Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[poundpuppy29]

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

On the fic front, John is now demanding that he and Elizabeth be drinking something other than coffee with their breakfast. Considering what he's asking to drink instead, who am I to argue?

Maybe the fact that the actors clicked so quickly is the reason the characters seemed to have relationships beyond the bad writing. I know that Joe has said numerous times that his scenes with Torri were among his favorites because he seldom got one on one scenes of any length with anyone else. And we know about their little political discussions, so that adds to it also. I've heard that Rachel and David became good friends also, along with various other off work combinations. I know that must have added to the screen chemistry.

But, if we pretend we don't know anything about what was going on behind the scenes, we see a lot of missing parts that, understandably, were too trivial to actually cover on screen. Though a line here or there would have helped explain the McShep friendship, why Ford did such an about face and now seems to idolize John, why Teyla went from trusting her new friends completely to suspicious and confused by their treatment, and maybe how Carson is kind of the center around which they all revolve.

Yeah, I'd definitely chalk it up to actor chemistry as well; wasn't it Joe who said that once the script leaves the writers' hands and goes to the actor, it's the actor who really takes over knowing what the character is all about because of how the character becomes ultimately defined by the actor's performance?

Oh, don't even get me started on all the obvious missing scenes going on throughout Atlantis. I imagine that if you put together all the missing scenes, you'd have enough material to have an entirely new series. Atlantis Nights, anyone?

I would like to have seen mention of an Athosian assimilation project, perhaps headed by Heightmeyer, along with a cultural sensitivity *barfs at the politically correct term* seminar, perhaps conducted by Teyla, explaining their culture to the others. Again, a line of dialogue would have sufficed.

*snerks at the political correctness*

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w254/poundpuppy29/Sparky/Sparky1.jpg

Ah, another pic of Torri in that lovely leather jacket. Yum!

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

On the fic front, John is now demanding that he and Elizabeth be drinking something other than coffee with their breakfast. Considering what he's asking to drink instead, who am I to argue?



Yeah, I'd definitely chalk it up to actor chemistry as well; wasn't it Joe who said that once the script leaves the writers' hands and goes to the actor, it's the actor who really takes over knowing what the character is all about because of how the character becomes ultimately defined by the actor's performance?

Oh, don't even get me started on all the obvious missing scenes going on throughout Atlantis. I imagine that if you put together all the missing scenes, you'd have enough material to have an entirely new series. Atlantis Nights, anyone?



*snerks at the political correctness*



Ah, another pic of Torri in that lovely leather jacket. Yum!

Joe did say that didn't he? And he's oh so correct. But my question is why didn't the writers look at that and build on it? They claimed they couldn't figure out what to do with the Weir character. Well, Torri certainly had plenty of ideas. Why not listen to her? And don't even get me started on the way they wasted Sheppard.

Speaking of characters who understood each other. What about John and Ronon? I know we'll talk more about them when we revisit S2, but for 2 guys from different galaxies, I thought they meshed pretty well. It must be a guy thing. Bonding over beer, playing sports. Yet when offered, Teyla went out of her way to avoid playing golf with John. I don't get how you could be writing 2 people as romantically interested in each other and have her seem so disinterested in his hobbies. *scratches head* Yet Elizabeth declares herself not a fan of football and we still see John taking every opportunity to just stand next to her on the balcony or sit on her desk for no good reason. Hello writers! Here's your sign.

[ShipperWriter]

Thanks, mandogater, and don't worry ... it usually happens that when the muse reappears, it brings a lot with it to make up for being missing!

Maybe the fact that the actors clicked so quickly is the reason the characters seemed to have relationships beyond the bad writing. I know that Joe has said numerous times that his scenes with Torri were among his favorites because he seldom got one on one scenes of any length with anyone else. And we know about their little political discussions, so that adds to it also. I've heard that Rachel and David became good friends also, along with various other off work combinations. I know that must have added to the screen chemistry.

But, if we pretend we don't know anything about what was going on behind the scenes, we see a lot of missing parts that, understandably, were too trivial to actually cover on screen. Though a line here or there would have helped explain the McShep friendship, why Ford did such an about face and now seems to idolize John, why Teyla went from trusting her new friends completely to suspicious and confused by their treatment, and maybe how Carson is kind of the center around which they all revolve.

I would like to have seen mention of an Athosian assimilation project, perhaps headed by Heightmeyer, along with a cultural sensitivity *barfs at the politically correct term* seminar, perhaps conducted by Teyla, explaining their culture to the others. Again, a line of dialogue would have sufficed.

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

On the fic front, John is now demanding that he and Elizabeth be drinking something other than coffee with their breakfast. Considering what he's asking to drink instead, who am I to argue?

