! I'm with Anuna; that is an awesome link between the two I hadn't thought of before.

There's the old saying 'home is where the heart is', and Atlantis has truly become home to Elizabeth and John on so many levels. It also ties in very well with how the two of them never really readjusted to life back on Earth in The Return Part 1. They know where they really belong.

I also agree. Atlantis truly has become the home neither of them really had. John because of his screwed up family and missions abroad and Liz because of her diplomatic duties abroad.
You can already clearly see that they're so glad they're returning to Atlantis in 'The Intruder' and that's just at the start of s2.
Also in Home, John saying: "Let's go home." at the end. It also signifies a lot.

I'd have been fine with it, if it had gone something like:

We're not leaving without you
Okay
runs

ROFL!! So true... and not really hard to accomplish you know... all you have to do is... RUN!!

Carson should go more, Rodney definitely less in order to be plausible. That said, Teyla and Ronon should occasionally go with other teams, and sometimes Sheppard should not go at all (like maybe once a season) given that most of his duties would be behind a desk

Hehe, true
To be the head of the military of an intergalactic expedition, he doesn't have a lot of administrative duties, does he?
But then again, there's not much excitement when you see the main lead sitting behind a desk all day... hmmm... sorta reminds me of Elizabeth...

[Southern Red]

You lot are makin me hungry.. again! Heaven forbid if I ever fall pregnant there won't be enough food around to keep me full.. darned fast metabolism.

You will be glad for that metabolism when you're older. Most of my friends weigh a lot more than I do because my previously high metabolism has only slowed a little. I was a twig most of my life and now that I'm older and have gained a bit I'm just a normal size. Of course, I can't eat as much as I used to but it still works out.

The mention of Before I Sleep raised a question in my mind. In the episode, Elizabeth is faced with the question of: "Do I save Atlantis or do I save myself?" It really wasn't about saving the future expedition because they would have sent a malp through first, known it wasn't safe, and never come through the stargate. No, this was only about the city and she gave up her life to save it. My question is, would any of the other characters do the same?

John: Yes. I think most of his suicidal missions have been about saving both the city and the expedition, but I could see him doing it just for the city.

Ronon: No. He's seen so much death and destruction that IMO he would think it's more important to live to fight another day.

Teyla: No. She has her son to think of now.

Rodney: No. He would think it wasn't worth losing him.

The rest of the expedition, Carson, Ford, Radek, etc.: Again, no.

It's not that I don't think they're all brave enough to sacrifice themselves because I do, especially if they would be saving the other members of the expedition. But if it's JUST the city they are saving, John and Elizabeth are the ones I see with the emotional connection to the city.

One more reason why J/E understand each other so well.

ITA with this and I'd also add that they seem to have dropped the idea of Atlantis as home in S4-5. Remember in EatG when

Spoiler:

Carter said "Atlantis is coming home". They portrayed that as such a pivotal moment And then when they are all gazing fondly at the GG Bridge, I couldn't help but wonder if they were happy to be there.

With the loss of Elizabeth it seems like the Atlantis as home theme was lost as well. The question remains, does the Pegasus Galaxy feel like home now to John? She's still there but not really. How does he feel?

In a recent discussion on someone's LJ we speculated on whether Elizabeth is the heart of Atlantis. Some of us saw it as the city she was the heart of and others were thinking about the actual expedition. It was interesting and also amusing since the person who did the original poll was hoping for a negative reaction, being a Weir hater. Someone who was very negative toward her confessed that she never rewatched BIS and had all her facts wrong about what actually happened in the ep. She thought Elizabeth chose to stay with the Ancients instead of returning to the city. WTF? If you don't understand BIS, you have no idea of what she is all about. Then how can you hate her...oh wait. Needless to say the discussion didn't last long. LOL

[Eri13]

Biff? Whut's biff? I'm sorry I've failed you gateraid!!! *bows*

Good morning, Sparkies!

That is curious, isn't it? I also found this page with a summary of the ratings for Season 3.

TRW got a fan rating of 6.70, a GW rating of 3 stars, the first airing on SciFi got a Live + Same Day Nielsen rating of 1.8, and the first run in broadcast syndication got a 0.7.

CG got a fan rating of 8.89, a GW rating of 2 1/2 stars, the first airing on SciFi got a Live + Same Day Nielsen rating of 1.6, and there's no info on the ratings for the first run in broadcast syndication.

So let's see: The GW rating and Nielsen ratings for the first run on SciFi were better for TRW than for CG. Yet CG did better in the fan poll? Ballot box stuffing, indeed.

I once asked this question of our ratings guru Briangate78,who explained--TRW did indeed have the highest ratings of the season--but it was also preceded by the 200th episode of SG-1. Working in the TV biz meself, you learn not to discount lead-ins. In the case of TRW, it was boosted a bit because of SG-1.

Regardless I don't think it would have pulled a below-average rating.

Hmmm. From my understanding, at the start of S4 Torri/Weir was only only supposed to be in three episodes but then soon after a fourth episode was tacked on (BASMR), possibly because of fan reaction.

