Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Anjirika]

Now! Enough grousing about GitMo! It's not going to be on for another week, and we'll have plenty of time after that to blow it into swiss cheese if it ends up sucking, but until then, let's get back to Sparky!

Okay...I'll leave and come back in a week. Who knows what might happen between now and then. And while my first reaction to the trailer was revulsion, the more I watch it the more I think that it MIGHT actually be alright.


See you all next Friday.

[Anjirika]

I'm glad you will be. That's your prerogative and your perspective, and that's good. I've never been the type to demand something of producers. I believe people can change their shows as they like--they just have to run the risk that fans who preferred it before the changes won't like the change.

But I disagree with you on the idea of SGA (and SG-1) being plot driven shows. There wasn't intricacy to either. Gou'uld. Ori. Replicators. Wraith. Threatening Earth. Threatening Milky Way. Threatening Atlantis. Threatening Pegasus. That about sums up the main plots of 12 years worth of shows. I think they're very loose on plot. I don't know about you, but I watched SG-1 because I loved Daniel's nerdishness and Jack's sense of humor. I like Sam's toughness and brains. I love Elizabeth's unique approach to a sci-fi female leader. And John's nonchalant attitude in the face of dire straights. They could have been fighting man-eating killer clowns and I would have watched if Elizabeth and John had been who they were.

I think these shows ARE their characters. Which is why you have people truly hurt by the passing of characters. Or that they're not respected. Or can't find anything that pulls them back in to a new season when they preferred the show the way it was.

Alright, seasons 1-3 of Atlantis were character driven now not so much except in a few cases. SG1 well season 9 & 10 were certainly character driven as were seasons 1-3. Somewhere in the middle they lost it I think.

Daniel was always the nerd, and he changed.
Jack remained ever constant.
Sam became more relaxed with herself as a military officer and a woman.
Teal'c learnt what it was meant to be free.
Hammond was the papa looking after them all.
Cameron learned to step out of the shadows.
Vala learned to trust.
Elizabeth---well she was Janeway without the military background IMHO.

And yeah I think that the characters make the show, but I don't believe that TPTB think so. Sad to say...

....and now I will go.

[Scary Kitty]

Scary Kitty I had no idea about that interview. I'm glad that Torri felt a sense of responsibility but I do wish that she had taken a leap of faith (even though she had no reason to) and accepted the storyline. Who knows, with her there they MIGHT have wrapped things up. And if they dragged things on, well look what happened with Carson. It's there, but it's not...and he's going to be back for more.

After the way they screwed her over, I really can't blame her for not having confidence in them. Why should she take a leap of faith when they won't give her anything to believe in? Why should she sit on the edge of her seat waiting for a phone call from TPTB that might never come, when instead she could go off and do other projects that she's more comfortable with? I think she made the right call for her career.

If Mallozzi was the only one who claimed the larger arc then I wonder what Carl meant when he said this

"We haven’t seen the last of the Replicators, even though we thought we had," Binder told GateWorld. "But there’s a few loose ends in regards to what happened to Elizabeth Weir that will be addressed, and that storyline will continue. And also with the addition of Woolsey to Atlantis, there’s a new order as far as how Atlantis proceeds."

Sounds like they have plans for the Elizabeth/Replicator arc to me. And seeing how it it says that what happened to Elizabeth Wier will be addressed leads me to believe that THAT is GITM and that 'the storyline will continue' deals with an ongoing arc.

That was the Binder comment I was referring to earlier. There is simply not enough detail in his comment to say with absolute certainty if he is talking about just GitMo, or more episodes beyond GitMo. And as I said before, any plans they may have come up with would have to have been changed when Torri turned down GitMo. Obviously, they were able to proceed with this one episode without Torri, but until we see GitMo, there's no telling if it'll be possible for them to go any further without her.

*goes back to looking for fics*

[Wormhole]

Hi! What do you think of our discussion Wormhole?

To be honest I’ve not checked this thread out much since season five has started. I’m keeping a closed lid on it.

[Ruined_puzzle]

As for my part in not watching, I can tell you why I don't. It doesn't have to do with just because Torri was let go. It has to do with the fact that the character wasn't remembered. I want a good story, I want good characters. It doesn't matter to me that Robert Picardo is great (I like him) or that Jewel replaced Carson (I actually like Jewel a lot and have no opinion on the Keller situation) or that Ronon and Rodney and Zelenka and everyone else who I enjoyed remains behind. I stopped watching because I stopped believing in what they were writing about. That's perhaps jumping pretty far in Sci-fi, but the one human element in sci-fi are the characters. And the fact that none of those characters showed significant personality changes over the fact that they lost Carson and Elizabeth within the span of two months, or that they didn't mourn them, bothered me a lot. John left someone behind. On purpose. He should have been angry. REALLY angry. Or really, really sad. He should have thought about Elizabeth more, and I'm not just talking Sparky, I'm talking about as his commander, his close friend, the person he spoke the most with, and the person he ended up leaving behind which is the first time he'd done that.

