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**JT-2** · 20 April 2011, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Really? Hmm? I thought JM said they didn't find out until well into the planning for S4 and after Doppelganger which was an RCC project that was filmed first. Maybe they were afraid to tell Cooper. LOL Then if we go by that assumption, some of the stuff in Doppelganger wasn't intended to be shippy. Huh.

Yes the anvils were flying fast and furious in Doppelganger. As for why they didn't make it clear that Teyla was talking about John in Sunday (besides the fact that it was really Carson

)? Well, TPTW were always bigger on the "tell" than the "show" especially in regards to relationships. All I know is that they SHOWED John and Elizabeth hanging out together, being all cute.

Or perhaps it was Marty G's failure as a writer. He had to explain to everyone that those were Sheyla anvils in Sunday, like he had to explain that the Sparky hug was "just a hug".

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

I'd say it wasn't illegal early on because they didn't know about genetics. Later, I think it only applies to first cousins. And remember that in ancient times it was customary for siblings to marry. Ancient Egypt for example. In those days when a child was born different they sometimes thought it was cursed in some way and killed it. It's only in modern times that we have discovered why certain traits are passed down from our parents.

Whoa! I'm not even genetically related to my brothers but that gives me the creeps! Eeeeewww!!

Originally posted by gateraid View Post

They must've loved McKeller then. After all those years of telling fans they shouldn't read too much into things, suddenly we were meant to extrapolate volumes from their limited build up to "I love you" in The Shrine (not that they didn't do a passable attempt at proving they were a couple, but it was after the love confession rather than prior to it).

Again, it was their "tell" versus "show". Or in this case, perhaps, it was TPTW not communicating. If BW knew he was going to do that in The Shrine, then shouldn't he have told them beforehand so they could have included more hints prior to that ep?

Originally posted by gateraid View Post

The trouble was they talked Carter up prior to the season airing, but most of the stuff they talked about didn't really eventuate eg talking tough to Sheppard.

Yeah I read comments on here by people saying how John wouldn't walk all over Carter like he did with Elizabeth. And while I don't remember all of S4, I don't really recall Carter reining him in any.

**Scary Kitty** · 20 April 2011, 07:39 AM

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

Originally posted by gateraid View Post

I look at it as them thinking that they got rid of Torri/Weir to improve ratings (as well as bringing Amanda/Carter over), so increasing her screentime after the fact would've been crazy to them. A pity really, they could've had the best of both worlds - bringing the SG-1 fans in, as well as having the Weir fans tune in for her eps.

Indeed. That's certainly a big part of what upsets me about the whole fiasco -- all the wasted opportunities.

Originally posted by gateraid View Post

If done right is key, which was another factor in my concern over the idea. TPTW were great at episodical character moments, not so much with the arcs.

At least we won't have that problem with Atlantis Rising.

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

Yes the anvils were flying fast and furious in Doppelganger. As for why they didn't make it clear that Teyla was talking about John in Sunday (besides the fact that it was really Carson

)? Well, TPTW were always bigger on the "tell" than the "show" especially in regards to relationships. All I know is that they SHOWED John and Elizabeth hanging out together, being all cute.

Or perhaps it was Marty G's failure as a writer. He had to explain to everyone that those were Sheyla anvils in Sunday, like he had to explain that the Sparky hug was "just a hug".

Yup, it was totally Carson she was talking about. I still think it's too bad that Carson died so long before the Athosians went missing... he could've been Teyla's baby daddy!

And yeah, they totally showed John and Elizabeth hanging out together and being all cute. If it's on screen, it's canon, baby.

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

Yeah I read comments on here by people saying how John wouldn't walk all over Carter like he did with Elizabeth. And while I don't remember all of S4, I don't really recall Carter reining him in any.

And aside from "Hot Zone" and the totally contrived OOCness of "First Strike," when did John ever walk all over Elizabeth?