Hee, Weir's leather jacket. You have to wonder what Torri would look like in Asuran/Ancient robes that they always seem to wear. And also, the jakcet that Elizabeth wore at the end of BAMSR is the exact same design as the new Atlantis jackets that Woolsey and Teyla wear ... except made of leather.

I went back and read the articles on that situation and the blog. The story went that Torri was supposed to have 4 episodes before the mid-season break; then it went back and forth as being 4 episodes total. I don't know if BAMSR was always intended to be the mid-season pick-up. Would seem so, but perhaps they intended the ending of BAMSR to be the mid-season cliffy at one point, so it would have been the 4th episode before the break.

In either case, it's a moot point now.

The mention of Before I Sleep raised a question in my mind. In the episode, Elizabeth is faced with the question of: "Do I save Atlantis or do I save myself?" It really wasn't about saving the future expedition because they would have sent a malp through first, known it wasn't safe, and never come through the stargate. No, this was only about the city and she gave up her life to save it. My question is, would any of the other characters do the same?

John: Yes. I think most of his suicidal missions have been about saving both the city and the expedition, but I could see him doing it just for the city.

Ronon: No. He's seen so much death and destruction that IMO he would think it's more important to live to fight another day.

Teyla: No. She has her son to think of now.

Rodney: No. He would think it wasn't worth losing him.

The rest of the expedition, Carson, Ford, Radek, etc.: Again, no.

It's not that I don't think they're all brave enough to sacrifice themselves because I do, especially if they would be saving the other members of the expedition. But if it's JUST the city they are saving, John and Elizabeth are the ones I see with the emotional connection to the city.

One more reason why J/E understand each other so well.

Very true, and I'd add that John and Elizabeth value the city so much they're willing to sacrifice even each other to ensure it remains protected. Elizabeth for John in CG; John for Elizabeth in Adrift. The city truly ties them together, for them their lives revolve around it.

But--I will say that when I say 'city', I mean the people of Atlantis, in their case, the expedition. Not just the city proper, but Atlantis as Atlantis and the people living in it. Like John's saving everyone in "Progeny" by blowing the city up. He had to make sure the people were safe. But the city has been expendable before, just not the people of it.

Elizabeth, for me, has always been the heart of the city. Rodney the mind, John the soul (though soul and heart can be interchangeable).

Though there are still Weir naysayers out there, my general impression throughout the last two seasons is that the majority do miss her, even if they weren't die-hard fans. Most of the reasonable viewers who are general viewers and not specific character supporters have missed her presence, and they perhaps wish she'd not been written out. It's heartening to see how many people, in the GITM and TMC discussions, admitted to missing her, whether they be shippers, non-shippers, general viewers, tekkies, SG-1 fans, or whatnot. *waves Weir flag*

[Southern Red]

Biff? Whut's biff? I'm sorry I've failed you gateraid!!! *bows*



I once asked this question of our ratings guru Briangate78,who explained--TRW did indeed have the highest ratings of the season--but it was also preceded by the 200th episode of SG-1. Working in the TV biz meself, you learn not to discount lead-ins. In the case of TRW, it was boosted a bit because of SG-1.

Regardless I don't think it would have pulled a below-average rating.



I went back and read the articles on that situation and the blog. The story went that Torri was supposed to have 4 episodes before the mid-season break; then it went back and forth as being 4 episodes total. I don't know if BAMSR was always intended to be the mid-season pick-up. Would seem so, but perhaps they intended the ending of BAMSR to be the mid-season cliffy at one point, so it would have been the 4th episode before the break.

In either case, it's a moot point now.



Very true, and I'd add that John and Elizabeth value the city so much they're willing to sacrifice even each other to ensure it remains protected. Elizabeth for John in CG; John for Elizabeth in Adrift. The city truly ties them together, for them their lives revolve around it.

But--I will say that when I say 'city', I mean the people of Atlantis, in their case, the expedition. Not just the city proper, but Atlantis as Atlantis and the people living in it. Like John's saving everyone in "Progeny" by blowing the city up. He had to make sure the people were safe. But the city has been expendable before, just not the people of it.

Elizabeth, for me, has always been the heart of the city. Rodney the mind, John the soul (though soul and heart can be interchangeable).

Though there are still Weir naysayers out there, my general impression throughout the last two seasons is that the majority do miss her, even if they weren't die-hard fans. Most of the reasonable viewers who are general viewers and not specific character supporters have missed her presence, and they perhaps wish she'd not been written out. It's heartening to see how many people, in the GITM and TMC discussions, admitted to missing her, whether they be shippers, non-shippers, general viewers, tekkies, SG-1 fans, or whatnot. *waves Weir flag*

I second that last part. I was lurking on the TWOP forum recently. Always good for a different perspective. A somewhat casual fan said he and his girlfriend mostly stopped watching at the end of S3. They only saw bits of S4-5 and he...get ready to LOL...wanted to know if it ever came out that Shep was really the father of Teyla's baby. Needless to say the regular viewers went WTF? dude, where did you get that? So I'm guessing he watched certain scenes in S4 and didn't get the Kanaan explanation. LOL a lot. But *shout out to my Sheyla shipper friends* again it's all about badwritingbadwritingbadwriting.