Yeah, I'd definitely chalk it up to actor chemistry as well; wasn't it Joe who said that once the script leaves the writers' hands and goes to the actor, it's the actor who really takes over knowing what the character is all about because of how the character becomes ultimately defined by the actor's performance?

And hello, Sparky.

Oh, don't even get me started on all the obvious missing scenes going on throughout Atlantis. I imagine that if you put together all the missing scenes, you'd have enough material to have an entirely new series. Atlantis Nights, anyone?

Would this series feature anyone except John and Elizabeth? *snickers*

*snerks at the political correctness*

Ah, another pic of Torri in that lovely leather jacket. Yum!

These promo pictures with Joe and Torri are among my favorites! Can't get enough!

So I'm halfway done with "Trading Places" ... but can't get it on here right now due to lack of flash drive and no internet available for netbook. I'll try to post it later tonight.

[ShipperWriter]

Chapter 23 of ODAD for people who don't like ffdotnet ...

Spoiler:

The atmosphere in the courtroom during the arraignment was tense. Between Michael Kenmore standing there, claiming innocence while a good half of the Metro Police Department sat behind them glaring at the defendant, it didn't take much to make Lindsey Novak start hiccupping.

With a barely audible "Excuse me", she swallowed a gulp of water as the judge nodded understandingly at her.

She placed the glass back on the table and George Hammond nodded at her from his seat. "Counselor, let's talk about bail," he kindly ordered.

Novak cleared her throat, nodding apprehensively as her eyes quickly darted behind her. For a case with this much publicity and recognition, she didn't know why she had been assigned to it, instead of the executive ADA. The pressure riding on this had set off her nervous habit of hiccups before she had even gotten to the courtroom.

She sighed, then noticed a determined pair of hazel eyes staring intently back at her.

Detective John Sheppard sat at the end of the second row back, arms firmly crossed as he nodded at her. Next to him, Dr. Elizabeth Weir watched the interaction and rested a reassuring hand on his upper arm. He smiled sideways at her, then returned Novak's hesitant stare with a reaffirmed confidence.

She turned back to face Hammond on the bench. "The people ask for remand, your Honor. Not only is the defendant being charged with several violent crimes, but he also possesses a considerable amount of assets which make him a huge flight risk."

"Your Honor," the defense attorney spoke up, tilting the glasses on his nose, "my client has been an upstanding member of the community-"

Hammond held up a hand, cutting him off abruptly. "Excuse me, but your client just got out of a maximum security prison eighteen months ago. I fail to see how that classifies him as 'upstanding'."

As the defense attorney pulled his foot out of his mouth, the judge nodded at Novak. "I agree with the People's argument, both for the safety of the community and of the defendant himself," directing a stern look at the police that were gathered in the courtroom. "Defendant is remanded without bail," he announced, and the crack of the gavel against the wood made Novak heave a sigh of relief.

Quickly packing up her bag, she made her way out to the lobby where the rest of the detectives and doctors had gathered. Besides Sheppard and Dr. Weir, the group was comprised of Dr. McKay, Captain O'Neill and Dr. Carter, and Detective Lorne.

She smiled nervously as she approached them. "Detectives. Doctors. Sir."

Jack O'Neill nodded at her. "Nice job, Counselor."

She shook her head in agreement. "Yeah," she muttered.

Elizabeth gave her a empathetic smile, reaching out to grasp her hand. "You certainly got over your hiccups rather quickly."

Novak smiled, directing a sheepish look at John. "I guessed I realized just how much was at stake."

Sheppard shifted on his feet uncertainly. "So what happens now?" he asked, inserting his hands into the pants pockets of his suit as he raised an eyebrow.

"Well, he's been remanded and the chances of him miraculously getting out are slim to none. They'll set a trial date, which I have a feeling will be expedited due to the situation," she muttered unhappily, knowing that she would be the face of the People during all of this. "I start gathering all my evidence and getting witnesses in order. And then we put him away."

Weir smiled curiously as Novak realized just how bold she had sounded with that last statement. "You think we'll win?"

She gritted her teeth as she nodded. "The evidence is overwhelming. With four kidnappings and two murders, not even mentioning the lesser charges, it's pretty much open and shut. Let's just hope all goes well."

Just then, Officer Marks walked up to the group. "Counselor Novak?"

"Yes?"

Marks shot her a look of sympathy. "The press is out on the steps, awaiting your statement."

Novak glowered, then nodded in acceptance. "All right. Let's get this over with."

