Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[hopalong]

Concerning Woolsey:

Spoiler:

Am I the only one who thinks he wouldn't hit Elizabeth below the belt with harsh accusations like he did in SG-1? From what we saw, he seemed to have a genuine respect for Elizabeth and seemed uncomfortable having to go up against her. I like this twist, because it makes his character more three dimensional; it'll be interesting to see how he goes up against Elizabeth while still respecting her and not completely disagreeing with her.

Without actually having seen the episode in question.

Spoiler:

maybe he's learned from his experiences with SG-1. He came down hard on them, and at least part of his attitude came from Kinsey. Then, he finds out what Kinsey was really like. It stands to reason that he can learn from his mistakes...

[Melyanna]

Concerning Woolsey:

Spoiler:

Am I the only one who thinks he wouldn't hit Elizabeth below the belt with harsh accusations like he did in SG-1? From what we saw, he seemed to have a genuine respect for Elizabeth and seemed uncomfortable having to go up against her. I like this twist, because it makes his character more three dimensional; it'll be interesting to see how he goes up against Elizabeth while still respecting her and not completely disagreeing with her.

Spoiler:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Woolsey and Elizabeth knew each other long before Elizabeth's involvement in the SGC. I wouldn't imagine them as friends or anything, but I think they'd know each other. And given his behavior toward Elizabeth, I think he has a lot of genuine respect for her, as you put it. I got the distinct impression during No Man's Land that he was trying to save her job, probably because he knows that the list of potential replacements for her is very short.

I could be wrong, of course. This could be an elaborate ploy, but I hope it isn't. I had hopes with the introduction of Elizabeth that they were going to start portraying the government as something other than a necessary evil. In the past, Woolsey has been a good guy doing his job, so I hope that continues.

We should also remember that Woolsey did not accuse Sam and Jack of having an inappropriate relationship. He said they were prone to letting "interpersonal relationships" get in the way of clear decision-making, and when he was asked by Hayes if he meant something inappropriate, he was saying no before Kinsey interrupted. So it's possible that Woolsey might point out that Elizabeth is too close to certain members of her staff, but I doubt there'll be a hit below the belt or an accusation of something more than what it is. I don't think he has a particular problem with people caring for one another – his problem lies in how those people deal with it in a crisis. And Elizabeth and John have shown over and over that they can handle it.

[Athenaktt]

For those who haven't seen the episodes or don't have access to the episodes, I just finished with the transcript.

You can find "No Man's Land" transcript and all every episode that has aired so far here.

I'm amazed I'm actually caught up with transcripts for once.

[A.L.]

Well, in Simon's defense...

Spoiler:

I don't think he was ever seriously considering going to Atlantis, and I think he was trying to tell her that. Elizabeth just wasn't listening to him. I mean, the first scene with him in that episode, he was expressing some pretty strong disinterest. He didn't even want the option. I think Elizabeth was just so used to being able to talk people into things that she wasn't paying enough attention to the signs there.

I know a lot of people think she was staying with him or had a lot of time with him or something, but I highly doubt it. I imagine that both times, she had to hop a flight to Washington to talk to him and then came right back to Colorado on the red-eye. I don't think he wanted to hurt her by telling her there was someone else. After all, Elizabeth came back just a few short weeks after sending the message to him to move on, probably no more than two months. I believe Simon had already decided that Elizabeth wasn't coming back and had gotten involved with someone before getting Elizabeth's message. I don't think he wanted Elizabeth to know that. It was his last resort.

In which case he should have said something sooner and been more obvious.

Spoiler:

I'll take the fact that telling her about the girl was a last resort and I realize it probably wasn't an easy thing to tell her no in any respect but if he knew her as well as he should have given what we understand their time together should be, he should have known she wouldn't give up easily. And if she did have to hop a plane a couple of times to see him he should have been more direct in saying he had no interest to go instead of making excuses about having patients and what not and so forth.

I'm not trying to rake him over the coals here. Honestly, right after I saw the epi I wanted to but given time I thought it out and wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt (even wrote a fic to that effect). And I'm not saying it'd be easy to tell her he didn't want to go at all. Heaven knows I'm a wimp and I'd probably have been vague as he had. But I know for a fact his character is a stronger personality that I am so I feel he should have been more direct when it was obvious she was pushing it. Which was darn obvious from the get go.

And I'm not so sure she had to hop a plane anywhere to see him. I mean it's possible but in Home she seemed to come and go from the house to the SGC a few times didn't she? Or am I remembering wrong. And yeah I know it was a dream but I think not having to take a plane if she were suppose to would have clued her in a lot earlier that something was wrong during that epi as well.