And Rodney? Elizabeth died because Rodney insisted on something--where were the ramifications of that? One line in "The Seer". He should have been doubting his abilities (and not just in the episodes where Elizabeth is a part of the story). Teyla should have been missing her close female friend as she went through her pregnancy. Rodney should have been petrified when John and Teyla and anyone else had their life threatened because of what happened to Carson. People should have had a hard time with Sam.

They shouldn't have been nonchalant about blowing up the replicator homeworld. A person they cared about died there. They shouldn't have deleted it out of the database like it was 'just another day on Atlantis'.

The one person who's maintained continuity? Ronon. RONON!

That's why I stopped watching. They didn't convince me that those deaths, those characters I loved, mattered. And until they do, I won't watch again. I don't doubt there are some characters they love and treat with respect, but I want them to respect that the characters I loved were important, too.

F**k yes I <3 you. That is exactly why I gave up on Atlantis.

I wish I could green you again but I already did.

[Anuna]

Me in bold.

Hi! What do you think of our discussion Wormhole?



I thought that it was wishful thinking when they said that they'd bring Carson back and look how that turned out.

Lame? Clone Carson sort of kills the fun. It's not our Carson.


Anuna, it's a sci-fi show. Sci-fi shows have never been about the characters, least not in my experience. SG1 maybe, Voyager definatly but Atlantis has never seemed to be about the characters plus JoeM likes playing god. Hence the changes...

The whole Star Trek is all about its characters. If by any chance you missed the whole character development maybe you should watch it again. There's consistency. There are plausible reasons for things they did. There's character development - what a shocker! If the show insists being about the plot but not about the characters, then there's nobody to carry that plot. Which makes the plot kind of lame.

...and as for characters dying, it is science fiction. They can always be brought back. Janet was, Martof was, Kalwalsky was hell Carson was brought back too. It can happen, it might happen.

Oh this is really priceless. If its science fiction, then why do i have to lose those characters in the first place? I want to have fun when I watch it. Oh wait, it's because of adding realism to the show, right? But nevermind, it's sci fi, and nobody dies in sci fi.

Realistic much? Or rather schizophrenic?

And I saw an interview on one of the SG1 featurettes that the directors (who have carried over) love it when other characters react to what is saying as their character would so yes JoeF is one actor but he's an actor who's respected and can remember Elizabeth in his own way. He's just not---or if he is, we're not seeing it.

That kills the fun.The whole point would be for us to see him remembering Elizabeth and grieving. He did that as much as he could on his own, I guess.

As for fans writing better than the writers...well I'm not so sure. The fans of Elizabeth may feel that they can write better, but I wonder if the other fans feel that way. Elizabeth wasn't that popular on the show so I'm sure that there would be those who disagree with you.

Elizabeth wasn't popular? *jaw drop* I just can't believe what you're saying. Elizabeth, Rodney and John are the most popular characters of SGA.

Plus, the writers get paid and fanfiction writers don't so I don't think that it's humiliating because as I said fanfiction helps a small portion of the fandom.

I think it's humiliating to put in "charge" a character who was first brought to the show to annoy the viewers because he's the watchdog. Yes I like Robert. But I still think that Woolsey in command is a desperate measure.

There you go. I just can't believe how much your views have changed from the last time you posted here or on the other threads.

[Eri13]

That was the Binder comment I was referring to earlier. There is simply not enough detail in his comment to say with absolute certainty if he is talking about just GitMo, or more episodes beyond GitMo. And as I said before, any plans they may have come up with would have to have been changed when Torri turned down GitMo. Obviously, they were able to proceed with this one episode without Torri, but until we see GitMo, there's no telling if it'll be possible for them to go any further without her.

*goes back to looking for fics*

It won't be this season, anyway. They have everything written for this season, so if they starting doing anything relating to the Replicators, it would have to be in the line-up for Season 6.

I have a feeling they're doing what we're doing.

Spoiler:

They're waiting to see what the fan reaction to Franibeth will be. If it's good, they may try to skirt around Torri by having Michelle Morgan come back, but as I've said before, if they opt for that, I'd feel sorry for Michelle Morgan, because she doesn't get to develop the character on her own, it'll be mostly mimicking Torri. So here's hoping they do try to fight for Torri to come back, if that's the plan.

[Anuna]

Oh just give me good fan fictio. I prefer that WAY over the actual show.

Ain't that sad? Oh wait - it isn't - this way I can have the stories I really enjoy.

[Scary Kitty]

It won't be this season, anyway. They have everything written for this season, so if they starting doing anything relating to the Replicators, it would have to be in the line-up for Season 6.

I have a feeling they're doing what we're doing.