--------------

John slowly sighed as Novak walked with Officer Marks to the front doors. The last time these events had transpired, he had still been in the ICU but he keenly felt the stress all the same. It didn't worry him as much this time; Novak's words had served their purpose of reassuring him, and though it helped, he still couldn't ignore the gnawing feeling in his gut that this wasn't completely over.

Somberly, Jack O'Neill turned to face his detectives. "You know I'm not a man of … too many words, but you did a good job, John."

"Thank you, sir," Sheppard replied with a hint of surprise.

"You too, Lorne," Jack added, turning his brown eyes to regard the junior partner. "I know I was apprehensive about pairing you together, but you're one of the best partnerships I've ever had under my command. Keep it up."

Evan's light blue eyes twinkled slightly as he nodded. "Yes, sir."

Jack smiled, satisfied, and turned to face his wife. "Whatdya say we go home, Carter?"

"Sounds good to me." They nodded their farewells to the group, and walked to the side door that led to the parking garage.

As soon as they were out of sight, John turned to the remainder of the small crowd. "Anybody up for dinner?"

"Sounds great! But I have plans," McKay announced.

"With the good doctor?" Elizabeth asked with a sly smile.

John raised his eyebrows, feigning confusion. "Keller or Beckett?"

"Oh, don't even bring that up!"

It elicited a laugh from everyone except McKay. The memory was unforgettable. When they had all first met a couple of years ago, McKay was a little desperate for female companionship, so much so that he was resorting to skimming through the singles ads in a newspaper. Once John discovered this, he tricked McKay by placing an ad of his own, but instead of a beautiful, tall, leggy blonde, the Canadian pathologist ended up at a table with a Scottish medical doctor.

Carson had enjoyed it all in good fun, but Rodney moaned and complained the entire night. And the week following.

They walked out to the parking garage, waving at Jack and Sam as they drove out in her Volvo. Rodney walked over to his car, a small Toyota Echo, and the others approached the Dodge Charger.

He heard Elizabeth ask them, "So, what are you feeling like? Chinese, Thai, burgers?"

Lorne replied with a chuckle, but John didn't really hear what was said. The feeling that there was something else to this case was starting to overwhelm him, and it was making him sick to his stomach. He suddenly leaned over, placing his hands firmly against the roof of the car.

"John? Are you all right?" Elizabeth asked, placing a worried hand on his shoulder as she came to stand next to him.

He nodded, an uncertain expression clouding his face. "Yeah, yeah. I'm just … I'm not really hungry, to be honest. Maybe call up Cadman, see if she wants to join you," he suggested.

Lorne frowned at his partner. "You sure you're okay?"

John looked up, nodding. "Yeah, I'm fine. I think I'm just a little -overwhelmed, I guess - after everything. I'll probably just head home, get some sleep."

"You could use it," Elizabeth replied knowingly.

He chuckled at her, then groaned as he pushed himself upright again. "All right. I'll see you later,then?" he asked her quietly, eyes darkening as they latched onto hers.

"Yeah, I'll come over when we're done," she replied, pressing a chaste kiss to his lips.

As they pulled back, John smirked. Out of the corner of his eye, he had noticed Lorne abruptly turning away, messing with his Droid, presumably to call Cadman.

"Okay, I'll see you."

As he opened his car door, he heard Elizabeth call out to his partner. "We can take my car," she told him, then proceeded to steal his phone away and talk to Laura.

John squinted in the rear view mirror, laughed, and then drove slowly out of the parking garage.

He assumed that the gut wrenching worry would dissipate the further he got from the courthouse. It kept getting stronger, however, and eventually John got paranoid.

About ten minutes away from his apartment, he noticed a tan sedan that seemed to mimic every move he made, turning into the same streets, merging into the same lanes, albeit from a good six car lengths back. When it followed him onto the highway on ramp, he groaned. He started to merge over and, seeing that the three lanes were amazingly devoid of traffic, hit the gas a little harder than normal and got into the far left lane.

When he looked up and noticed the tan car sitting in the right lane, he sighed and groaned inwardly at himself. Really, Sheppard? McKay's the conspiracy nut, not you,he berated himself.

Even after he got off on his exit and parked in the parallel space in front of his building doors, the suspicion that he was being followed didn't go away. He didn't see the car anywhere, but with the afternoon traffic starting to build it would be easy to blend in.

He entered his apartment, quickly changed clothes, and within five minutes he was sitting on the front step, clad entirely in black, save for the blue and grey running shoes on his feet. He double knotted the white laces, then stood up and pulled the thin, black sweatshirt over his head.

Sliding the phone into the case on his arm, he put the ear buds in and glanced up, surveying the immediate area. Still nothing. The feeling wasn't as powerful as it had been, but being ever vigilant he kept raising his eyes every few seconds, looking for anything strange.