As I said, I may not want Lizzie with Simon but I don't believe he's some horrible guy. I just think he handled the situation badly. Granted, we're all human and we all do that quite a bit I'm sure but this is my opinion of Simon's role in Intruder.

I'd say 'nuff said but I'm sure I'd think of other points should this discussion continue. Thanks, Mel. This discussion was kind of fun, getting some thoughts I'd had on the matter out there.

AL

[A.L.]

Spoiler:

We should also remember that Woolsey did not accuse Sam and Jack of having an inappropriate relationship. He said they were prone to letting "interpersonal relationships" get in the way of clear decision-making, and when he was asked by Hayes if he meant something inappropriate, he was saying no before Kinsey interrupted. So it's possible that Woolsey might point out that Elizabeth is too close to certain members of her staff, but I doubt there'll be a hit below the belt or an accusation of something more than what it is. I don't think he has a particular problem with people caring for one another – his problem lies in how those people deal with it in a crisis. And Elizabeth and John have shown over and over that they can handle it.

I wholeheartedly agree. And this recent encounter and the reactions seem to support that even more.

Spoiler:

She was dang choaked up when she and Caldwell discussed the losses but she was determined that the fight wasn't over yet. The ship's may have gotten away but there was no way they could allow them to get any closer to earth without trying. I find it interesting that Caldwell was ready to step back a moment and Lizzie said no. Granted his ship was quite damaged going in could be suicide but he doesn't seem the type to me that would let that stop him from finishing what they started and keeping the Wraith away from earth. He may not like sending his people to their likely death but I was a little surprised he hesitated the way he did.

Anyway, the actual point had been that Lizzie's relationship with her people (any of them) does not affect her to the point of it getting in the way of what she has to do. She is just awesome.

AL

[Melyanna]

In which case he should have said something sooner and been more obvious.

Spoiler:

I'll take the fact that telling her about the girl was a last resort and I realize it probably wasn't an easy thing to tell her no in any respect but if he knew her as well as he should have given what we understand their time together should be, he should have known she wouldn't give up easily. And if she did have to hop a plane a couple of times to see him he should have been more direct in saying he had no interest to go instead of making excuses about having patients and what not and so forth.

Just my opinion, but I suspect he wouldn't have wanted to go anyway.

Spoiler:

He does make a point that Elizabeth is more adventuresome than he is, and that's probably true. I also get the impression that he was pretty hurt by Elizabeth's leaving in the first place. Whether she said goodbye in person or not, that's got to be painful to be in a seemingly committed relationship with a person only to have her jump up and leave on a mission that she admits will probably be one-way. And I had more to say, but I've apparently lost track of where I was.

Spoiler:

And I'm not so sure she had to hop a plane anywhere to see him. I mean it's possible but in Home she seemed to come and go from the house to the SGC a few times didn't she? Or am I remembering wrong. And yeah I know it was a dream but I think not having to take a plane if she were suppose to would have clued her in a lot earlier that something was wrong during that epi as well.

As I said, I may not want Lizzie with Simon but I don't believe he's some horrible guy. I just think he handled the situation badly. Granted, we're all human and we all do that quite a bit I'm sure but this is my opinion of Simon's role in Intruder.

I tend to take everything in Home with a grain of salt. I doubt Simon and Elizabeth were ever that idyllic, for one thing. I suppose I concluded that Simon lived in the DC area because Elizabeth lived and worked in the DC area. I suppose it's possible that he was elsewhere, but I have my doubts. And I seriously doubt he was in Colorado Springs. The coincidence would just be too much for me to believe. Within a couple hours' driving distance, perhaps, but not in Colorado Springs.

But all this is mildly off-topic, I suppose.

[gambit]

I love Elizabeth, but as a guy I have to say that Simon wasn't the "bad guy," Elizabeth was. Sure he should have told her about the other woman in his life but she did leave on a "one way trip." And didn't even have the courage to tell him in person. ANY woman would be naive to believe that a man would not move on after a year, especially if she wasn't really suppose to come back. For I was Simon and she all of a sudden came back on my door step, I probably would have told her to "go to hell" for leaving without telling me in person. I don't know a guy who wouldn't. But I still love Elizabeth.

[Athenaktt]

I love Elizabeth, but as a guy I have to say that Simon wasn't the "bad guy," Elizabeth was. Sure he should have told her about the other woman in his life but she did leave on a "one way trip." And didn't even have the courage to tell him in person. ANY woman would be naive to believe that a man would not move on after a year, especially if she wasn't really suppose to come back. For I was Simon and she all of a sudden came back on my door step, I probably would have told her to "go to hell" for leaving without telling me in person. I don't know a guy who wouldn't. But I still love Elizabeth.

