Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

On to part two. I have lots to say.

Shhhh. Someone might call you ignorant or even racist for saying something like that. One must not offend polyamorous nomads because they know how to live their lifes without silly culturological restraints we Earthlings suffer from.

On a serious note, here's one thing that always bugged me. Just how advanced ARE Athosians? I haven't seen eps in a while (I'm planning a rewatch) but from what I remember they live in tents, grow plants and hunt for food. I don't remember seeing technology of any sort in their settlemnts, minus that wraith pendant Teyla thought was jewlery. Could it be said then that they can't tell a piece of technology from a non - technological object? Especially if their, ahem, leader, can't tell the difference?

Also, it wasn't explained who built that ruined city on Athos. Athosians? If they did at some point of time, then why were they living in tents? Also, is there just one tribe of Athosians in whole Pegasus? And how many are there? I didn't get the impression there were many of them, which probably caused some problems of practical nature when it came to marriages and procreation. Which kind of blows away the polyamorous nomads thing, because if you don't keep it staright with whom you slept and whose baby you had and who is your close relative you could end up with serious genetic problems. Just sayin'. I doubt they would practice the polyamorous mentality then.

I got some info here about the Athosians and there was another entry that I can't find now that said they had to be very welcoming of outsiders to protect the gene pool. That would make sense in a way because they did welcome Ronon into the fold and would solve the inbreeding problem. Yet it conflicts with their fierce "nationalism" for lack of a better more educated term that I snurched from Sociology.

Marrying among other Pegasus nationalities seems reasonable, but I have a feeling the Athosians are pretty strict when it coms to not abandoning your original group. Remeber how Teyla is all about mypeoplemypeopleMYFREAKINPEOPLE. Which possibly means whoever married a Athosian also becomes an Athosian (which is another reason why I just don't see John with Teyla. He picked a side at the very beginning, in 'Suspicion' andit wasn't Athosan side. I higly doubt he would become one. Hey, don't glare at me. It's canon. )

This behavior contradicts the theory I mentioned above yet makes sense if you go by the idea that joining the "tribe" makes you an Athosian. There may even be a ceremony to honor newcomers. Interesting idea. But if the new member is required to denounce their former people, it may not work. I can't picture Ronon standing up and declaring he is no longer a Satedan. So it may all be very casual.

John also left in The Return 1 because the Air Force said he had to. He could easily have resigned his commission and stayed.

On safe sex, I wouldn't say they don't know how to protect themselves from unwated pregnancies. Many old cultures from Earth had a very good idea about preventing pregnancies. Do you know that Ancient Egyptians used condoms? Granted, those weren't as efficient as modern ones, but I wouldn't assume that Athosians are completely unaware of how procreation works. Not advnaced doesn't equate to being completely ignorant. (that still doesn't prove they're polyamorous nomads, lol).

I'm reading a book now set in colonial America that told me more than I ever wanted to know about reusable condoms made of sheep's gut. OMG. Anyway, since Teyla got pregnant by accident when she passed Kanaan in the food line one day, they must be a fertile people. Birth control would be a must unless they need babiez to sacrifice to the Wraith. Which would make as much sense as the polyamorous stuff. *sarcastic roll of the eyes*

Also, if Athosians (obviously) don't use technology, how much of a treat are they to Wraith? "My people are strong and proud" and they're fierce warriors yadda yadda yadda is all nice, but you can't really go to fight with couple of sticks against space vampyres with stunners. Just few things that bother me when Athosians are in question.

IMO, they are not technologically advanced and rely on farming, hunting and hiding strategies when Wraith hunt them down. I doubt they actuall fight against wraith. They are obviously traders, and trading for information probably helps them stay safe and hidden/avoid the Wraight (which is simply my assumption, because it wasn't mentioned in canon, but tell me - how logical it is for a relatively small group of people to stay on the sameplanet, relatively unprotected and not move when they learn the Wraith are about to strike? Then again, if the Wraith attacks happened once in fifty years....).
I assume Athosians have useful connections, specially for trading for crops and other kinds of food, but on large scale of things? I doubt they're big players in Pegasus.

I think you just justified the nomad status, but aside from living in tents, I don't see any evidence of nomadic life. They had obviously been on Athos a long time. They planted crops which would make them semi-nomadic at best. They were a relatively primitive farming/hunting culture in my views. And since it's another galaxy, Earth sociology doesn't apply. They're a conglomerate of many types of societies. But canon shows them to be structured, family oriented, relatively religious, reserved in behavior regarding courtship and fairly ritualistic.