Spoiler:

They're waiting to see what the fan reaction to Franibeth will be. If it's good, they may try to skirt around Torri by having Michelle Morgan come back, but as I've said before, if they opt for that, I'd feel sorry for Michelle Morgan, because she doesn't get to develop the character on her own, it'll be mostly mimicking Torri. So here's hoping they do try to fight for Torri to come back, if that's the plan.

Yeah, and like I noted earlier,

Spoiler:

judging from the comments on the Morgan interview, it sounds like most people would rather see Torri as Elizabeth and Morgan as Fran (and Morgan herself said she'd like to come back, but as the original Fran). So I seriously hope that if TPTB really wants to go forward with this storyline, they'll do the right thing and go all out to make Torri a really good offer for Season 6 instead of just one piddly little episode.

[Scary Kitty]

Oh just give me good fan fictio. I prefer that WAY over the actual show.

Ain't that sad? Oh wait - it isn't - this way I can have the stories I really enjoy.

LOL!

Okay, Sparkies, it's fic rec time! For this week's Pretty!Day:

S'mores, by Hopeful Romantic. John takes Elizabeth camping without ever leaving Atlantis.

Phantasma, by Psyche G. Elizabeth is having some unsettling dreams.

Happy reading!

[Eri13]

Yeah, and like I noted earlier,

Spoiler:

judging from the comments on the Morgan interview, it sounds like most people would rather see Torri as Elizabeth and Morgan as Fran (and Morgan herself said she'd like to come back, but as the original Fran). So I seriously hope that if TPTB really wants to go forward with this storyline, they'll do the right thing and go all out to make Torri a really good offer for Season 6 instead of just one piddly little episode.

I'm earning more and more respect for this actress. I'm glad she took the time to study and prepare--especially...

Spoiler:

The mental aspect of the character. That's what impressed me most about the interview. It's not just about the hands and the voice--she wanted to get inside Torri's head, and how she saw the character. I appreciate that, as a Weir fan.

I'm still not convinced, of course, and won't be until I see the episode. But I will watch to see what she can do, and for the reactions of everyone else.

[Ruined_puzzle]

When you put it like this, I wonder why I still watch because this is exactly how I feel. I think it still goes back to fan fic for me. I'm mentally filling in all the pieces that are missing on screen. And honestly? I don't think this show could ever be all it could be because the things that needed to be changed weren't the characters. IMO

Because Shep is so PRETTY. That would be the only reason. LOL. Except that is not enough for me. Damn it.

I really wish somewhere down the line someone remakes Stargate Atlantis. Someone that has the guts to do the story right cause it could have been so much more than it is.

I thought that it was wishful thinking when they said that they'd bring Carson back and look how that turned out.

The thing is they like Carson. I don't think they like Elizabeth. She's a girl who doesn't know how to fight. Zomg how do you write that.

Anuna, it's a sci-fi show. Sci-fi shows have never been about the characters, least not in my experience. SG1 maybe, Voyager definatly but Atlantis has never seemed to be about the characters plus JoeM likes playing god. Hence the changes...

Sorry but I guess you have not been watching the awesome sci-fi. I think you should watch Doctor Who, Farscape, Life on Mars, BSG, The Middleman( I'm in love with this show).

As for fans writing better than the writers...well I'm not so sure. The fans of Elizabeth may feel that they can write better, but I wonder if the other fans feel that way. Elizabeth wasn't that popular on the show so I'm sure that there would be those who disagree with you.

It went like this Rodney, John and Elizabeth. Those were the most popular characters in SGA. There were just a small very vocal haters.

Alright, seasons 1-3 of Atlantis were character driven now not so much except in a few cases. SG1 well season 9 & 10 were certainly character driven as were seasons 1-3. Somewhere in the middle they lost it I think.

....and now I will go.

That's kind of funny since from everything I've been hearing for s4 and s5 the writers say that they are focusing more on the characters. LOL.

...come back when you feel like discussing some more.

[Anuna]

The only thing that would feel right to me is bringing Torri back. However, I don't see that happening -although I would love to see it, if her character was treated well - and that's why I'm happily sailing the river of De - Nial and writing you guys postcards, I mean fics.

[Falcon Horus]

Quoted a lot and as usual can't remember why...

...like I said Season 5 is so much better already. If you watched it then you'd see that Atlantis is still the same Atlantis with SOME changes. Major ones I'll grant you but Search and Rescue along with The Seed and The Daedalus Variations have been great so far.

Search & Rescue was okay, so was The Seed. Broken Ties was boring and if that was Ronon's big episode for the season then I feel really sorry for Jason, cause Rachel had more to do in it than him. It felt like his was the B-plot and hers the A.

And DV was horrible on every level. Team obviously means lots of Sheppard and Mckay, while Teyla and Ronon are standing by watching. I'd watch the dreaded 404 (Doppelganger) over this one any day, and I hate/love (depending on the day and/or mood) the 404.

