Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Falcon Horus]

» Kate's death was another useless piece of crap for nothing, it did nothin to advance the plot unless making your audience go, "OMG. They killed someone!" is pushing the story.

Here it was mostly, "Oh, FH isn't going to like that.". And guess what -> RCC, I frakkin' hate you!

But like I said in the "saddest loss"-thread... The sad part about loosing a character is not entirely on the loss but more on the deletion of that character. The part where they erase their existence from history and pretend like they never existed. There's no realism in that, none whatsoever.

I think they don't know half of how popular all the characters are in SGA, even the less liked.

[Southern Red]

I'm earning more and more respect for this actress. I'm glad she took the time to study and prepare--especially...

Spoiler:

The mental aspect of the character. That's what impressed me most about the interview. It's not just about the hands and the voice--she wanted to get inside Torri's head, and how she saw the character. I appreciate that, as a Weir fan.

I'm still not convinced, of course, and won't be until I see the episode. But I will watch to see what she can do, and for the reactions of everyone else.

After this episode it will be vitally important that those of us who watch go on the episode threat and comment. Judging by the posts on the Michelle Morgan interview article, the Weir haters will be out in force along with all their socks. Even if we hate it, we must go and defend Torri/Elizabeth.

[gateraid]

GITM

Spoiler:

Okay, since there seems to be some question regarding Torri and GitMo, let me reiterate that we do know why Torri turned down GitMo. Right after the SGA audio drama with Torri (A Necessary Evil) came out back in May, I posted a transcript of part of the interview with Torri that was included at the end of the CD, in which she specifically addressed that question.

I'll repost the text here (note that the audio drama and the interview were recorded before the official announcement that Torri would not be returning in Season 5):


So there it is. She turned it down because she wanted closure, and didn't think the story as it was presented to her would give that closure. And I personally am glad she stuck to her guns on that. I don't want to see this dragged out every damn year; just bring her back full time and be done with it!

Regarding the possibility of an ongoing storyarc, as far as I know, Mallozzi is the only one who has claimed that there was the "possibility of a larger arc" that could spring from GitMo. Everything I've read from others in the production (like Gero) have not said anything specific about there being more episodes beyond GitMo; only very vague statements that the storyline would be wrapped up this season. Even Binder's comment is kind of vague; he says only that the "storyline will continue." There's no way to know if he's speaking about additional episodes, or just GitMo.

Now, with Mallozzi's vague and contradictory statements about the true nature of the supposed storyline, combined with Torri's statements about the vagueness of what she was told by TPTB about the story and her discomfort with the situation, it sounds as though TPTB intended to keep things open-ended, and in such a way that Torri clearly did not think would be the best thing for the character and the fans. It's entirely possible that there were some ideas for moving the story forward beyond GitMo, but with Torri no longer involved, TPTB obviously would've had to rethink whatever ideas they had. I'm getting the feeling from what's been said more recently that GitMo will be it as far as the storyline goes; we'll get a resolution to what was going on at the end of BAMSR, but not necessarily a final end. Whether or not they pick up the story again after GitMo will probably depend on whether or not TPTB are really willing to get Torri back. Certainly, the comments over on the Morgan interview look to be pretty much on the line of, "bring Torri back." *amused look*

As for GitMo itself, the interview with Michelle Morgan gave me a little bit more confidence that the episode might not totally suck; she did say that she went back and studied Torri's performance, so it sounds like Morgan's tried to do right by the character. That's the mark of a good actress who knows her craft, so I'm a bit more cautiously optimistic about Morgan's performance. But I still don't want to see her as Elizabeth again after GitMo. One episode is enough.

Scary Kitty I had no idea about that interview. I'm glad that Torri felt a sense of responsibility but I do wish that she had taken a leap of faith (even though she had no reason to) and accepted the storyline. Who knows, with her there they MIGHT have wrapped things up. And if they dragged things on, well look what happened with Carson. It's there, but it's not...and he's going to be back for more.

If Mallozzi was the only one who claimed the larger arc then I wonder what Carl meant when he said this

Oops. Your other quote was meant to be in here

Sounds like they have plans for the Elizabeth/Replicator arc to me. And seeing how it it says that what happened to Elizabeth Wier will be addressed leads me to believe that THAT is GITM and that 'the storyline will continue' deals with an ongoing arc.

And with Morgan as Elizabeth... I'm thrilled that she's looked at how Elizabeth acted and how Torri portrayed her. Who knows what the episode might show.

There is more than one interpretation of CB's statement about possible future replicator storylines. He merely says that in Gitm the Elizabeth storyline has to be addressed. He omits whether the future eps (if any) actually involve Elizabeth, or just the replicators.