The problem I've always had with the Athosians (and the pegasus natives in general) is that even after a culling, it's not like their knowledge base has completely disappeared. Earth didn't revert to the 1800's after WWI & WWII.

Didn't they say the Pegasus natives stayed relatively un-technological so as not to attract the Wraith?

I'm also not sure on the lineage of the Athosians. In The Gift, we learn that the Athosians actually split in two, when the group that the Wraith had experimented on were expelled from the rest of the community. I got the general impression that the Athosians were a much larger population, perhaps spread out over quite a few settlements.

I never thought about that. I always thought they were just what we saw depending on how many extras they could afford. LOL In The Rising there were quite a few tents in the settlement so that was a pretty good group.

It really irks me, mostly because of the double standard (and Torri does not look old). From what I've observed, the people that say Weir looks too old for Shep use that as a justification for a Shep/Teyla pairing. Teyla is supposed to quite a bit younger than John (and I find Teyla looks older than Rachel, that wig ages her). But age is a secondary issue anyway.



Which, given how important the Wraith are to the show, you'd think we'd know.

Joe certainly thinks age doesn't matter considering what he said on Friday. LOL

It was always a bit of a grey area - she was the leader of her people, but left them. They never actually said who was in charge after that (presumably it was Halling, but he was the only other one we actually heard about).

As for maturity, Teyla is very mature. It seems she had a lot of responsibility from a young age.



Not to me. It's an illogical arguement IMO. There's a lot more to compatability than age

At one point, I forget when, they talked about an Athosian council.

[gateraid]

Emphasis on the word considerably.

Quite. Hopefully this is a storm in a teacup and the novels are similar to the show.

I noticed that at times he sort of leaned against Carter and Woolsey's desks but never actually sat. Now I wonder if that was a conscious choice. You know how paranoid these people were about things looking shippy.

Carter had obviously heard about the desk sitting and brought those big armchairs with her for John to sit on

Oh, my dear, another element in the new novels is that Torren is not Teyla's first child. So I'm sure all the little kiddies got culled. LOL

Huh? So much for sticking to canon. I suppose we don't actually know, since it's never specifically been stated, but I imagine it's the type of thing Teyla might mention.

Oh yes, and obviously Teyla is crushed by loosing all her little kiddies and looks for comfort in John's arms... and since she's polyamorous, in every other men's arms... maybe with some women too

The irony in what you've said is that Rachel & Claire have really good chemistry (they are friends outside of the show), I could see that ship happening

On to part two. I have lots to say.



I got some info here about the Athosians and there was another entry that I can't find now that said they had to be very welcoming of outsiders to protect the gene pool. That would make sense in a way because they did welcome Ronon into the fold and would solve the inbreeding problem. Yet it conflicts with their fierce "nationalism" for lack of a better more educated term that I snurched from Sociology.

It makes sense. Even a population of a few hundred would run into some gene pool issues without new 'blood'

This behavior contradicts the theory I mentioned above yet makes sense if you go by the idea that joining the "tribe" makes you an Athosian. There may even be a ceremony to honor newcomers. Interesting idea. But if the new member is required to denounce their former people, it may not work. I can't picture Ronon standing up and declaring he is no longer a Satedan. So it may all be very casual.

Or it could be like here, where you move to a new town, are accepted, but aren't known as a local for another twenty years

I'm reading a book now set in colonial America that told me more than I ever wanted to know about reusable condoms made of sheep's gut. OMG. Anyway, since Teyla got pregnant by accident when she passed Kanaan in the food line one day, they must be a fertile people. Birth control would be a must unless they need babiez to sacrifice to the Wraith. Which would make as much sense as the polyamorous stuff. *sarcastic roll of the eyes*

Logically, you'd think that the 'goal', for lack of a better word, would be for each family to have three or four kids, in case some got eaten. That way the population would actually grow. This doesn't appear to be the case.

I think you just justified the nomad status, but aside from living in tents, I don't see any evidence of nomadic life. They had obviously been on Athos a long time. They planted crops which would make them semi-nomadic at best. They were a relatively primitive farming/hunting culture in my views. And since it's another galaxy, Earth sociology doesn't apply. They're a conglomerate of many types of societies. But canon shows them to be structured, family oriented, relatively religious, reserved in behavior regarding courtship and fairly ritualistic.