[Reiko]

Carson should go more, Rodney definitely less in order to be plausible. That said, Teyla and Ronon should occasionally go with other teams, and sometimes Sheppard should not go at all (like maybe once a season) given that most of his duties would be behind a desk

I should point that out. Mix up the teams just for the sake of mixing them up and to explore a new dynamic. But without adding/killing new characters. I like that idea.

Elizabeth, for me, has always been the heart of the city. Rodney the mind, John the soul (though soul and heart can be interchangeable).

For me, it's Carson = heart Elizabeth = soul. Because I think soul also covers heart and more, which is what Elizabeth, one true leader of Atlantis, is.

Badwriting badwriting badwriting indeed. I mean that scene at the start of Search and Rescue? There's a difference between that and stringing shippers along. Now that was just mean on behalf of TPTB I think. Not that I like Sheyla or anything duh but no wonder people are confused.

[Erin87]

The mention of Before I Sleep raised a question in my mind. In the episode, Elizabeth is faced with the question of: "Do I save Atlantis or do I save myself?" It really wasn't about saving the future expedition because they would have sent a malp through first, known it wasn't safe, and never come through the stargate. No, this was only about the city and she gave up her life to save it. My question is, would any of the other characters do the same?

John: Yes. I think most of his suicidal missions have been about saving both the city and the expedition, but I could see him doing it just for the city.

Ronon: No. He's seen so much death and destruction that IMO he would think it's more important to live to fight another day.

Teyla: No. She has her son to think of now.

Rodney: No. He would think it wasn't worth losing him.

The rest of the expedition, Carson, Ford, Radek, etc.: Again, no.

It's not that I don't think they're all brave enough to sacrifice themselves because I do, especially if they would be saving the other members of the expedition. But if it's JUST the city they are saving, John and Elizabeth are the ones I see with the emotional connection to the city.

One more reason why J/E understand each other so well.

And yet another thing that unites them! I love the point you made. I think the two of them connected to the city in a way other characters didn't.

Damn! I'm with Anuna; that is an awesome link between the two I hadn't thought of before.

There's the old saying 'home is where the heart is', and Atlantis has truly become home to Elizabeth and John on so many levels. It also ties in very well with how the two of them never really readjusted to life back on Earth in The Return Part 1. They know where they really belong.

I definitely agree with this. I'd always gotten the feeling that they needed the city more than the rest of the expedition. It is their home. It is the place where they both got their second start, where they became the people they were meant to be, if you will. Like Scary Kitty said, their inability to adjust in The Return P.1 is a key example of this. That's why I love John's line at the end of the ep. "...not going to sit here and let them take [I]our[I] home from us." It's just so true and I love that line so much! They do belong there!
So... all this talk about Atlantis as home... *looks at ceiling and whistles innocently while inserting plug for fanfiction* http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4560069/...ood_to_be_Home, my first fanfic. It seems to fit in with the discussion, so I figured why not self promote a little.

[Southern Red]

I definitely agree with this. I'd always gotten the feeling that they needed the city more than the rest of the expedition. It is their home. It is the place where they both got their second start, where they became the people they were meant to be, if you will. Like Scary Kitty said, their inability to adjust in The Return P.1 is a key example of this. That's why I love John's line at the end of the ep. "...not going to sit here and let them take [I]our[I] home from us." It's just so true and I love that line so much! They do belong there!
So... all this talk about Atlantis as home... *looks at ceiling and whistles innocently while inserting plug for fanfiction* http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4560069/...ood_to_be_Home, my first fanfic. It seems to fit in with the discussion, so I figured why not self promote a little.

That fic was the perfect cap to this convo. And points up once again how devastating to both of them it must have been to lose the city. Because in

Spoiler:

EatG, no matter what happens next, having the city on Earth isn't the same. John especially will be even more lost.

[Erin87]

That fic was the perfect cap to this convo. And points up once again how devastating to both of them it must have been to lose the city. Because in

Spoiler:

EatG, no matter what happens next, having the city on Earth isn't the same. John especially will be even more lost.

Thank you! And

Spoiler:

he really will. At least in the Pegasus Galaxy he could deal with things in his own way and there were still some things that were the same (the city being one of the few constants in his life after Elizabeth's departure). But on Earth he'll have to deal with all the regulations and the restrictions on him. And there will be all these people swarming all over the city with their politics and agendas, and he could very well be pushed aside. And what would there be for him to do? Join an SG team like he tried in The Return? Like that worked before.
Actually, I can picture the whole situation being very much like TR, the only difference being the city is actually there. But John would still feel the same sense of missing Atlantis, because even though it would technically be there, the city that he knew would no longer exist.