**JT-2** · 20 April 2011, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

Yup, it was totally Carson she was talking about. I still think it's too bad that Carson died so long before the Athosians went missing... he could've been Teyla's baby daddy!

Whoa, imagine the angst if they'd gone through with that! And then clone!Carson comes along and has no memory of ever sleeping with Teyla... oooh...

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

And aside from "Hot Zone" and the totally contrived OOCness of "First Strike," when did John ever walk all over Elizabeth?

I don't recall that ever happening myself. I think some people didn't understand Elizabeth's civilian style of leadership.

And then there were those people who just didn't like Elizabeth. Some said she emasculated John, but at the same time he walked all over her. Um, how can both those things happen?

Spoiler:

There seemed to be many comments about the casual viewers not caring whether Elizabeth was written out or not. Well, I caught an episode of Angel this morning on TNT. I was a casual viewer of that show, who bailed when Cordy left. So casual viewers certainly DO care.

At least in Cordy's sake, they had her back for one last episode where she acted in character, wrapped up her storyline, and they let her and Angel kiss. Basically, it's what GitM could have been.

**Scary Kitty** · 20 April 2011, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

Whoa, imagine the angst if they'd gone through with that! And then clone!Carson comes along and has no memory of ever sleeping with Teyla... oooh...

I know! It certainly seemed to be implied by their scenes in episodes like "Critical Mass" that Carson and Teyla were pretty close. The angst would've been a delicious feast, that's for sure.

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

I don't recall that ever happening myself. I think some people didn't understand Elizabeth's civilian style of leadership.

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

And then there were those people who just didn't like Elizabeth. Some said she emasculated John, but at the same time he walked all over her. Um, how can both those things happen?

Spoiler:

Hypocritical Weir haters is only the tip of that iceberg.

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

There seemed to be many comments about the casual viewers not caring whether Elizabeth was written out or not. Well, I caught an episode of Angel this morning on TNT. I was a casual viewer of that show, who bailed when Cordy left. So casual viewers certainly DO care.

At least in Cordy's sake, they had her back for one last episode where she acted in character, wrapped up her storyline, and they let her and Angel kiss. Basically, it's what GitM could have been.

If the casual viewers didn't care about Elizabeth being written out, then common sense would dictate that the ratings for Seasons 4 and 5 would've held steady with the first three seasons, or even risen. Instead, the ratings went even further downhill. Sure looks like the casual viewers were not impressed with Atlantis sans Elizabeth. Ooops.

**Southern Red** · 20 April 2011, 09:46 AM

Hi ho. Back from a shopping marathon looking for an outfit to wear to my high school reunion. Success on all counts and it was all on sale. Plus I had a 30% coupon for one item and used a gift card for another. \0/ But I iz tired.

But not too tired to talk about Sparky. There was indeed a bit of hypocrisy surrounding Elizabeth, especially in relation to John. I noticed there was never much argument about her relationships with Rodney, Carson and Ronon. She was allowed to be friends with them without it invoking extreme hatred. Funny how that worked. And how many times did she yell at Rodney without being accused of emasculating him? And was he ever accused of running all over her? What does that even mean? Every time John agreed with her, he was emasculated? And when he went and did what he pleased, he was running all over her? Though, I can't think of a time either except HZ and FS when that happened. *ponders*

Oh yeah, Sanctuary. But that was hormones.

Trinity? He sided with Rodney and see where that got him, but still he got her permission.

Can't recall another time when they didn't discuss things and make a decision together. And he told Woolsey in Misbegotten that he supported her decisions and was certainly upset when those decisions were questioned. It's interesting how different viewers see things.

**Falcon Horus** · 20 April 2011, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by gateraid View Post

I found it to be a bit silly. IF they were going down that path, why on Earth didn't Teyla actually say it was Shep in Sunday? That would've made it a lot easier for them. Having Ronon say "I always thought you two would hook up" then later suddenly know all about Kanaan was a bit contradictory.