[gateraid]

Totally sparky unrelated - I'm laughing like crazy because of gateraid's new signature.

The other option was:

Spoiler:

What's Athosian for ST*U?

[Reiko]

After this episode it will be vitally important that those of us who watch go on the episode threat and comment. Judging by the posts on the Michelle Morgan interview article, the Weir haters will be out in force along with all their socks. Even if we hate it, we must go and defend Torri/Elizabeth.

» Yup. My stinky socks are ready.

[gateraid]

Here it was mostly, "Oh, FH isn't going to like that.". And guess what -> RCC, I frakkin' hate you!

But like I said in the "saddest loss"-thread... The sad part about loosing a character is not entirely on the loss but more on the deletion of that character. The part where they erase their existence from history and pretend like they never existed. There's no realism in that, none whatsoever.

I think they don't know half of how popular all the characters are in SGA, even the less liked.

How ironic that they killed off their psychologist in the very season they needed her the most

[Southern Red]

» Yup. My stinky socks are ready.

I just noticed I typed threat instead of thread in that last post. Freudian slip maybe? lol

[gateraid]

I just noticed I typed threat instead of thread in that last post. Freudian slip maybe? lol

I noticed that

<snip>
Daniel was always the nerd, and he changed.
Jack remained ever constant.
Sam became more relaxed with herself as a military officer and a woman.
Teal'c learnt what it was meant to be free.
Hammond was the papa looking after them all.
Cameron learned to step out of the shadows.
Vala learned to trust.
Elizabeth---well she was Janeway without the military background IMHO.

And yeah I think that the characters make the show, but I don't believe that TPTB think so. Sad to say...

....and now I will go.

In that one I read it as Vala learned to thrust

[Reiko]

How ironic that they killed off their psychologist in the very season they needed her the most

» Yeah - that was my thought too. "Not Kate, she keeps our SANITY." Maybe tptb got rid of her because they realised they needed to see her. o_O

In that one I read it as Vala learned to thrust

» I think she already knows how to do that?

[gateraid]

» Yeah - that was my thought too. "Not Kate, she keeps our SANITY." Maybe tptb got rid of her because they realised they needed to see her. o_O



» I think she already knows how to do that?

With the benefit of hindsight, she could have helped them delve into some of that angst over character death/loss *shrug*

[Ruined_puzzle]

After this episode it will be vitally important that those of us who watch go on the episode threat and comment. Judging by the posts on the Michelle Morgan interview article, the Weir haters will be out in force along with all their socks. Even if we hate it, we must go and defend Torri/Elizabeth.

I'll be there even though I won't watch. I'll just keep quoting you guys and add IA. It almost makes me want to watch just so I could have something to say.

The other option was:

Spoiler:

What's Athosian for ST*U?

LOL.

[Reiko]

I'll be there even though I won't watch. I'll just keep quoting you guys and add IA. It almost makes me want to watch just so I could have something to say.

» LOL. I do the same, I did not see BT or DV and yet have still commented in their discussions.

» Speaking of the GITMO thread and showing our Elizabeth support, I'd like to propose a Sekrit Lizzie Green Agenda::

» Below teh cut:

Spoiler:

» After GitMo airs, in the episode/general discussion threads especially, green and leave a nice comment to anyone who makes a positive comment/response about Elizabeth and/or Torri. Even if you don't like the person generally. Try to refrain from redding, but green your Lizzie hearts out.

» Sound good?

[Ruined_puzzle]

» LOL. I do the same, I did not see BT or DV and yet have still commented in their discussions.

» Speaking of the GITMO thread and showing our Elizabeth support, I'd like to propose a Sekrit Lizzie Green Agenda::

» Below teh cut:

Spoiler:

» After GitMo airs, in the episode/general discussion threads especially, green and leave a nice comment to anyone who makes a positive comment/response about Elizabeth and/or Torri. Even if you don't like the person generally. Try to refrain from redding, but green your Lizzie hearts out.

» Sound good?

I already do that to anyone that is pro sparky. Even just a tiny bit. So I'll Lizzie to the list.

[Anjirika]

NOTE This reply was about 5 pages long so I've split them up according to replies.


Scary Kitty: I know that TPTB screwed Torri over, but as I’ve said earlier the whole of show business is a transitory one. People are hired and fired for various reasons; trying to boost ratings, wanting to mix things up, problems with the actor…etc. In Torri’s case and ‘Ghost in the Machine’ the story that they pitched her may not have seemed so concrete and I can respect her decision for that but scripts do change and the story may have ended up more concrete after the rewrites and fan reaction to her being back for sure.

