Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

My whump challenge entry is of course shippy. It had to do with vacations. Since I'm going to San Diego next month, I created a postcard from Sparky on their honeymoon.


http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/.../San-Diego.jpg

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...s/postcard.jpg

That was the cutest. Great place for a honeymoon too.

[Irish Eyes]

I think I scared Irish Eyes away with my con talk.

Nope, it's just been a hectic week. Sorry! The one thing I almost always check every day is Twitter so if you need me, give me a poke there.

Looks like the post-a-thon was fun!

[Scary Kitty]

My whump challenge entry is of course shippy. It had to do with vacations. Since I'm going to San Diego next month, I created a postcard from Sparky on their honeymoon.


http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/.../San-Diego.jpg

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...s/postcard.jpg

OMFG.

AHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!

I don't know what was funnier, the bit about the lions giving John ideas (hey, like it's really any surprise that he's an animal!) or the "she's no fun well that's not true heh heh" part.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

have you guys seen this video? i found it during a john/elizabeth video search on youtube and i gotta tell you the way the vidder did this video i wouldn't mind seeing a darker version of john and elizabeth.

[Southern Red]

Good morning Sparkies. Some of us had a lot of fun doing the post-a-thon yesterday. Hopefully more can join in next time. Even Mr. SR was there to add some interesting observations. Queen Lady GaGa! ROTFLMAO!

I don't think we ever decided what to do about questions, so instead of each person having to answer a list all at once, how about we do one at a time? We can divide Rising into sections, for example:

1.Opening to arrival in the city
2.Exploration of Atlantis to first off world mission
3.The first mission to Athos; Teyla and the Athosians
4.The Rising to return from the rescue

I'm not sure that's a good division, but it seems to cover every base. Did I leave anything out. We can linger as long as we want to or return to earlier questions if we care to. Let's discuss #1 until we think we've covered everything. Anyone who has a question, submit it here. Here's my question.

Why the toast between John and Elizabeth? In looking at the progression of their relationship from meeting to going through the wormhole, I see a lot of subtext and missing scenes. There's a big skip from when he sits in the chair to when she is talking to Jack about bringing John along. During that time she has read his file. She didn't even know who he was a minute ago. Then we see him telling Jack that she had tried to convince him to come along and finally when they are getting ready to go he seems to have fully accepted her as his boss but is still snarky with Sumner. So what I'm asking is, why did they structure it thusly. Rodney was on that balcony too, but he barely glanced at her. Yet Elizabeth and John made eye contact, held it and nodded in some sort of unspoken communication. Take off the shippy glasses, try to think like a writer and explain why they chose to do that scene that way.

I'm hoping all that makes sense. It's a bit of an over explanation.

[Falcon Horus]

Deliberate repost!

This has Teyla, but John is just adorkable.

FACT: Joe Flanigan literally fell down that slope and kept in character. It stayed in for our viewing pleasures. Thank Joe for being a cluts there, and Rachel for holding it together.

[Southern Red]

Deliberate repost!



FACT: Joe Flanigan literally fell down that slope and kept in character. It stayed in for our viewing pleasures. Thank Joe for being a cluts there, and Rachel for holding it together.

LOL I can't imagine falling like that and staying on my feet. He's a lot more graceful than I am. She does seem to almost smile there. If they had done a bit more of that, the ship might have been believable...nah.

Just back from buying a new microwave. The old one is almost 30 years old. I'm not expecting that to happen with the replacement. Now I will probably burn everything for the first week or two. I think I'm going to name it Chef Pierre.

[JT-2]

That was the cutest. Great place for a honeymoon too.

Thanks!

OMFG.

AHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!

I don't know what was funnier, the bit about the lions giving John ideas (hey, like it's really any surprise that he's an animal!) or the "she's no fun well that's not true heh heh" part.

Thanks! I like the idea of John wanting to embarrass Rodney with talk like that. I can just picture Rodney being all "OMG I don't want to know this! La-la-la-la-la I can't hear you!"

Good morning Sparkies. Some of us had a lot of fun doing the post-a-thon yesterday. Hopefully more can join in next time. Even Mr. SR was there to add some interesting observations. Queen Lady GaGa! ROTFLMAO!

I will never be able to think of the queen Wraith or Lady Gaga the same way ever again! LOL!!!! I hope Mr. SR can be there in future 'thons.

I don't think we ever decided what to do about questions, so instead of each person having to answer a list all at once, how about we do one at a time? We can divide Rising into sections, for example:

1.Opening to arrival in the city
2.Exploration of Atlantis to first off world mission
3.The first mission to Athos; Teyla and the Athosians
4.The Rising to return from the rescue

I'm not sure that's a good division, but it seems to cover every base. Did I leave anything out. We can linger as long as we want to or return to earlier questions if we care to. Let's discuss #1 until we think we've covered everything. Anyone who has a question, submit it here. Here's my question.

