Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[cafine_us]

TPTB are probably going to sit in their offices tomorrow, reading our posts, laughing at how clever they are jerking all of us around. *shaking head*

Well it was a really confusing episode for the ships. There are really two ships being presented, each with its own characteristics. It's not entirely clear at this point which one is the choice of TPTB. There could be a love triangle I suppose, but I think that would conflict with the professionalism and even friendship, so I hope they stay away from that.

[Bama]

Bama, you really hit the nail on the head when you said Sheppard/Teyla had

Spoiler:

a kiss

, but Sheppard/Weir have a relationship. My mom is the one person I chat about this show with and she said shep/Weir talk to to each other. A physical attraction Shep/Teyla may have, but that can only go so far and then what's left?

Also Bama what you said about Shep/Weir

Spoiler:

having the meat of the episode in the middle of it. in the episode seige 3 someone posted after this episode aired on this thread that as nice as the hug was between SHep/Weir it was really the episode as a whole. There was something that continued through in s3 between shep/weir. It was really the episode as a whole that made their relationship interesting and shippy. But Conversion didn't have that with SHep/Teyla. Like you said Bama. The two just basically bookended the episode with no continual feeling of anything between them.

Spoiler:

You know, I don't really think John knows what he feels for who right now. I'm not certain he's willing to really recognize his feelings for Elizabeth because of their professional relationship. He thought from day one that Teyla was attractive and I'm sure still does. She is attractive. But again, there's no *connection* between the two and never has been. All I've ever sensed between them on the man/woman level was: 'You're cute.'...'Yeah, you're cute too.' Not too deep. TPTB seem to be playing around with relationships and dynamics this year but guys, if the internet is any indicator, there seems to be a huge number of shep/weir supporters as opposed to shep/tey or any other 'pairing'. People aren't blind or stupid and you have to think TPTB can see as well.

I'd be lying if I said the wraithy kiss didn't bother me a little just because I had to watch Elizabeth's man puttin his mouth on someone else (reminicent of that skank ep from season one) but I'm certainly not handwringing over it because like you guys said in some great posts, this ep was about one person's feelings and one person only really. Elizabeth.

Everything else in it was 'gotcha!' fodder. No doubt. I'm really shocked how much the ep was about her. I thought it was going to be a heavy john character study and it wasn't. It was an eliz. character study. That last scene where she went into his room showed such a trust from her and a gut knowledge that he wouldn't hurt her. And of course, in the end, he couldn't even as crazy as he was. He most certainly had no problems knocking out both the guards cold right outside his door to escape but he dropped Elizabeth without harm.

She practically YELLED to anyone who could see (and Caldwell could) that she loved John Sheppard. THAT to me was the watershed 'OMG' of this ep. Much more so than that wraithkiss thing that took like three seconds of importance time. Now it's john's turn. There's going to be the 'eye-opener' for him before the season is done. I've been proven right on Caldwell...and I think I'm right on this too. This john/eliz/caldwell thing is gonna be terrific and explosive and emotional for both our boy and girl. yum. yum.

-B...

[FoolishPleasure]

Gah! I have to wait far too long to see this ep and it sounds soooooooo amazing!

Oh and you just KNOW that Poohs snarky recap is guna ROCK!!

OMG. .Pooh and Red are going to have a blast writing up this episode! I can't wait for their "colorful" commentary!

[Rubicon]

The continutity about

Spoiler:

John choking Elizabeth is her lack of neck bruises. To me this isn't stupid nitpicking, I'd call it continuity. NECKS BRUISE, Alot, really easily.

Sorry for the stupid, but I was really looking for this in the latter scenes. And it bugged me.

[Whistler84]

I got the impression that when

Spoiler:

Caldwell confronted Weir about her "relationship" with Sheppard, that eventually that is where TPTB intend to go. Heck, if this was THE episode to promote Shep/Tey, then WHY did Caldwell have to make that remark? It was put in for a reason.

TPTB are probably going to sit in their offices tomorrow, reading our posts, laughing at how clever they are jerking all of us around. *shaking head*

Good point, FP. The hint is nice and subtle, like our ship.

[Bama]

Good point, FP. The hint is nice and subtle, like our ship.