He put on his aviator sunglasses, discreetly glancing around one last time. Besides the neighbor who ran with her Chihuahua, dragging the wimpy animal behind her, nothing peculiar at all.

He started the music as he stretched. The play list he had compiled specifically for running was mostly Johnny Cash, with a few other artists thrown in for variety. As he finished warming up and started his run down the sidewalk, the first song, a slow pop song by someone he didn't really recognize, ended and the next one started.

John smiled and mouthed the words to "Solitary Man" as he ran down the length of the block. His normal jog would take him in a circle around his neighborhood, sprinting around the residential blocks until he winded up back at his front door. Altogether, it measured about three miles.

*continued in next post*

[ShipperWriter]

The conclusion:

Spoiler:

After a few minutes, the music started to drown out the doubts running rampant through his mind. Kenmore was in jail, the trial would start soon, and he didn't have anything to worry about anymore. Elizabeth was safe, and the ring that he had begged his brother for was resting safely at home in the safe that not even she knew about.

He had made up his mind quite awhile ago, but with all the chaos that ensued after her abduction the issue of the right time and place had receded to the back of his mind. When she was sitting in the back of the ambulance, getting her cut stitched up by Carson, John had managed to sneak away for a moment and call his brother. The death of his father left Dave the executor of the rather massive estate in the Sheppard family's name, and John had been more than happy to let him do it. They hadn't regularly kept in touch before Patrick died, but they started mending the broken bridges afterwards and Dave and John were almost back to the point in their relationship where they could be open and frank with each other.

John grinned briefly, remembering the look on Dave's face when he had announced his intention to marry Elizabeth. It was a mix of shock, delight, and a few other emotions that reduced his brother to a stuttering mess before unexpectedly gripping John in a tight hug.

He almost forgot what was going on, and time stopped for a moment as the two brothers silently made their peace with each other. Then John cleared his throat and smiled, politely asking for the ring box in his brother's suit pocket.

Once his sister-in-law found out, she smiled serenely at John, giving him a hug and smacking her husband on the arm as he slowly picked his jaw up off the floor. For Dave being as serious and business-minded as he was, he was amazed that Phoebe Sheppard would be so caring and down-to-Earth. I guess opposites do attract,John reflected with a tilt of his head. Phoebe and Elizabeth had gotten along great on the few occasions that they had met, and she told John that she couldn't think of a better match. With a swift kiss on his cheek and a knowing smile at her husband, she left the two brothers in the room.

John nodded at him, with a goofy smile starting to grace his mouth, and told him that yes, he was serious and no, she wasn't pregnant.

After a Scotch in Dave's library, John left with the ring securely resting in his hand and a grin on his face.

He reached a hand up and wiped the sweat off his brow as he rounded the last block, his apartment steps starting to come into view. One of the ear buds fell out, dangling by the wire and lightly slapping John across his chest as he ran the last few steps. The distraction took him out of the zone, changing his focus as he quickly scanned the area.

A gold Mitsubishi was parked across the street, almost parallel to his Charger.

John's eyes narrowed as he recognized the car from before. He cursed silently, realizing that his service weapon was upstairs. He slowed to a trot, walking to the front steps, stomach clenched in knots again.

The figure sitting on the steps smiled at him. "Detective Sheppard," he announced slowly, his tone menacing as he held a nine mil in his right hand.

John wanted to smack himself as the last piece of the puzzle fell into place. It wasn't who he had expected all along, but seeing the young man slouching on the steps, everything made sense.

"Ford."

[Scary Kitty]

ShipperWriter... You're evil. I'm just sayin'.

Joe did say that didn't he? And he's oh so correct. But my question is why didn't the writers look at that and build on it? They claimed they couldn't figure out what to do with the Weir character. Well, Torri certainly had plenty of ideas. Why not listen to her? And don't even get me started on the way they wasted Sheppard.

No kidding. A good writer is willing to change their plans and use what the actors give him. In Carl Binder We Trust.

Ohhh, and you just had to mention how they wasted Sheppard, didn't you? Ignoring the ATA gene, making him look like a dunce when he's supposed to have been Mensa material. Grr.

Speaking of characters who understood each other. What about John and Ronon? I know we'll talk more about them when we revisit S2, but for 2 guys from different galaxies, I thought they meshed pretty well. It must be a guy thing. Bonding over beer, playing sports. Yet when offered, Teyla went out of her way to avoid playing golf with John. I don't get how you could be writing 2 people as romantically interested in each other and have her seem so disinterested in his hobbies. *scratches head* Yet Elizabeth declares herself not a fan of football and we still see John taking every opportunity to just stand next to her on the balcony or sit on her desk for no good reason. Hello writers! Here's your sign.