It was Teyla's dream... so it was dream!Ronon who said that, not actual Ronon. And considering how she looked as dream!Ronon says it, I'm not entirely sure she's happy about it.

Originally posted by gateraid View Post

Have you read Rachel's homepage? I'm not sure if it's a typo, but it implies that she told them before they started filming s4. This is at odds with everything else I've read on the subject.

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Really? Hmm? I thought JM said they didn't find out until well into the planning for S4 and after Doppelganger which was an RCC project that was filmed first. Maybe they were afraid to tell Cooper. LOL Then if we go by that assumption, some of the stuff in Doppelganger wasn't intended to be shippy. Huh.

I did a bit of digging and found this article - The Re-Birth of Teyla - to clear up the matter:

It's an interview that dates back to before Caden was born, and after season 4 was done filming.

So, knowing that you were - and are still - pregnant at the time of shooting this 4th season, how was the news of your 'condition' accepted by the producers ... and what did it do for your storyline?

"At the end of season three there was a lot of talk about how season four was going to be finally a really strong season for 'Teyla' and of course, for myself. So, they were busy hashing out a lot of storylines when I came to them [the Producers] about a month before we started the season with the news. They actually found out I was pregnant before many of my dear friends," she laughs. "And I just told them what was going on and they embraced it. And I'm so happy with how they incorporated into the storyline. I'm very happy with what that meant for 'Teyla' and her journey this season."

So, they knew about Rachel being pregnant before filming the season. I remember JM talking about how they had big plans for Teyla in the new season, and then they had to change it all. However, I am known to take anything he says with a mountain of salt so I didn't buy their big change for a second. It was Teyla after all, the character they had been forgetting about for the better part of the season [3].

And then there's this following part that makes me smile somewhat...

And just which character on 'Stargate: Atlantis' was it that got Teyla in this 'motherly way'?!

"Well, you haven't met him. I will say though that he's part of her childhood. He's a part of how she was raised and reflective of her principles and how she grew up."

Take that Legacy!

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Which understandably leads to some of the frustration of some fans. Extreme contradiction seemed to be their theme. There must have been a sign up in the writers' room saying "How Can We Confuse the Fans Today?"

They wrote the book.

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

We need clarification. Where's FH? She's our expert on all things Teyla.

I'm here but much to general believes I am in fact not always that all-knowing, you know.

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Good judgment was never their strong suit. They thought all the SG-1 fans would flock over to see AT. Didn't happen. Especially since they wrote her OOC. And they underestimated the number of Weir fans, but even to this day they would never admit their mistake.

Not to mention those that came and went with AT... couple of those too.

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

Yes the anvils were flying fast and furious in Doppelganger.

Something was definitely flying south in Doppelganger...

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

As for why they didn't make it clear that Teyla was talking about John in Sunday (besides the fact that it was really Carson

)? Well, TPTW were always bigger on the "tell" than the "show" especially in regards to relationships.

It was Kate... I'm sure it was.

I can't recall the episode - the one where Zelenka's crawling through the Atlantis air ducts - but there's a scene at the end where John is joking ... oh no wait, it's the one with Rod from the alternate universe - McKay & Mrs. Miller ... anyway... John is joking about how Teyla fancies one of the marines. She kicks him in response.

And as it so happens that episode occurs before Sunday - now obviously episodes are filmed out of order but this is quite significant to whom Teyla is referring in that later episode. It's not John (he isn't a marine to begin with) that's for sure.

**Scary Kitty** · 20 April 2011, 01:06 PM

Gotta love shopping the sales, eh?

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Hi ho. Back from a shopping marathon looking for an outfit to wear to my high school reunion. Success on all counts and it was all on sale. Plus I had a 30% coupon for one item and used a gift card for another. \0/ But I iz tired.