Spoiler:

Gotta 'ditto' that one. Good point on the 'hinter' line there. To me, that was Big. Big. Big. An 'outsider' has made note of it. Rodney has made note of the 'it' between them. Carson has. Elizabeth was yet again near breakdown the entire episode and still, what a woman that she kept her integrity and knew that john would want her to in that final bedroom scene between them. Those two scenes were very telling for her feelings for john imo. Heck, what in the ep WASN'T telling for her love for her 2IC? That's what may be 'overlooked' in the handwringing over that 'gotcha' kiss thing. This IS the ep that told us all without a doubt that Elizabeth Weir is in love with John Sheppard. Absolutely. I've no doubt of it at all now. I had to give Torri a big shout out in the weir thread because she just flat out made that ep *hers*. Joe was incredible in his angry, agressive, not in character transforming bug state but she was equal if not better because she held the key to the ep in her every facial tick and wobbly command.

I've cruised the internet a good bit since I found GW and I'm shocked at just how overwhelming the number of shipper there seem to be for Shep/Weir. Anyone else who has found that to be the case? I just have to think that given the huge care in building this ship between john and eliz. and the incredibly obvious chemistry we all see, that TPTB have to be smart enough to see it too. I think they are indeed laughing and having their fun right now but we've had a ton of hints in this ep and many others as to where this thing will eventually end up. I still feel pretty doggone confident even after having to be subjected to that less than zero wraithbug kiss tonight.

-B

[marella]

Ha. I can let that breath out now. I don't feel nearly as bad as I feared after the you know what especially in how they handled the entire episode. I think it was Bama who mentioned a few days ago that it would be the aftermath that would tell the tale so to speak. Bama or if whoever said it if it was someone else was right on in that estimation. Ha, sigh, again.

[Royal_Nonesuch]

Hey all, I unfortunately missed this episode completely! It sounds very interesting form your posts. Would anyone here be willing to give me a spoiler-ific summary of the ep (especially Shep/Weir significant items). Also, when will they be re-running these eps? Thanks much.

Royal

[marella]

I meant to add, but somehow closed the window on myself that

Spoiler:

Teyla seemed to be relieved that things were back to normal there at the end, except for calling him John of course. She certainly appeared to be letting out a breath of that relief after they agreed to let everything just go on normally.

Completely off in left field for our ship purposes, but I would have liked to see them show Elizabeth beating Caldwell at Chess.

Royalnonesuch They usually rerun the episode in the third hour after the first showing, in Pacific time anyway. You have one ep of Battlestar Galactica, an ep of Stargate SG1 and then the reshow of Atlantis. Hopefully you can catch it.

[marella]

Spoiler:

You know, I don't really think John knows what he feels for who right now. I'm not certain he's willing to really recognize his feelings for Elizabeth because of their professional relationship. He thought from day one that Teyla was attractive and I'm sure still does. She is attractive. But again, there's no *connection* between the two and never has been. All I've ever sensed between them on the man/woman level was: 'You're cute.'...'Yeah, you're cute too.' Not too deep. TPTB seem to be playing around with relationships and dynamics this year but guys, if the internet is any indicator, there seems to be a huge number of shep/weir supporters as opposed to shep/tey or any other 'pairing'. People aren't blind or stupid and you have to think TPTB can see as well.

I'd be lying if I said the wraithy kiss didn't bother me a little just because I had to watch Elizabeth's man puttin his mouth on someone else (reminicent of that skank ep from season one) but I'm certainly not handwringing over it because like you guys said in some great posts, this ep was about one person's feelings and one person only really. Elizabeth.

Everything else in it was 'gotcha!' fodder. No doubt. I'm really shocked how much the ep was about her. I thought it was going to be a heavy john character study and it wasn't. It was an eliz. character study. That last scene where she went into his room showed such a trust from her and a gut knowledge that he wouldn't hurt her. And of course, in the end, he couldn't even as crazy as he was. He most certainly had no problems knocking out both the guards cold right outside his door to escape but he dropped Elizabeth without harm.