I approve of this plan! That seems a good division to me.

Why the toast between John and Elizabeth? In looking at the progression of their relationship from meeting to going through the wormhole, I see a lot of subtext and missing scenes. There's a big skip from when he sits in the chair to when she is talking to Jack about bringing John along. During that time she has read his file. She didn't even know who he was a minute ago. Then we see him telling Jack that she had tried to convince him to come along and finally when they are getting ready to go he seems to have fully accepted her as his boss but is still snarky with Sumner. So what I'm asking is, why did they structure it thusly. Rodney was on that balcony too, but he barely glanced at her. Yet Elizabeth and John made eye contact, held it and nodded in some sort of unspoken communication. Take off the shippy glasses, try to think like a writer and explain why they chose to do that scene that way.

I'm hoping all that makes sense. It's a bit of an over explanation.

Ok, let me take my shippy glasses off. Well, I imagine the writers had the two of them acknowledge each other instead of Rodney because John's the lead of the show.

Now having said that, they didn't need to have Elizabeth acknowledge anyone at all. That scene was unnecessary as far as the plot goes. So I wonder if it was there to show that John and Elizabeth already had some respect between them - a respect that didn't exist between Elizabeth and Sumner nor John and Sumner. Or it could also be a way to show that progression of hidden scenes like you mentioned. John didn't want to go, but there were lots of times in between where they talked. Now they acknowledge each other with nods because John is convinced he made the right decision to come to Atlantis.

[Anuna]

Good morning Sparkies. Some of us had a lot of fun doing the post-a-thon yesterday. Hopefully more can join in next time. Even Mr. SR was there to add some interesting observations. Queen Lady GaGa! ROTFLMAO!

I don't think we ever decided what to do about questions, so instead of each person having to answer a list all at once, how about we do one at a time? We can divide Rising into sections, for example:

1.Opening to arrival in the city
2.Exploration of Atlantis to first off world mission
3.The first mission to Athos; Teyla and the Athosians
4.The Rising to return from the rescue

I'm not sure that's a good division, but it seems to cover every base. Did I leave anything out. We can linger as long as we want to or return to earlier questions if we care to. Let's discuss #1 until we think we've covered everything. Anyone who has a question, submit it here. Here's my question.

Why the toast between John and Elizabeth? In looking at the progression of their relationship from meeting to going through the wormhole, I see a lot of subtext and missing scenes. There's a big skip from when he sits in the chair to when she is talking to Jack about bringing John along. During that time she has read his file. She didn't even know who he was a minute ago. Then we see him telling Jack that she had tried to convince him to come along and finally when they are getting ready to go he seems to have fully accepted her as his boss but is still snarky with Sumner. So what I'm asking is, why did they structure it thusly. Rodney was on that balcony too, but he barely glanced at her. Yet Elizabeth and John made eye contact, held it and nodded in some sort of unspoken communication. Take off the shippy glasses, try to think like a writer and explain why they chose to do that scene that way.

I'm hoping all that makes sense. It's a bit of an over explanation.

Okay, I'll be really honest here. during my first watching of The Rising, after Elizabeth saw John getting himself acquainted with The Chair, she went to O'Neill and insisted that he talked John into joining the mission. Yes, she read the file in between, in those scenes that were never shown to us (ARGH), and she talked to John and he bluntly said no. so she came across like a grabby - handed someone who just HAD to have this guy because he had the right genetics. nevermind his flaws, because she can work with those. She can work with anything, but this guy, he can make other stuff work.

That was my first impression of her - she was determined to have him, period. if you think, Elizabeth can be like this. She can be idealistic and stubborn about things she believes in, and I think she was confident in her abilities to keep John in line. I think the next important moment, or moments, were when John acknowledged her - the small nod when she held up the champagne bottle, the handwave before he went through the wormhole. he is a decent guy who knows a chance when he sees one, and sure enough, Elizabeth is fair and honest, and a kind of person to actually give him that chance, and not just put reins on him and hold tight (that approach never worked on him, anyway.) i think they met somewhere in the middle, that Elizabeth did lots of work to nudge John towards that middle, because he was vary at times, and quite stubborn too, insisting that he knew better than her. but, you can't really outsmart a diplomat, and for some reason I just remembered that quote from My big fat Greek wedding about man being the head of the house, but woman being the neck. The toast scene at the end served, in strictly canon purposes, to show us that these two people are, indeed, the bosses. What TPTW didn't realize was that they were hinting at the direction John and Elizabeth should take - leading the city side by side as equals. Sometimes I'm convinced that Joe and Torri are to be thanked for consistency of the characters and their relationship, and that we can say "they were heading towards mutual respect and trust" thanks to two of them, and not the writers.