But not too tired to talk about Sparky. There was indeed a bit of hypocrisy surrounding Elizabeth, especially in relation to John. I noticed there was never much argument about her relationships with Rodney, Carson and Ronon. She was allowed to be friends with them without it invoking extreme hatred. Funny how that worked. And how many times did she yell at Rodney without being accused of emasculating him? And was he ever accused of running all over her? What does that even mean? Every time John agreed with her, he was emasculated? And when he went and did what he pleased, he was running all over her? Though, I can't think of a time either except HZ and FS when that happened. *ponders*

Oh yeah, Sanctuary. But that was hormones.

Trinity? He sided with Rodney and see where that got him, but still he got her permission.

And, of course, asking her to let him have Ronon join the team.

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Can't recall another time when they didn't discuss things and make a decision together. And he told Woolsey in Misbegotten that he supported her decisions and was certainly upset when those decisions were questioned. It's interesting how different viewers see things.

Oooh, and don't forget about how he stood up to Colonel Everett in The Siege, Part 2 about including Elizabeth in the discussions about how to defend the city from the Wraith. Or the way he taunted Kolya about Kolya not knowing Elizabeth as well as he thought in Common Ground.

**Scary Kitty** · 20 April 2011, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post

It was Teyla's dream... so it was dream!Ronon who said that, not actual Ronon. And considering how she looked as dream!Ronon says it, I'm not entirely sure she's happy about it.

She looked downright disturbed, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post

I did a bit of digging and found this article - The Re-Birth of Teyla - to clear up the matter:

It's an interview that dates back to before Caden was born, and after season 4 was done filming.

Oooh, thanks for posting that link. I'm gonna have to save that one.

Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post

It was Kate... I'm sure it was.

I can't recall the episode - the one where Zelenka's crawling through the Atlantis air ducts - but there's a scene at the end where John is joking ... oh no wait, it's the one with Rod from the alternate universe - McKay & Mrs. Miller ... anyway... John is joking about how Teyla fancies one of the marines. She kicks him in response.

And as it so happens that episode occurs before Sunday - now obviously episodes are filmed out of order but this is quite significant to whom Teyla is referring in that later episode. It's not John (he isn't a marine to begin with) that's for sure.

Take that, Martin Gero! LOL!

**SMB_BOOKS** · 20 April 2011, 03:09 PM

A conversation we wish we could have seen on SGA...

Spoiler:

Oh, and here's another one that would have been great onscreen...

Spoiler:

**JT-2** · 20 April 2011, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Southern Red View Post

Hi ho. Back from a shopping marathon looking for an outfit to wear to my high school reunion. Success on all counts and it was all on sale. Plus I had a 30% coupon for one item and used a gift card for another. \0/ But I iz tired.

But not too tired to talk about Sparky. There was indeed a bit of hypocrisy surrounding Elizabeth, especially in relation to John. I noticed there was never much argument about her relationships with Rodney, Carson and Ronon. She was allowed to be friends with them without it invoking extreme hatred. Funny how that worked. And how many times did she yell at Rodney without being accused of emasculating him? And was he ever accused of running all over her? What does that even mean? Every time John agreed with her, he was emasculated? And when he went and did what he pleased, he was running all over her? Though, I can't think of a time either except HZ and FS when that happened. *ponders*

Oh yeah, Sanctuary. But that was hormones.

Trinity? He sided with Rodney and see where that got him, but still he got her permission.

Can't recall another time when they didn't discuss things and make a decision together. And he told Woolsey in Misbegotten that he supported her decisions and was certainly upset when those decisions were questioned. It's interesting how different viewers see things.

Nice bargain shopping!!

There was alot of insecurity from others about a ship that was never written.

Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post

Something was definitely flying south in Doppelganger...

Most definitely.

I was thinking about the Sunday thing while I was doing errands, and I figured it out. Teyla mentions the man is probably oblivious. Now, what man on Atlantis is the most oblivious to flirting? Rodney! It was Rodney! And new "canon" certainly backs this up.