I know that she might have done well by her career, but Paul McGillion managed to shoot his small part in the Star Trek movie and still managed to work on how many episodes in season five, 5 was it? I believe that she could have moved on with her career and still made time for SGA. But that’s my personal opinion and I will follow Torri faithfully in whatever she does.

As to the Carl Binder comment, well it is kinda vague if you look at it but I’ve seen other interviews or something that talk about the replicator story continuing and I would assume that if the replicator story continues, then so will Elizabeth’s. But you’re right. Until we see ‘Ghost in the Machine’ we won’t know.

Wormhole: Why haven’t you been checking out the thread? I’m just curious…you used to post a lot back in the day

[Anjirika]

Anuna: Clone Carson may not be our Carson but he’s damn close enough. If they were going to bring Carson back, if they didn’t go with the whole “it was a dream” reset button then having him be a clone, or even an alternate reality Carson were the only ways to go. As it stands, he’s got some great character development going and he was brilliant in ‘The Seed’ but since you haven’t watched it, you wouldn’t know I guess.

Enterprise was all about the plot to me, Voyager was character driven but it had to be because they were totally cut off from their home for seven years. That’s why I think that Atlantis WAS character driven especially in season 1 when they were cut off from Earth. There was character development in seasons 2 and 3 but 4 was all plot driven. They had to move the story along with the Athosians, Michael, the Replicators and the Wraith. With all that having to be solved, it didn’t leave a lot of room for character development. Season 5 however is going great with Teyla and her dealing with being a mom, Woolsey stepping into new shoes…etc.

In terms of plausible reasons for doing what characters do…SGA has always had that. Sure getting rid of Carson and Elizabeth was kinda left field but the show is growing, changing…thing’s can’t be stagnant.

And in terms of the whole ‘it’s science fiction’ thing, I’ve come to the realization that TPTB of shows like to kill of characters to a) show that they can, and b) to stir up interest and c) to add shock value. I agree with you that TV shows should be about entertainment, but believe it or not a lot of people like watching characters get killed. It’s a staple of HEROES from what I understand. Characters came and went in BUFFY and ANGEL and those shows were/are amazing.
And you know what, people dying IS REALISM. People die all the time and it is a bit UNREALISTIC to think that in such a dangerous universe as the Pegasus Galaxy that NO ONE would die. Sure, I wish that it was the red shirts who died but no one else…but named characters have to go sometimes. It’s a fact of TV.

In terms of John grieving for Elizabeth he did plenty of that in ‘Adrift’ and ‘Lifeline’ and ‘This Mortal Coil’ plus in ‘This Mortal Coil’ the character was told that Elizabeth was dead. He was so grieved that he couldn’t pack her stuff away and as far as the cannon goes they didn’t have a romantic relationship so what we see grieving wise makes sense…especially since it’s not a serial/day by day show. Who knows how the character John would have grieved in his universe….we only see snippets of the characters, not their everyday lives. Just the stuff that makes for good TV.

As far as I’ve read, Elizabeth as a character wasn’t much loved. People saw her in the same capacity of Hammond and that was it. It’s only us Sparkies or the McWeirs or any other shipdom that shipped Elizabeth with someone that actually liked her, I’m sure that that’s not the entire viewing public. Only us crazies… ^_^

And I’d buy that Rodney and John were/ are the most popular. And I know that Elizabeth was the most popular female but all the writers are male so you know what that doesn’t mean much.

As for Woolsey, Anuna you’re all about character growth and Woolsey has grown as a character. Yes he was brought in as the enemy but he slowly has realized who’s side he’s on and in terms of the show it makes sense. Elizabeth was employed by the IOA but they always yanked control away from her when situations got tough. Samantha being the head of Atlantis makes sense with the increased threat of Michael, the other Wraith and the Replicators and once those threats were neutralized (or so they think) she could be replaced by someone that the International Oversight Association KNOWS will follow things by the book. The added character development of Woolsey comes from the fact that he knows he’s filling big shoes, he was a big fan of what Elizabeth did and he’s learning that the rules are guidelines to be followed when needed.

And if my views have changed, it’s because I’ve learnt to let it go. I sent my letters and whatnot to TPTB but it hasn’t made a lick of difference. Why should I go being bitter and ignore a show that still has characters that I like on it? Yes, Elizabeth was my favourite and the chemistry with John was what made it all worthwhile but there’s new chemistry between Teyla and Kenann and I’ve found new characters to love (Keller and Woolsey among my favourites of John, Teyla, Ronan and Rodney).

I can’t believe that you would give up watching a show based on ONE character.