Yeah, Ronon sure seemed to like golf... once he figured out his own style, of course. And there's always the beer. Ahhh, beeeer.

[mandogater]

Thanks, mandogater, and don't worry ... it usually happens that when the muse reappears, it brings a lot with it to make up for being missing!

You're welcome. Lets hope it makes up for being gone soon because staring at the screen is starting to get to me. Having written for a newpaper for three years I'm not used to having writer's block for this long.

Finally read the chapter you posted ShipperWriter and I have to agree with SK you are evil.

[ShipperWriter]

ShipperWriter... You're evil. I'm just sayin'.

Yes. Yes I am. *cackles*

No kidding. A good writer is willing to change their plans and use what the actors give him. In Carl Binder We Trust.

Ohhh, and you just had to mention how they wasted Sheppard, didn't you? Ignoring the ATA gene, making him look like a dunce when he's supposed to have been Mensa material. Grr.



Yeah, Ronon sure seemed to like golf... once he figured out his own style, of course. And there's always the beer. Ahhh, beeeer.

I love the way Ronan golfs. I do it the same way.

You're welcome. Lets hope it makes up for being gone soon because staring at the screen is starting to get to me. Having written for a newpaper for three years I'm not used to having writer's block for this long.

Finally read the chapter you posted ShipperWriter and I have to agree with SK you are evil.

Eek! Well, I suppose as long as you don't have writer's block on the stories you get paid for, the Sparky muse can be patient.

To be honest, regarding that last chapter, it came out of the blue! I was thinking, how can I calmly wrap this up, and then that came out of nowhere! I realized I hadn't used some of the characters to their full potential. Like some other writers we know.

Heading to bed, long day tomorrow. Next story is almost ready, look for it tomorrow afternoon!

[mandogater]

Eek! Well, I suppose as long as you don't have writer's block on the stories you get paid for, the Sparky muse can be patient.

To be honest, regarding that last chapter, it came out of the blue! I was thinking, how can I calmly wrap this up, and then that came out of nowhere! I realized I hadn't used some of the characters to their full potential. Like some other writers we know.

Heading to bed, long day tomorrow. Next story is almost ready, look for it tomorrow afternoon!

Actually I haven't worked for the paper since 2003.
The crossover my muse as abadoned me on, isn't Sparky persay, I just work it in when and where I can. It has more to do with the two OCs I created for it. The more annoying part is while I can't seem to find a way to complete the chapter I'm on, I keep coming up with ideas for more chapters.

[gateraid]

Awww, I saw that coming as soon as you revealed that he was putting something together. So cute.

We had a great time watching Suspicion yesterday, and during our post-a-thon a number of interesting points came up. So for our discussion this week, let's revisit the ones I can remember some of them.

The Athosians: What did we learn about them? Why did they turn against Teyla? What's with Halling? Did they really want to move to the mainland? Why or why not?

Teyla: Leader of her people? Why did she decide to stay on Atlantis? How could she have explained her motives better to her people? Has she changed her mind about John and Elizabeth?

Inconsistencies: OMG! Discussing this episode is difficult because of the constantly changing minds of just about everyone. Let's look at just a few.

John supports Teyla against his own people and in spite of logic.
John supports Weir instead of Teyla.

Teyla is loyal to her people and knows they are all innocent.
Teyla feels betrayed that her people want to leave.
Teyla gets angry (at least I think she was supposed to be angry) that the Athosians are accused, yet doesn't trust strangers.

And finally, was Bates wrong? Was Elizabeth wrong to support him? Did they handle the questioning well? How about the way she treated John? Could she have handled him better?

Wow, that's a lot. Choose one or many and tell us what you think. You have all week.

I have misplaced my dvd for this (and the next three) ep, so bear in mind my answers are based only on recollection.



It's interesting (to me) to read the blurb for this ep.

When the Atlantis team is ambushed by the Wraith on an off-world trip, Dr. Weir begins to suspect that one of the Athosians is actually a Wraith spy. Despite the disapproval of Teyla and Sheppard, she confines the Athosians to the south side of Atlantis and interviews them. But when the interviews take on an accusatory tone, growing tensions cause a mass exodus of Athosians from the city.


This ep was intended (remember this is early s1, where Weir was meant to be the lone authority figure, and somewhat more clinical in her approach to things) as Weir vs Sheyla. Teyla and Sheppard should have been brought closer together after this ep, whether that was via his stoic defence of her and the Athosians throughout the ep, or via his comforting of her when they left. So, it failed on those counts, but at five eps in, the relationship misstep shouldn't have been fatal.