Robert is such a likable actor that I can see through my hatred of Woolsey...who I don't hate so much.

If only they stopped using him as comic relief... will get old real fast.

Keep him as the annoying bureaucrat and have him act like a donkey when someone's in jeopardy (like in Broken Ties when Sheppard has to ask nicely if they can go off-world). Personally I wanted to twist Woolsey's neck at the point.

Bottom line you should watch it. You might be surprised.

You can't make people watch something, they know they won't enjoy. It's not because you like it still, they will too.

My spark, which was burning bright, fell off the central tower and poof, gone was my desire to watch Atlantis. I swear, if it wasn't for Teyla I wouldn't be watching this train wreck. But I'm a sucker that way... a weak mind.

I want a good story, I want good characters.

Word.

The one person who's maintained continuity? Ronon. RONON!

And I absolutely love him for it... GO RONON!!

TPTB hate to follow through on episodes, but they did it with Carson, so I have some hope.

How do you mean?

Yes TPTB spin, but they spun how Carson would be coming back and he has. So true to form things may change despite whether or not we think it will.

That would be because JM and the other dude weren't TPTB that killed Carson. They wanted him back, no matter the cost.

If Mallozzi was the only one who claimed the larger arc then I wonder what Carl meant when he said this...

One small detail CB is a writer, JM is in charge. JM calls the shots and CB has to follow those bullets.

And with Morgan as Elizabeth... I'm thrilled that she's looked at how Elizabeth acted and how Torri portrayed her. Who knows what the episode might show.

It can go either way. If they didn't kill the performance on the cutting floor, it might just be worth it. Though I feel sorry for Morgan nonetheless.

I thought that it was wishful thinking when they said that they'd bring Carson back and look how that turned out.

As mentioned above, killing Carson wasn't done by the current PTB. They wanted him back as soon as possible.

...and as for characters dying, it is science fiction. They can always be brought back. Janet was, Martof was, Kalwalsky was hell Carson was brought back too. It can happen, it might happen.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you really think we will ever see Grodin again, or Heightmeyer? Ford (apart from that little cameo)?

I don't think so.

Elizabeth wasn't that popular on the show so I'm sure that there would be those who disagree with you.

You might want to reconsider that statement.

Oh just give me good fan fiction. I prefer that WAY over the actual show.

I do to, yet I have squad to read these days.

....Regardless of the circumstances of why Torri was fired she was and that is the way of show business. Why did Hammond have to go in SG1? Why did Janet have to die? Why did Martof have to die? Why did Daniel leave in season 6? Why did he come back? Show business is transitory and you can't just ignore something because of it.

Hammond went because Don S. Davis was having health issues (rest his soul).

Janet had to die because TPTB thought season 7 was their last and thus they no longer needed a doctor and Heroes would be a brilliant episode to do so. Exit Teryl.

Martouf - no clue, but he was only a secondary character

Daniel left in season 6 because Michael Shanks felt that the character was bing stagnant and that he wasn't evolving enough. He came back when they offered him a nice story and a good deal (I also hear his carreer didn't move to much during that off-period)

Torri was basically fired... I wouldn't compare her to the people above.

[Reiko]

» I'm going to ignore most of the GITMO talk. It kinda kills my good mood.

» When it comes down to the "who": They all did it. Despite the fact that I hate to believe it, BW and RCC were also in on axing Elizabeth, and I'm in no doubt that it was just them who axed Carson. Gero seems genuinely happy at getting rid of him. And with his flip-flopping statements I don't believe Mallozzi. At all.

» As for Elizabeth, BW hasn't commented on her or Torri other than 'we're sorry to see her go', and yet allowing it to happen and refusing to comment afterwards really speaks volumes to me. And I think we all know JM's stance on this.

» As for bringing PM and TH back, for one I think tptb greatly underestimate Weir's popularity for one, which is why she was only offered one episode, which would be a pretty sh---y bum deal anyway. Which isn't such a big surprise that they didn't know, given that Martin Gero seemed pretty damned clueless (oh isnt he always) that Carson was loved during the SCB protest - which, I must note - people began shouting "STOP KILLING MORE OF OUR CHARACTERS!"

» Kate's death was another useless piece of crap for nothing, it did nothin to advance the plot unless amking your audience go, "OMG. They killed someone!" is pushing the story. Getting rid of Katie Brown? Horrible. Telling us to be quiet and just assume Ford is dead? *smacks self*

» Giving Carson five episodes and ELizabeth one and telling you to "wait and see" about her is probably the limit - of course, any more would be admitting they were wrong, and so I'm just thinking it's all been lip service. Also, As far as I'm concerned, I genuinely believe that BW doesn't really give a flying f--k about what's happened Elizabeth or SGA anymore.