[/sarcasm]

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

She looked downright disturbed, that's for sure.

Yes, she did. If they wanted that to be shippy, they should have told Rachel not to react that way. Like they should have told Joe not to have "uh, what?" look when Ronon mentions the hooking up thing in Sunday.

And of course, my personal favorite is Teyla's reaction in GitM when being questioned by Franibeth about John being Torren's father. It's totally "oh no, no, honey, I wouldn't do that to you".

Well, that's what I saw anyway.

**TheLadyMore** · 20 April 2011, 03:22 PM

So I am watching Common Ground with my Roommte and her friend (halfly because I had to show them Kolya's infamous Harpoon, second I am doing a fic for the Atlantis big bang Where Rodney gets kidnapped instead of John, should be interesting, lots of Sparky comfort for a guilty John Sheppard) with our own commentary and every line Elizabeth says I add that's cause you wuv Sheppard

**JT-2** · 20 April 2011, 03:29 PM

Most agreed on both of those! 2 thumbs up!

Originally posted by SMB_BOOKS View Post

A conversation we wish we could have seen on SGA...

Spoiler:

Oh, and here's another one that would have been great onscreen...

Spoiler:

**Scary Kitty** · 20 April 2011, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by SMB_BOOKS View Post

A conversation we wish we could have seen on SGA...

Spoiler:

Hmm, that may be rather inspirational for certain things that will be happening later in Season 6...

Originally posted by SMB_BOOKS View Post

Oh, and here's another one that would have been great onscreen...

Spoiler:

Bwahahaha! And that one for Season 7!

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

I was thinking about the Sunday thing while I was doing errands, and I figured it out. Teyla mentions the man is probably oblivious. Now, what man on Atlantis is the most oblivious to flirting? Rodney! It was Rodney! And new "canon" certainly backs this up.

[/sarcasm]

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

Yes, she did. If they wanted that to be shippy, they should have told Rachel not to react that way. Like they should have told Joe not to have "uh, what?" look when Ronon mentions the hooking up thing in Sunday.

Or how Joe had that 'eww, I'm being hugged by a girl' look on his face when Teyla hugs Sheppard in "Spoils of War." Joe sure didn't do that when Elizabeth hugged Sheppard in "The Siege, Part 3!" Nope, he just looked surprised, and then melted into the hug, like Sheppard was craving the physical contact with Elizabeth. "A hug is just a hug," my ass.

Originally posted by JT-2 View Post

And of course, my personal favorite is Teyla's reaction in GitM when being questioned by Franibeth about John being Torren's father. It's totally "oh no, no, honey, I wouldn't do that to you".

Well, that's what I saw anyway.

No kidding! Teyla's reaction was totally, "OMG, I don't care how hot Sheppard might be, he's totally yours and I would never betray you because you're my BFF and I luv you, girl!"

Of course, I also think that the fact that FRANibeth even asked in the first place was the tipoff that convinced Teyla that FRANibeth was a copy instead of the original Elizabeth.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

**TheLadyMore** · 20 April 2011, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

Or how Joe had that 'eww, I'm being hugged by a girl' look on his face when Teyla hugs Sheppard in "Spoils of War." Joe sure didn't do that when Elizabeth hugged Sheppard in "The Siege, Part 3!" Nope, he just looked surprised, and then melted into the hug, like Sheppard was craving the physical contact with Elizabeth. "A hug is just a hug," my ass.

Again it goes with our added commentary with my roommate and her friend when we watched Common Ground I mentioned when Elizabeth came on the screen, there's John Sheppard's secret Lo-vere and my roommate goes it's not cannon....I look at her and scream BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!!!

**SMB_BOOKS** · 20 April 2011, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post

Hmm, that may be rather inspirational for certain things that will be happening later in Season 6...

Bwahahaha! And that one for Season 7!

YAYx2! So glad I could tie in to Atlantis Rising! WOOT

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