Teyla stayed because ultimately she believed in the cause. What a pity this wasn't elaborated on. Imagine the potential gold (relationship, or gen story) of a scene where Teyla tells Shep she doesn't know whether to go with the Athosians, and is torn between what she believes is best for her people and people in general (staying on Atlantis and killing the Wraith) or what is best for her 'position' (going with the Athosians and remaining their leader), with him telling her that that is basically the premise of their entire expediton (the betterment of mankind).

Bates was used as a relatively small sheyla anvil in this ep. It's not the size that counts, it's what you do with it. Not much, as it turned out. The "personal feelings" line is practically a red herring. Feelings over right and wrong (the treatment of Teyla by everyone else), or romantic feelings? You could argue either way here because it was never elaborated on. Bates was out of line (for his borderline bigoted behaviour, his disrespect to his CO, and his lack of contrition when it turned out he was wrong) in his behaviour, but he was right to be suspicious. Still, I appreciated that the writers had attempted to bring in a bit more conflict than they had seemed to be willing to do with SG-1. Here, it isn't a he's right/you're wrong situation, there's a bit more grey.

The Athosian culture seemed at that stage (what happened during s4??) to be based partly on spirituality, and reverence towards the Ancients. I guess it's understandable that they would be aghast when the member of the expedition didn't hold the Ancients, or their customs, in the same regard - even to the point of living in their city as if it were their own. How the Athosians must have laughed when the Ancients came back and booted them out of the city. Even that is another missed opportunity - the Athosians chiding Teyla over her decision to stay with the Terrans, whom the Ancients deemed unworthy to stay in the city upon their return.

I thought they were being deliberately vague as to the leadership of the Athosians after they left the city. For practical purposes, it would have been Halling. I guess Teyla would have just been a figurehead from that point onwards, or more like the Chairman of a corporation - involved in governance but not management. I don't think we were meant to think that deeply about it, we were just meant to accept that they'd gone and would come back sporadically (when the script deemed it neccessary). They never seemed to have a firm grasp of who the Athosians really were - be it culturally or otherwise. There was a scene in Hide & Seek that made me laugh. Teyla lights the candle from the other side of the room, and the VFX looks decidely like a phaser. Huh? How can you make an energy based tool with enough precision to shoot something as small as a wick, yet not think it might make a nifty 'gun'?


Any other comment I make (specifically the tone of the interviews, and the John/Elizabeth/Teyla dynamic) would risk being even more inaccurate than what I've mentioned above

[gateraid]

Maybe the fact that the actors clicked so quickly is the reason the characters seemed to have relationships beyond the bad writing. I know that Joe has said numerous times that his scenes with Torri were among his favorites because he seldom got one on one scenes of any length with anyone else. And we know about their little political discussions, so that adds to it also. I've heard that Rachel and David became good friends also, along with various other off work combinations. I know that must have added to the screen chemistry.

All of that is probably true.

But, if we pretend we don't know anything about what was going on behind the scenes, we see a lot of missing parts that, understandably, were too trivial to actually cover on screen. Though a line here or there would have helped explain the McShep friendship, why Ford did such an about face and now seems to idolize John, why Teyla went from trusting her new friends completely to suspicious and confused by their treatment, and maybe how Carson is kind of the center around which they all revolve.

Yes! It doesn't have to be a deep dramatic scene, but the odd line would've helped a LOT

I would like to have seen mention of an Athosian assimilation project, perhaps headed by Heightmeyer, along with a cultural sensitivity *barfs at the politically correct term* seminar, perhaps conducted by Teyla, explaining their culture to the others. Again, a line of dialogue would have sufficed.

What was in your cup of tea this morning? Could you give me the recipie? These are all good ideas

[Southern Red]

I have misplaced my dvd for this (and the next three) ep, so bear in mind my answers are based only on recollection.



It's interesting (to me) to read the blurb for this ep.

When the Atlantis team is ambushed by the Wraith on an off-world trip, Dr. Weir begins to suspect that one of the Athosians is actually a Wraith spy. Despite the disapproval of Teyla and Sheppard, she confines the Athosians to the south side of Atlantis and interviews them. But when the interviews take on an accusatory tone, growing tensions cause a mass exodus of Athosians from the city.


This ep was intended (remember this is early s1, where Weir was meant to be the lone authority figure, and somewhat more clinical in her approach to things) as Weir vs Sheyla. Teyla and Sheppard should have been brought closer together after this ep, whether that was via his stoic defence of her and the Athosians throughout the ep, or via his comforting of her when they left. So, it failed on those counts, but at five eps in, the relationship misstep shouldn't have been fatal.