Crops indicate that they have to be in one place for at least a year. I guess the Wraith can't be that smart - they'd only need to look for the giant field of wheat, potatoes, etc.....

Didn't they say the Pegasus natives stayed relatively un-technological so as not to attract the Wraith?

Yes. But then in s5 they hinted there are other natives that are advanced *shrugs*

I never thought about that. I always thought they were just what we saw depending on how many extras they could afford. LOL In The Rising there were quite a few tents in the settlement so that was a pretty good group.

That was my interpretation too (the cost of the extras). Otherwise it seems like the Athosians are a group of about twenty people. In some of the eps, there appear to be a good number of tents.

At one point, I forget when, they talked about an Athosian council.

That makes sense, even if they don't have laws etc as such

[Probie]

All those things about the new books make me laugh.
Soon, we will learn that Teyla is a man but she/he did an operation. John is 15 years old. Torren is the father of Teyla but he has a strange Athosian disease so he's stay a baby. Ronon is the brother of Conan. Carson is not dead but just god. McKay is the sexual slave of Carter. Weir is a hallucination since the beginning. Kanaan is the brother of Teyla but he doesn't know and all the Athosians are members of a "maison close" or "brothel" (little rude here).
If the books are like this, I'm alsmot ready to buy it just for fun.lol

[Southern Red]

All those things about the new books make me laugh.
Soon, we will learn that Teyla is a man but she/he did an operation. John is 15 years old. Torren is the father of Teyla but he has a strange Athosian disease so he's stay a baby. Ronon is the brother of Conan. Carson is not dead but just god. McKay is the sexual slave of Carter. Weir is a hallucination since the beginning. Kanaan is the brother of Teyla but he doesn't know and all the Athosians are members of a "maison close" or "brothel" (little rude here).
If the books are like this, I'm alsmot ready to buy it just for fun.lol

That would make a good crack!fic. LOL

But I'm afraid I haven't heard anything yet that will make me spend good money on any books when I can get the best fanfic around for free.

What are you getting me for Mother's Day?

[Anuna]

Oh, i forgot not the first child thing. OUR LOVELY AUTHOR TOTALLY MADE THAT UP. That is not canon. That hasn't been mentioned, and even if it was true, what does it have to do with her and John getting together? She had several kids, so having kids is no big deal, hey there's a hot guy there! *jumps him* LOL.

Quoting SR - But canon shows them to be structured, family oriented, relatively religious, reserved in behavior regarding courtship and fairly ritualistic.

Yes exactly. Now, those are all trademarks of a very traditionalist and conservative society. There is no proof in canon that they're sexually liberal, but in the contrary, Teyla seems very reluctant to pursue her romantic interest - we saw that in Sunday, which makes it canon.

One could say that we can't use Earth sociology, rules and understanding, because all what we know doesn't have to apply to Athosians, because they are an alien culture. (however, if all we know of cultures, society, families and close relationships simply doesn't apply for Athosians, then how on Earth is someone whow as born in a modern, western society supposed to live in a world where nothing he knows or values applies? He is bound to go bananas in my not so humble opinion). Also, if Earth rules don't apply, then all the arguments made based on earth sociology simply aren't valid. Which leads us back to canon, and from canon we know exactly what I have quoted above, and SR had so well put together into one line. You can't use sociology to twist the canon according to your preferences and then tell someone else that earth rules etc just aren't valid. Make up your mind. it's either valid or not.

Using the common sense (I wonder if I have any of it left!) I think the theory of accepting newcommers into their tribe sounds plausible. However, those newcommers have to be trusted - correct me if I'm wrong, but Teyla wasn't exactly forthcoming to John and Sumner when they first arrived (of course a few bad Erath - jokes knocked her off her feet. Now whos ays Earth rules don't apply? lol.). The newcommers would be accepted as a part of the group and expected to behave like members of the tribe. Also, gateraid's idea about several tribes scattered around several planets isn't bad at all - actually that may be the most logical explanation to genetic problems of Athosians. They marry between the tribes and don't need to be so open to other Pegasus nationalities.


Sorry JG. logic wins.

[Fionnait]

I got so caught up in the polyamorous part of that statement I forgot that they're really not nomads. I'll have more to add on that later.

This is all I have to say in regards to this topic:

Spoiler:

[Probie]

Oh you used a french singer. Nice.