Well, I certainly don't believe Elizabeth was right for telling Simon she was leaving through a video tape. But what sorta irked me about Simon was that in "Intruder"

Spoiler:

Elizabeth was on Earth for at almost a month, if you calculate the time it takes Daedalus to get to earth, before he finally told her he was seeing someone. It seemed to me he was doing what Elizabeth did in "Rising" they both wanted to take the easier path out. I think he was hoping that Elizabeth would accept that he wasn't going and he could get away with not telling her that he's moved on. And yes, it was a bit naive of Elizabeth to not realize that Simon would have moved on after she disappeared on a one-way trip after a year. So Simon and Elizabeth are kind of similar, so I can see why they were in a relationship before the expedition. But obviously, in the last 2 years Elizabeth has changed. So has Simon because you know that hair no words can describe that change...

[gambit]

Well, I certainly don't believe Elizabeth was right for telling Simon she was leaving through a video tape. But what sorta irked me about Simon was that in "Intruder"

Spoiler:

Elizabeth was on Earth for at almost a month, if you calculate the time it takes Daedalus to get to earth, before he finally told her he was seeing someone. It seemed to me he was doing what Elizabeth did in "Rising" they both wanted to take the easier path out. I think he was hoping that Elizabeth would accept that he wasn't going and he could get away with not telling her that he's moved on. And yes, it was a bit naive of Elizabeth to not realize that Simon would have moved on after she disappeared on a one-way trip after a year. So Simon and Elizabeth are kind of similar, so I can see why they were in a relationship before the expedition. But obviously, in the last 2 years Elizabeth has changed. So has Simon because you know that hair no words can describe that change...

Ah, yes the hair....whoah shudders

[Melyanna]

Ah, yes the hair....whoah shudders

A friend of mine refers to that as the Hair That Makes Her Cry.

I'm not convinced that Elizabeth just up and disappeared one day. There are a couple hints that that she'd told him she was going somewhere for a long time – but I highly doubt she told him she might not be coming back until the video. Elizabeth really didn't have any right to expect him to wait for her, but sometimes it's difficult to let go, even when you know you should. Of course, it's entirely possible that I've forgotten something that was explicitly stated. But this is one of the reasons that I have a hard time buying the idea that they had a really happy relationship. I suspect things had been rough between them for a while, and her leaving just hastened the end of it.

[Hatcheter]

I tend to take everything in Home with a grain of salt. I doubt Simon and Elizabeth were ever that idyllic, for one thing. I suppose I concluded that Simon lived in the DC area because Elizabeth lived and worked in the DC area. I suppose it's possible that he was elsewhere, but I have my doubts. And I seriously doubt he was in Colorado Springs. The coincidence would just be too much for me to believe. Within a couple hours' driving distance, perhaps, but not in Colorado Springs.

But all this is mildly off-topic, I suppose.

Well, the DC plates on the car Elizabeth drove in 'Home' might have colored your perception a bit.

Sorry, I'm continuing the off topicness.

[Trialia]

Well, the DC plates on the car Elizabeth drove in 'Home' might have colored your perception a bit.

Sorry, I'm continuing the off topicness.

Joooooooooooooooooooooooor!!!!!! *snuggles Jor and passes out cookies*

[Melyanna]

Well, the DC plates on the car Elizabeth drove in 'Home' might have colored your perception a bit.

Sorry, I'm continuing the off topicness.

YAY, I'm not completely crazy!

That is weird, though. She did come back to the SGC and then back again to Simon's house, so... I don't know what was going on there.

[Ironic]

Hi. Newbie here. I've been lurking for some time now, but Emotionallydisturbed threatened talked me into joining GW. I'm a multi-shipper, as in, I ship both S/W and S/T, but I'm hoping I'll still manage to enjoy myself and partake of various squeeing. Anyway, I just wanted to pop my head in and say hi.

So, um, hi.

[Trialia]

Hi. Newbie here. I've been lurking for some time now, but Emotionallydisturbed threatened talked me into joining GW. I'm a multi-shipper, as in, I ship both S/W and S/T, but I'm hoping I'll still manage to enjoy myself and partake of various squeeing. Anyway, I just wanted to pop my head in and say hi.

So, um, hi.

Hey Sara! Great to see you. You might wanna resize your signature a bit though, it's a little bigger than the guidelines permit. --N/M me. I'm reading the attributes wrong. Still a little big, though.