Teyla stayed because ultimately she believed in the cause. What a pity this wasn't elaborated on. Imagine the potential gold (relationship, or gen story) of a scene where Teyla tells Shep she doesn't know whether to go with the Athosians, and is torn between what she believes is best for her people and people in general (staying on Atlantis and killing the Wraith) or what is best for her 'position' (going with the Athosians and remaining their leader), with him telling her that that is basically the premise of their entire expediton (the betterment of mankind).

Bates was used as a relatively small sheyla anvil in this ep. It's not the size that counts, it's what you do with it. Not much, as it turned out. The "personal feelings" line is practically a red herring. Feelings over right and wrong (the treatment of Teyla by everyone else), or romantic feelings? You could argue either way here because it was never elaborated on. Bates was out of line (for his borderline bigoted behaviour, his disrespect to his CO, and his lack of contrition when it turned out he was wrong) in his behaviour, but he was right to be suspicious. Still, I appreciated that the writers had attempted to bring in a bit more conflict than they had seemed to be willing to do with SG-1. Here, it isn't a he's right/you're wrong situation, there's a bit more grey.

The Athosian culture seemed at that stage (what happened during s4??) to be based partly on spirituality, and reverence towards the Ancients. I guess it's understandable that they would be aghast when the member of the expedition didn't hold the Ancients, or their customs, in the same regard - even to the point of living in their city as if it were their own. How the Athosians must have laughed when the Ancients came back and booted them out of the city. Even that is another missed opportunity - the Athosians chiding Teyla over her decision to stay with the Terrans, whom the Ancients deemed unworthy to stay in the city upon their return.

I thought they were being deliberately vague as to the leadership of the Athosians after they left the city. For practical purposes, it would have been Halling. I guess Teyla would have just been a figurehead from that point onwards, or more like the Chairman of a corporation - involved in governance but not management. I don't think we were meant to think that deeply about it, we were just meant to accept that they'd gone and would come back sporadically (when the script deemed it neccessary). They never seemed to have a firm grasp of who the Athosians really were - be it culturally or otherwise. There was a scene in Hide & Seek that made me laugh. Teyla lights the candle from the other side of the room, and the VFX looks decidely like a phaser. Huh? How can you make an energy based tool with enough precision to shoot something as small as a wick, yet not think it might make a nifty 'gun'?


Any other comment I make (specifically the tone of the interviews, and the John/Elizabeth/Teyla dynamic) would risk being even more inaccurate than what I've mentioned above

Your recollection is very good. I just saw it on Sunday and can't remember half of it. That little blurb is also very interesting, and somewhat inaccurate. It reminds me of the discussions of some of the TV Guide blurbs that were so very misleading. Like the one for Conversion talking about how Teyla and John's relationship was going to "change." LOL That one gave me a good laugh.

Anyway, as we discussed earlier, the opinions of various characters changed like the wind in this ep. John first supported Teyla and was a bit irked at Elizabeth for the questioning and so on, but later he took her side and told Teyla in no uncertain terms that he supported Elizabeth's decision. Seems like to me if they wanted a romance to bloom, this was the exact opposite of what they should have done. It was like they kept trying to point us toward Sheyla, but nobody was buying it. After a while, it's like they just forgot it. And, from what I hear, Joe and Rachel were never looped into their plans. Maybe that explains why John and Teyla seemed to ignore each other for most of S2. Just my opinion as a viewer, of course. I know others think differently and I'm okay with that.

You are right on all counts that they dropped the ball on Sheyla here. Where were the little secret looks between them confirming the "personal feelings" comment? Why did they have the scene with her telling Elizabeth she agreed with her and understood her decision? Shouldn't that have been a Sheyla scene to confirm the coming "romance?" Bates was indeed a big 'ol Sheyla anvil, if you chose to view some of the things he said as foreshadowing, but after he's gone, nobody else takes up the cause. Bad writing if that's your intent.

The Athosians were becoming a writing problem, I think and needed to be dispensed with until needed. But their culture was clearly defined in Suspicion and again in CM and in bits and pieces here and there. They were, as you said, spiritual and thought highly of the Ancestors. I'm wondering if the way they were treated in Return I might have changed that. Again the writers dropped the ball. From Hide and Seek we learned they have family units and don't necessarily adhere to the "it takes a village" philosophy because we saw them huddled with their immediate family groups and clearly defined as "Father/Son" units. I'm thinking marriage was sacred and children were welcomed. In some cultures just sharing a tent with someone is as good as a marriage ceremony, so maybe that's the case here. Though, as structured as they were with tea ceremonies and death ceremonies, I'm thinking there would be some sort of wedding. In TOR, Teyla mentions the Athosian Counsel, so that adds a bit to the idea of the leadership of the group. But we never learn more.

