Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

OMG! I can't even... I just...OMG. *goes to rewatch*

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction. Hot damn!

In other news, I won't be here tomorrow as I'll be at Disneyland in the morning and watching the Iron Man movie marathon in the afternoon and evening. So I'll see you all on Friday! That is, assuming I've recovered from the overload of Iron Man awesomeness.

[gateraid]

Quoting seems to be working in limited capacity for me and this is my third attempt today to respond

GUP even showed that John could work with the scientists and that he knew their names. I thought it was neat that we got to see what he was capable of without Rodney. It just pointed up how good John was in dealing with Rodney and how he could goad him into coming up with the perfect solution. Plus, the chocolate and peanut butter scene is just perfection.

^ this. John proved that he could pretty much work with anyone (at least to me). His interactions with Zelenka were completely different to with Rodney, but he got the same results out of both men.

Good points all. I just have a few general comments. I think a lot depends on who is your favorite character. I like John. I make no bones about it, and it's not just some fangirly OMGHE'SHAWT! thing. Though I admit to a bit of that also. Even though it makes me squicky when I occasionally wander into some of the threads or areas on LJ that only seem to see him as a collection of body parts. If someone criticizes John or Joe, I get my back up. But that doesn't mean I don't like all the others too, some more than others and some could disappear forever and I wouldn't blink, but I try not to express that opinion in public.

But if there is a discussion of John's fear of intimacy or his social awkwardness or his rash behavior, I'm right there to try to explain it. However, I don't see that as bashing.

I make no bones about liking the big three (Shep/Weir/McKay). But even within that, I wish they had dialled Rodney back a bit (quite a bit as the series went on) in terms of exposure. While everyone's characterisations were different in s1, John always seemed 'cooler' to me then - more like someone I'd want to be like.

Let's face it, after S3 the total focus of these writers was McKay and/or Keller. They didn't think for a second about how they could give anyone else more time. It was all "Okay, enough about McKay. Now let's talk about how Keller feels about McKay." or something to that effect. Keller even took Teyla's place as the damsel in distress, and instead of focusing on Teyla's new motherhood and her people, they just ignored her. Because, I believe, they were saving her to spring Sheyla on us and befuddle the entire viewing audience.

The motherhood/athosians/leadership issues are so important to Teyla - just look at how much material has been spun out of that in SGA Rising. I've always wondered how much of the fazing out of the Athosians was due to budgetary reasons (hiring all those extras) and how much was due to laziness. But yeah - Keller was the new toy.

I would have been okay with Sheyla (with some covenants of course) in s4, but they'd really have to twist themselves into knots to make it believable in s5.

On Sam, the biggest remaining question is why they didn't write for Sam but continued to write for Weir and have Sam deliver the lines. I liked her in S&R too except for the leather suit and how she let John steamroll her. She was good in directing the rescue mission. I can't see Woolsey doing that. However, you're right. Now that I've adjusted to him, I can't see Woolsey leaving and anyone else, including Weir, taking that job. Mostly because I don't want her to be John's boss again, but still, he did a fine job. I can also see Daniel Jackson fitting into the show, but would rather have Weir come back and take a similar role.

Yeah that Carter/Sheppard discussion didn't play too well. It made her look like a pushover, and a bit stuuupid for not sending a few more people with them - or going herself. Woolsey turned out to be pretty good. I have some issues with him being left in charge during EatG (clearly a military situation) but thats nothing to do with his leadership abilities.

Me neither. And I also agree with you about Daniel. I can certainly understand why some would like to see him on Atlantis considering how much he was itching to go, and I even agree with it to an extent, but there would be overlap between Daniel and Elizabeth, much like the overlap gateraid pointed out between Teyla and Ronon. Though I'm sure a skilled writer could successfully tweak things so that both characters could fit.

I thought Daniel would have been a good fit on Atlantis, until I saw him there. But I had issues with his character in s9/10, and TLT/FC Daniel was just a zooped up version of that.

The only time Carter was in command was in season 8 when she was the commander of SG-1, and I might have forgotten something but I don’t recall any other time that she was in command over anything full time before Atlantis so I wouldn’t say that she would be the most qualified or at least over anyone else. But I haven’t been paying that much attention to Carter so it’s very possible that I missed something.

Aside from being in charge of other teams prior to that, she was also in charge of research at area 51 for a time, as well as supervising other projects. And its not an unreasonable assumption that she would have been in charge of a small team during her time as a pilot (prior to the SGC).

I’d go as far as to say that when it comes to leading an international expedition such as the one going to Atlantis then Elizabeth with her diplomatic background (but also her linguistic background) made her as qualified as anyone set to lead an expedition to another galaxy, mostly because we get to hear that she have an impressive resume when it comes to difficult negotiations, and while the SGC might benefit more from an American military leader since most of those who work there are connected to the US military but Atlantis was always different, and Elizabeth was asked to lead the SGC basically because they wanted her to be a more neutral public figure once the Stargate program became public and they didn’t think a US military general would cut it with the rest of the world which is understandable. Now I don’t think that there’s a person on earth who is truly qualified to lead either the SGC or Atlantis but it’s all about what kind of past skills you have and how you may use them but also how quick you learn and are able to adapt.