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Canon Monday! (and how very appropriate that we start our new discussions on the series today )

Deliberate repost!



FACT: Joe Flanigan literally fell down that slope and kept in character. It stayed in for our viewing pleasures. Thank Joe for being a cluts there, and Rachel for holding it together.

AHAHAHAHAHA! That's our Joe, taking one for the team.

LOL I can't imagine falling like that and staying on my feet. He's a lot more graceful than I am. She does seem to almost smile there. If they had done a bit more of that, the ship might have been believable...nah.

Just back from buying a new microwave. The old one is almost 30 years old. I'm not expecting that to happen with the replacement. Now I will probably burn everything for the first week or two. I think I'm going to name it Chef Pierre.

Or you could go Muppet-style and name it the Swedish Chef.

Good morning Sparkies. Some of us had a lot of fun doing the post-a-thon yesterday. Hopefully more can join in next time. Even Mr. SR was there to add some interesting observations. Queen Lady GaGa! ROTFLMAO!

The GaGa joke works even better because of the fact that virtually every Queen was played by the same actress. Just like GaGa changing her outfit. Epic win!

don't think we ever decided what to do about questions, so instead of each person having to answer a list all at once, how about we do one at a time? We can divide Rising into sections, for example:

1.Opening to arrival in the city
2.Exploration of Atlantis to first off world mission
3.The first mission to Athos; Teyla and the Athosians
4.The Rising to return from the rescue

I'm not sure that's a good division, but it seems to cover every base. Did I leave anything out. We can linger as long as we want to or return to earlier questions if we care to. Let's discuss #1 until we think we've covered everything. Anyone who has a question, submit it here. Here's my question.

Why the toast between John and Elizabeth? In looking at the progression of their relationship from meeting to going through the wormhole, I see a lot of subtext and missing scenes. There's a big skip from when he sits in the chair to when she is talking to Jack about bringing John along. During that time she has read his file. She didn't even know who he was a minute ago. Then we see him telling Jack that she had tried to convince him to come along and finally when they are getting ready to go he seems to have fully accepted her as his boss but is still snarky with Sumner. So what I'm asking is, why did they structure it thusly. Rodney was on that balcony too, but he barely glanced at her. Yet Elizabeth and John made eye contact, held it and nodded in some sort of unspoken communication. Take off the shippy glasses, try to think like a writer and explain why they chose to do that scene that way.

I'm hoping all that makes sense. It's a bit of an over explanation.

I think that's a good way to map out the discussion. Rising, by its very nature as a pilot episode, is going to be a bit different than the rest of the series.

Anyway, as to your question, I think it's pretty clear that some time has passed and that we're supposed to sort of fill in the blanks. When I first watched Rising, I got the feeling that at least a few hours, if not a day, may have passed between John sitting in the chair to Elizabeth and Jack having their conversation about John's reluctance to join the team. It also probably took some time for everyone to get back to the U.S. from Antarctica, get all the supplies rounded up, maybe even have a "rehearsal dial-up" or two to Earth's Alpha Site to practice getting everything and everyone through the wormhole as fast as possible. I can't imagine that it would have been less than two weeks for that. Those gaps leave a lot of time for a lot of missing scenes.

So, why would they shortcut character development like that? For starters, there's the bane of all film and TV writers: time. Once you cut out the commercials, you've only got about 90 minutes of air time to introduce the characters, present the story and resolve it (at least, as much as you can when you're dealing with ongoing plotlines). As much as we the viewers would like more details, there just isn't enough time for all the details we'd like; each episode would end up being 3 hours before even getting to commercials. Gee, maybe they should've made SGA a miniseries.

Then there's the balcony scene at the end. It is rather strange that they're so chummy there, when the initial plan for the series supposedly was that Sheppard and Weir were going to be more at odds over differences on how to run things. Sure, we saw them butting heads earlier over the issue of rescuing Sumner and the others, but they seem to have very easily put that behind them by the end. I think that a lot of it had to do with Sheppard recognizing that Weir wasn't going to be a hardass like Sumner and his other previous commanders; she was willing to give him a chance, but by the same token, he had to give her something to work with too, as was the case with the rescue mission. Meanwhile, Weir knows she's got a potential loose cannon on her hands, but if she can find a way to turn Sheppard's abilities toward a constructive use (and she does), she knows she's got someone who can save their asses (and he does. Repeatedly.).