[VampyreWraith]

Good morning Sparkies

On the polyamorous nomads (my gosh, I even know how to write it now): it's weird that when they're polyamorous, Haling only has one son an Teyla doesn't have a whole bunch of kids running around when the SGA team runs into them. Because, well, nomads with such low living standards and low technology wouldn't know a way to have "save" sex, would they?

Wait you didn't know about Halling's Harem, Halling not only has many lovers amoung the athosians, but across the galaxy amoung the athosians various trading partners. Seriously i never saw the athosians as nomads they were farmers, and hunters and traders, and just because they didnt have stone buildings, didnt mean that their settlements werent permenant, it could just means that they were smart and didn't want to attract the attention of the wraith by building really cool big buildings that the wraith could destroy, and if they moved after a culling doesnt make them nomadic either. it just means they have common sense and basic survival instincts not to be in the same place the next time the wraith come by. Besides the athosians thought the ancestors were going to come back and get rid of the wraith for them so they didnt see a need to advance technologically beyond whatever they needed to meet there needs.

[Southern Red]

Oh, i forgot not the first child thing. OUR LOVELY AUTHOR TOTALLY MADE THAT UP. That is not canon. That hasn't been mentioned, and even if it was true, what does it have to do with her and John getting together? She had several kids, so having kids is no big deal, hey there's a hot guy there! *jumps him* LOL.

Quoting SR - But canon shows them to be structured, family oriented, relatively religious, reserved in behavior regarding courtship and fairly ritualistic.

Yes exactly. Now, those are all trademarks of a very traditionalist and conservative society. There is no proof in canon that they're sexually liberal, but in the contrary, Teyla seems very reluctant to pursue her romantic interest - we saw that in Sunday, which makes it canon.

One could say that we can't use Earth sociology, rules and understanding, because all what we know doesn't have to apply to Athosians, because they are an alien culture. (however, if all we know of cultures, society, families and close relationships simply doesn't apply for Athosians, then how on Earth is someone whow as born in a modern, western society supposed to live in a world where nothing he knows or values applies? He is bound to go bananas in my not so humble opinion). Also, if Earth rules don't apply, then all the arguments made based on earth sociology simply aren't valid. Which leads us back to canon, and from canon we know exactly what I have quoted above, and SR had so well put together into one line. You can't use sociology to twist the canon according to your preferences and then tell someone else that earth rules etc just aren't valid. Make up your mind. it's either valid or not.

Using the common sense (I wonder if I have any of it left!) I think the theory of accepting newcommers into their tribe sounds plausible. However, those newcommers have to be trusted - correct me if I'm wrong, but Teyla wasn't exactly forthcoming to John and Sumner when they first arrived (of course a few bad Erath - jokes knocked her off her feet. Now whos ays Earth rules don't apply? lol.). The newcommers would be accepted as a part of the group and expected to behave like members of the tribe. Also, gateraid's idea about several tribes scattered around several planets isn't bad at all - actually that may be the most logical explanation to genetic problems of Athosians. They marry between the tribes and don't need to be so open to other Pegasus nationalities.


Sorry JG. logic wins.

There is no logic to it. The only thing that works is starting from canon and building on from there. Actually, we know quite a lot about the Athosians from S1. Even in S4, Missing gave us some new facts about how the settlement is set up with the caches of weapons, etc. You got the feeling that TPTB just threw in ideas when they felt like it...the ground squid for example. Yech. But some things like family ties, ceremonies (they seemed to have one for just about everything) and rituals were consistent throughout. And if you're going to use the fact that they are in another galaxy as a convenient way to explain away things you don't like, why not just say the problem of inbreeding didn't exist in their DNA?

Oh you used a french singer. Nice.

Hello little daughter. You didn't answer my question about Mother's Day. I'm sad to be neglected on this special day.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday! Though it seems that y'all have been far from lazy, you've been burning up the thread! Whoo Hoo!

How did you manage that? My sister has fallen down the stairs at least three times (at different workplaces) that I'm aware of, once when she was walking up the stairs. Hope your toe is okay

It all happened so fast that I'm not quite sure what happened, but I think I tripped over my own feet on the very last step before the bottom, so my feet slipped out from under me and I twisted my big toe as I did one of those sit-down-on-my-butt falls. Irritating, to say the least. I was at home, so I got some ice on it right away and kept icing it throughout the evening until bedtime. It looks like I just pulled a muscle/ligaments, so it's kinda stiff and there's only just a little bit of swelling. I think it'll be okay.