What has being a good negotiator got to do with allocation of scarce resources? What has it got to do with managing large groups of people? What has it got to do with long term planning? What has it got to do with making life and death decision in a crisis? Being good at negotiations is only one part of the leader's job. No doubt she'd worked as a consultant on many projects, but actually being the one making the decisions is another step.

Nowhere did I say Elizabeth wasn't good at her job. She was good at it in spite of being underqualified for it.

Carter might have had more experience in command, but where was she when her command was needed? I believe Woolsey has made more command decisions than Carter.

Well, before he was placed in charge of Atlantis, he hadn't made any (as far as we were shown). He was a lawyer, then he worked for the NID and later the IOA. The only leadership decision we'd seen him make was in s4 when he tried to order John to fire on Todd's hive(s).

Besides I don’t think a military leader/commander is the best leader to lead an expedition of scientists, civilians from different countries. And that’s where Elizabeth fits perfectly. She had a vast knowledge of many different cultures since she worked as a diplomat, negotiating treaties in more than one country, plus her linguistic skills, making her the best person to be able to handle such a group, not to mention the possibility of having to negotiate with other cultures in the Pegasus galaxy as well, although I think the main purpose of the expedition was to study and learn from Atlantis, I think it was never their real intention to go on exploratory adventures around the galaxy.

^ that. The bolded bit is the only reason Elizabeth was in charge. As soon as Earth got wind of what the situation was in Pegasus, General O'Neill relieved her of command in favour of Everett (a seasoned combat officer). Now, she proved to Everett and O'Neill that she was worthy of being in charge, but it was from experience gained on the job, not prior to it.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

I don't know if any of you remember the videos created by GW user earthling under youtube name metatr2n? The first videos were 30 second recaps of the episodes and I know several of you had posted on that thread at the time.

Anyway, there have been a whole series of videos that have been posted that seem to be creating an alternate version of events. Many of the videos have a Sparky slant. This one is very blatant though, and very well done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-ydIK5kwNQ

JT-2 , thank you for the video rec. I am speechless!

I have some issues with him being left in charge during EatG (clearly a military situation) but thats nothing to do with his leadership abilities.

I think Woolsey did well when in charge during EatG, i mean, i agree it was clearly a military situation and John should have been the one there leading the mission, but all in all i think Woolsey was able to handle it quite well.

I still feel it was really stupid to have John sent to Earth with the excuse of having him there to operate the Earth chair when they knew already in advance that the chair was no longer in Antarctica! I mean i am guessing the chair would not have been operational from Area 51, right? And if that’s the case, and since they mentioned the chair had been moved to Area 51 some time before, what was then the point of requesting John’s presence on Earth with that excuse. And wasn’t General O’Neill notified of the moving of the Chair, since he was the one who requested John’s presence?

Now, she proved to Everett and O'Neill that she was worthy of being in charge, but it was from experience gained on the job, not prior to it.

I agree with that, but i am guessing her previous experiences must have helped her through out all the situations she had to face while in Atlantis, i mean the first purpose of the expedition was to learn and study Atlantis, but once they got there things changed quite a lot, because of the situation they got themselves into, and i believe if it wouldn’t have been her skills at negotiation and skills at dealing with different cultures, she wouldn’t have been able to prove herself as she did.

[Southern Red]

The way they described Elizabeth's experience and education made me think she was involved with the State Department as a diplomat, at least before her SGC experience. Think about our Sec of State, Clinton and now Kerry. Aside from serving in the Senate, neither of them had any leadership experience. Sometimes leadership is thrust upon you, and they seemed to be implying that Elizabeth had a talent for leading. Once again, the writers didn't make it clear. I think we are meant to just accept this as we were so many things.

And, as someone else said, Woolsey had even less leadership experience than she did. In reality, neither of them would have had the job. They would have stuck some high level bureaucrat in there just because it was his/her turn to get promoted, or they would have given it to some screwup just to get rid of them. That, sadly, is the way a bureaucracy works. Mr. SR could tell you stories that would make you *headdesk* and repeat.

[ShipperWriter]

Slightly OT:

Spoiler:

I just got retweeted by Baal himself, Cliff Simon.

*insert GIF of Kermit flailing here*

[Sparky She-Demon]

Cool!

[Eri13]

The way they described Elizabeth's experience and education made me think she was involved with the State Department as a diplomat, at least before her SGC experience. Think about our Sec of State, Clinton and now Kerry. Aside from serving in the Senate, neither of them had any leadership experience. Sometimes leadership is thrust upon you, and they seemed to be implying that Elizabeth had a talent for leading. Once again, the writers didn't make it clear. I think we are meant to just accept this as we were so many things.