It comes down to handing over a lot of trust between them to show the audience that while they come from different backgrounds, they're stuck together in this strange place with no backup from home, and if they're going to survive, they've got to start working together. I can't help but compare this with the way that the civilian vs. military conflict was played up too much on Stargate Universe. They were even more stuck and screwed in some ways than Team Atlantis was, and yet they sniped and fought with each other far longer, and it just didn't ring true because of that.

[Falcon Horus]

LOL I can't imagine falling like that and staying on my feet. He's a lot more graceful than I am. She does seem to almost smile there. If they had done a bit more of that, the ship might have been believable...nah.

It's an artform mastered by a few... I'm still practicing, however, my sister tells me I had the funniest squee that time I slipped on the icy walkway in Ireland and unceremoniously fell into the roadside ditch. The funniest squee was followed with a pathetic ouch and lots of giggling.

[Southern Red]

Thanks to all who answered today's questions. Some very good points were brought up. I think, as was stated in the S1 Companion Book, that their plans to have Sheppard and Weir be adversaries was thwarted by the chemistry between Joe and Torri. Every attempt to have them at each other's throats just fell flat and/or looked shippy.

They bonded right from the start and he knew that she got him. She knew also that she could depend on him in a tight spot and put her faith in him. If Sumner had stayed around, I'm sure there would have been moments of conflict over Shep being too close to her. After all, Sumner was his commanding officer and should have his complete loyalty, but as soon as they arrived in the city, Shep attached himself to her and became her right hand. That would have caused much conflict later. Too bad we never got to see that, but that would have changed things completely.

Anybody else have questions for part one? Let's have 'em.

[JT-2]

Thanks to all who answered today's questions. Some very good points were brought up. I think, as was stated in the S1 Companion Book, that their plans to have Sheppard and Weir be adversaries was thwarted by the chemistry between Joe and Torri. Every attempt to have them at each other's throats just fell flat and/or looked shippy.

They bonded right from the start and he knew that she got him. She knew also that she could depend on him in a tight spot and put her faith in him. If Sumner had stayed around, I'm sure there would have been moments of conflict over Shep being too close to her. After all, Sumner was his commanding officer and should have his complete loyalty, but as soon as they arrived in the city, Shep attached himself to her and became her right hand. That would have caused much conflict later. Too bad we never got to see that, but that would have changed things completely.

Anybody else have questions for part one? Let's have 'em.

Oooh that could have been insane fun! Plot bunny!!

Question - what was John thinking when he smirked as Elizabeth was walking by in the SGC gateroom?

[Southern Red]

Question - what was John thinking when he smirked as Elizabeth was walking by in the SGC gateroom?

Oooh, good question. I'm sure we've all thought about that one. Sumner had walked by and given him an I've-got-my-eye-on-you look which caused John to smirk. I'm sure he was thinking "Here we go again" because no one ever seemed to trust him. Yet there goes Elizabeth, who already seemed to trust him a bit and certainly wanted him along, so maybe he had found someone at long last that wouldn't judge him before she got to know him. All that is why I think he had the nerve to get snarky with Sumner and remind him that Weir was in charge, not him.

Now, in the real world, Sumner would have gotten in his face and reminded him that as long as he was in the US Military, his ass belonged to him. But the writers were, at this point, setting up the military vs Weir scenario and wanted to show that John was willing to work with her, and also to reinforce him as a problem child.

[ShipperWriter]

*scrolls through pages of post-a-thon entries and finally lands on current page*

Whew! That made for very good reading material. I had fun!

So anyhow, apologies for not being around lately. RL's been kicking me in the shins.

(((gateraid))) -- I love your captions! I'm trying to read them quietly in class without disrupting students. I don't think I succeeded.

So I have a "Rising" related question: we all know the scene where John is sitting on a hillside flipping a coin? Do you think that he had already made his decision and he was just wasting time? And the offscreen convo with Elizabeth (cause c'mon, Jack wasn't the only one who convinced him) ... if a beautiful woman told you that she wanted your body needed you to join the Expedition, would you need any more convincing?

Just ... throwing it out there since I missed the marathon.

Also, I got kitty whumped. I'll post pictures of my arm later. I came into work yesterday with my arm wrapped in an ACE bandage, so the kids kept asking me how it happened. I told them I got in a bar fight -- which if you know me, is the furthest thing from the truth. They knew I was kidding. I hope.

Also, I am happy to announce that after being on a new and special diet for the past two weeks, I have lost 8 lbs.

Be back later!!!