It's been a while since I've seen it. They must've been there a good while if there were those drawings. Although you'd wonder how often the Wraith actually culled, given that Teyla only 'believed' it was periodically. Fifty years or so? So the Athosians must've been a bit more technologically advanced to have built a 'city'. Maybe not on the level of the Hoffans, but more than what they were.

As I recall, back in Rising, Teyla told Sheppard that the last great culling on Athos occurred "five generations ago." So how long is a generation? We generally define it as being the period of time between birth to those children growing up and having their own children. For those of us in the Western world, that's about 25-30 years, but it's typically shorter for less advanced societies. Ballpark, I'd say it happened somewhere around 100-150 years ago.

@gateraid - just steal away! Hey I wonder why he's so fascinated with her and insisting to sit so close. (maybe he's looking for signs of aging, lol?)

Bottom line, you don't look like that at someone whom you don't find hot.

WORD.

I could be objective (or open up a packet of killjoy) and say its because it's easier for the cameraman to get the two-shot when he's sitting on the desk as opposed to being further away. But that would imply they've had the discussion and been told to invade each other's personal space by TPTW.

That leaves the only logical conclusion, Joe thinks Shep is crushing on Weir. What?

Damn right Joe thinks John is crushing on Lizzie.

Elizabeth doesn't seem at all older than Sheppard IMHO, but if she did ... does it matter?
We're in 2010 for crying out loud! Do really age, race, even gender still matter? I don't think so.
Sheppard and Weir are meant to be. Period.

And stealing Steve Perry's song title:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4...artsforeve.jpg

Young hearts forever
Don't wait one moment in time
Love is forever
(with somebody like you, yeah)
The young hearts survive

They are meant to be, damnit. And whee, another lovely pic!

Surprisingly, NZ actually won a game at the world cup. I wish I'd put money on that.

And to get the thread vaguely back on topic

Spoiler:

[ATTACH]26076[/ATTACH]
And then, he moved behind me and started to....
STOP!! I don't know why you're telling me this Elizabeth
Because I think I might've fused a disc in my back. I'm stuck in this position Carson

*cackles* You've still got the touch!

I think you just justified the nomad status, but aside from living in tents, I don't see any evidence of nomadic life. They had obviously been on Athos a long time. They planted crops which would make them semi-nomadic at best. They were a relatively primitive farming/hunting culture in my views. And since it's another galaxy, Earth sociology doesn't apply. They're a conglomerate of many types of societies. But canon shows them to be structured, family oriented, relatively religious, reserved in behavior regarding courtship and fairly ritualistic.

So much for the 'polyamorous' part of the equation.

[Probie]

SR: Oups sorry mom. I already have a problem with the real one.lol
What can I give you? All my love.....
Maybe this can be enough

Gravity

Scene 1

Scene 2

Scene 3

Scene 4

There are so many scenes. I can't take all of them or I will post the whole show.lol

And the last ones

Souvenir

Funny parallelism between two ships......I'm evil so I will say that we can more "sparkles" with our ship.

Are you happy mom?

[Scary Kitty]

There's a yummy new Sparky fluff fic to read!

Definitely Not Brotherly, by quiet_jay. Set after Irresistible... John drags Elizabeth out of her office for movies. Fluffiness ensues.

Happy Sparky Reading!

[Scary Kitty]

Souvenir

Oh, it's been a while since I saw that one! Heeheehee! Be sure to read the comments, too. There's one that says, "He keeps looking at her like he's been waiting the whole time for the right moment. xD" Hahahahah!

[Probie]

Oh, it's been a while since I saw that one! Heeheehee! Be sure to read the comments, too. There's one that says, "He keeps looking at her like he's been waiting the whole time for the right moment. xD" Hahahahah!

Funny thing it's the fact that Joe loves to tease fans.

[Southern Red]

SR: Oups sorry mom. I already have a problem with the real one.lol
What can I give you? All my love.....
Maybe this can be enough

Gravity

Scene 1

Scene 2

Scene 3

Scene 4

There are so many scenes. I can't take all of them or I will post the whole show.lol

And the last ones

Souvenir

Funny parallelism between two ships......I'm evil so I will say that we can more "sparkles" with our ship.

Are you happy mom?

Oh wow! That was the best Mother's Day present I ever got. Don't tell SR Jr. *hugs and kisses you*

The vid was an eyesex extravaganza. Who can look at that and deny the Sparky?