And, as someone else said, Woolsey had even less leadership experience than she did. In reality, neither of them would have had the job. They would have stuck some high level bureaucrat in there just because it was his/her turn to get promoted, or they would have given it to some screwup just to get rid of them. That, sadly, is the way a bureaucracy works. Mr. SR could tell you stories that would make you *headdesk* and repeat.

Elizabeth handled mediation of sensitive treaties with the UN, so definitely diplomat. The only thing we're not given clarity on is why the President chose her as a leader for the SGC--they leave that hanging. But I think once she'd done the SGC job (and proven her mettle with the System Lords), leading the Atlantis expedition did fall within her sphere of expertise. Initially the expedition in Antarctica was exploratory and her job there was to mediate between all the international powers who had a stake in what they'd found. And looking at what Atlantis was, it was wasn't like she was leading a country. She was more like an ambassador for Earth, until Atlantis started inserting themselves in as Papa Bear to all the poor backwards PG natives.

SR mentioned that Everett had the right to take command once the Wraith were introduced. Truthfully, it probably should have become a military fortress with John as head at that point, but they totally pussyfooted/gray-areaed that bit, because John had already been introduced as a 'rogue' solider who'd been brought on at Weir's insistence who wasn't 'comfortable' leading, so he let Weir keep it.

Once they were cut off from Earth, Elizabeth was forced into leadership expertise that no one could rival by the time Earth was reachable again. No one could do what she could, no matter what the military tried to argue.

Woolsey is a little more problematic, because at that point they really did need a second Elizabeth. What probably should have happened was they should have had Elizabeth have assistants whose job it was to work with other cultures alongside Shep and the SG teams, and then one of them took over once she was gone. I mean, what leader doesn't have an executive team helping with their job? Thinking about it, it was kind of stupid that Elizabeth didn't have a set of team members whose job was the politicking. They're negotiating for food, security, assistance, alpha sites--dealing with cultures like the Athosians and the people of "The Game" supposedly all the time. Was Elizabeth the only official 'diplomat' doing that? Atlantis was the Earth's footprint in the Pegasus galaxy. When we send a representative to represent us in another country, do we just send the ambassador? No--we have an Embassy.

Though I love him, my 'hard to believe' is still John. A rogue pilot, bad at taking orders, gets shimmied on the team with no one superior in rank to him than the commanding officer of the squad, leaving him as the 2IC under Sumner? Nnnnhhh....

[ShipperWriter]

Though I love him, my 'hard to believe' is still John. A rogue pilot, bad at taking orders, gets shimmied on the team with no one superior in rank to him than the commanding officer of the squad, leaving him as the 2IC under Sumner? Nnnnhhh....

Yeah, I always thought it was a little strange that there wouldn't be any other higher ranked officers on the expedition, especially considering that the only reason that John was there was due to his innate ability with the ATA gene, which he had never known previously that he had. Sumner should've had a 2IC of his own. Unless there was one and he just didn't rematerialize on the other side of the gate.

[Southern Red]

Yeah, I always thought it was a little strange that there wouldn't be any other higher ranked officers on the expedition, especially considering that the only reason that John was there was due to his innate ability with the ATA gene, which he had never known previously that he had. Sumner should've had a 2IC of his own. Unless there was one and he just didn't rematerialize on the other side of the gate.

Yeah, I wondered that too, and Eri is right. They never would have left John in that command position, but we have to take all that with a huge grain of salt. I think it would have been fun to see the Sparky interaction if they had put John in charge over her during the Siege. Talk about sparks. Oh yeah.

[ShipperWriter]

Yeah, I wondered that too, and Eri is right. They never would have left John in that command position, but we have to take all that with a huge grain of salt. I think it would have been fun to see the Sparky interaction if they had put John in charge over her during the Siege. Talk about sparks. Oh yeah.

That would've been interesting, especially considering how Lizzeh pwned him during HZ for the whole "we need to work together and present a united front" issue.

Sparks are awesome.

[Southern Red]

That would've been interesting, especially considering how Lizzeh pwned him during HZ for the whole "we need to work together and present a united front" issue.

Sparks are awesome.

You inspired me.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Nice!

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Slightly OT:

Spoiler:

I just got retweeted by Baal himself, Cliff Simon.

*insert GIF of Kermit flailing here*

as in "Bocce"?

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

i'm sorry but if all you had were buy the book military officers like Everett, Caldwell, and Sumner than in situations like suspicion where they thought teyla was a wraith spy and bates ordered them to keep the shield on, teyla would've died. you do need officers like O'Neill and Sheppard and Mitchell that would be considered "loose cannons" to show those officers that your way isn't always the right way.

[Nolamom]