And yeah, they have that little bit of technology left over from the glory days, but still live in tents. Logic was a mystery to these writers.

All of that is probably true.



Yes! It doesn't have to be a deep dramatic scene, but the odd line would've helped a LOT



What was in your cup of tea this morning? Could you give me the recipie? These are all good ideas

I drink my morning coffee from a mug that says "I love flavored tea, as long as the flavor is "very strong coffee." LOL My coffee is a 50/50 mix of hazelnut and hazelnut decaf at the moment, and I also like many other flavors. I grind my own beans and drink about 7 cups. There's no hair on my chest, yet.

I do love herbal tea, but that's for the afternoon. I don't claim that either one of them helps me think clearly.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

On the fic front, the muses have abandoned me again. Argh.

I love the way Ronan golfs. I do it the same way.

It's interesting (to me) to read the blurb for this ep.

When the Atlantis team is ambushed by the Wraith on an off-world trip, Dr. Weir begins to suspect that one of the Athosians is actually a Wraith spy. Despite the disapproval of Teyla and Sheppard, she confines the Athosians to the south side of Atlantis and interviews them. But when the interviews take on an accusatory tone, growing tensions cause a mass exodus of Athosians from the city.

Curious. Where did this this blurb come from? I didn't look too closely at the summary on the Blu-ray, but I'm pretty sure the inaccurate "disapproval of Teyla and Sheppard" part isn't there. Looks like someone at MGM was paying attention when they made up the new disc menus.

Teyla stayed because ultimately she believed in the cause. What a pity this wasn't elaborated on. Imagine the potential gold (relationship, or gen story) of a scene where Teyla tells Shep she doesn't know whether to go with the Athosians, and is torn between what she believes is best for her people and people in general (staying on Atlantis and killing the Wraith) or what is best for her 'position' (going with the Athosians and remaining their leader), with him telling her that that is basically the premise of their entire expediton (the betterment of mankind).

...

The Athosian culture seemed at that stage (what happened during s4??) to be based partly on spirituality, and reverence towards the Ancients. I guess it's understandable that they would be aghast when the member of the expedition didn't hold the Ancients, or their customs, in the same regard - even to the point of living in their city as if it were their own. How the Athosians must have laughed when the Ancients came back and booted them out of the city. Even that is another missed opportunity - the Athosians chiding Teyla over her decision to stay with the Terrans, whom the Ancients deemed unworthy to stay in the city upon their return.

At least we finally started covering those issues in Atlantis Rising. Better late than never, right?

The Athosians were becoming a writing problem, I think and needed to be dispensed with until needed. But their culture was clearly defined in Suspicion and again in CM and in bits and pieces here and there. They were, as you said, spiritual and thought highly of the Ancestors. I'm wondering if the way they were treated in Return I might have changed that. Again the writers dropped the ball. From Hide and Seek we learned they have family units and don't necessarily adhere to the "it takes a village" philosophy because we saw them huddled with their immediate family groups and clearly defined as "Father/Son" units. I'm thinking marriage was sacred and children were welcomed. In some cultures just sharing a tent with someone is as good as a marriage ceremony, so maybe that's the case here. Though, as structured as they were with tea ceremonies and death ceremonies, I'm thinking there would be some sort of wedding. In TOR, Teyla mentions the Athosian Counsel, so that adds a bit to the idea of the leadership of the group. But we never learn more.

And yeah, they have that little bit of technology left over from the glory days, but still live in tents. Logic was a mystery to these writers.

I vaguely recalled there was a bit of a throwaway line about that in The Return Part 1, so I dug around in the transcript and found it in the scene where Teyla and Ronon check on Sheppard while he's packing to leave:

SHEPPARD: How’s that going, by the way? Are the Ancients allowing the Athosians to stay on the mainland?

TEYLA (smiling ruefully): They have found a suitable planet for us to relocate to -- one with our own Stargate.

SHEPPARD: How’d that go down?

TEYLA: It was not the homecoming of the Ancestors my people envisioned.

Ouch. Sounds like there's some hard feelings to be had on that score.

I drink my morning coffee from a mug that says "I love flavored tea, as long as the flavor is "very strong coffee." LOL My coffee is a 50/50 mix of hazelnut and hazelnut decaf at the moment, and I also like many other flavors. I grind my own beans and drink about 7 cups. There's no hair on my chest, yet.

I do love herbal tea, but that's for the afternoon. I don't claim that either one of them helps me think clearly.

Mmmm, coffee.

[poundpuppy29]