She practically YELLED to anyone who could see (and Caldwell could) that she loved John Sheppard. THAT to me was the watershed 'OMG' of this ep. Much more so than that wraithkiss thing that took like three seconds of importance time. Now it's john's turn. There's going to be the 'eye-opener' for him before the season is done. I've been proven right on Caldwell...and I think I'm right on this too. This john/eliz/caldwell thing is gonna be terrific and explosive and emotional for both our boy and girl. yum. yum.

-B...

Your post gave me a thought about the dynamics of the characters. Teyla back in the episode with Chaya told John that there was nothing wrong with forming a relationship with someone and that it was a good thing referring to Chaya. She didn't seem jealous and more like a friend trying to set another friend up. For the life of me, I cannot imagine Elizabeth feeling or telling John anything of the sort. You'd have to drop her on her head before she would be casual and okay with setting John up or encouraging him to reach out and touch someone. Part of that is her personality of course, but part of it, I'm sure, would also be her personal feelings. She is not going to be casual with John smooching on some other woman or at least I can't see it.

[SoulSpinder]

I got to watch part of it again, and for part of that part there was a REALLY noisy group there, so I got to pay more attention to the motions and faces as well as dialouge. (which I love doing. And, let me take this moment to say once more. Torri's face/eye work is so frellin' phenominal!) So, here's a couple things that I"m probably dippin' in too deep for, but, here goes.

Spoiler:

When Weir was talking with Shep this time 'round, she more generally had her hands placed midway between her stomach and chest, on the lower side. I don't know about everyone, but I always seem to do that when I'm troubled and am building confidence in myself and trying to keep my calm. She was being the stronger of the two for him.

She was one of the few who didn't shy away from him. She faced this trandformation.

Her repetative use of his name, exspecially when looking for him that final time in the room, designates that she's still hanging onto the person inside him. Where as others *cough*Caldwell*cough* were still treating him as a insect, as dead. She also used 'when' instead of 'if' when talking of a cure, and 'if' instead of 'when' at the thought of John's dimise.

Liz went through the doors against all advisory, another example of her being determined.

Why is it that it WAS only Liz who was unoffical designated 'keep him somewhat human' person. When Sheppard was given the extreme dose of whateverit was that Carson was keeping him saine with (gimmie a break! It's 1:36!) I know that if Carson thought that anyone else could help John relax when he woke up, he would have let them stand there and wait. Yet, it was Liz who was there.

Now, given, Elizabeth IS the base commander which would give her more privlages and leway. But, I don't think that was all.

During the final visit to John's bedroom (well..final in this ep *cough* *cough*) when she had to brake to him the bad news, please not that he said (roughly)

"Then if you won't, kill me now. It'll be for the best. For both of us."
Both of Us Not 'all of us' or simply 'for the best' Us, implying the two of them.

On John's side, before he told her to double the gaurd- he deliberately hid his changed half from her. He could have simply been afraid of her reaction. He was afraid himself. But, he knew that the sight of him would make her realize. He just was avoidign it a lot.

My friend also pointed out to me that even though he was immediately aggresive to Teyla, he made himself regain composture until near the end with Elizabeth. Seeing as the ...would it be called an infection?....had BARELY spread when he lost it in the fight, can you imagine when it was really gaining speed, what it would be like to surpress that?

And I really should stop ranting. At least until my friend and I tlak som emore

[Bama]

Your post gave me a thought about the dynamics of the characters. Teyla back in the episode with Chaya told John that there was nothing wrong with forming a relationship with someone and that it was a good thing referring to Chaya. She didn't seem jealous and more like a friend trying to set another friend up. For the life of me, I cannot imagine Elizabeth feeling or telling John anything of the sort. You'd have to drop her on her head before she would be casual and okay with setting John up or encouraging him to reach out and touch someone. Part of that is her personality of course, but part of it, I'm sure, would also be her personal feelings. She is not going to be casual with John smooching on some other woman or at least I can't see it.

No, she's not. her feelings are definitely a growing problem for her as the leader of this thing. i'm sure we'll see more in that direction in season three.
caldwell may yet use it against her.

Spoiler:

he got her to admit to it tonite.

-b

[Bama]

Unlurking to say I loved it!

Spoiler:

Well the kiss was nothing. Whew! And the ending, the look on Teyla's face was telling. She was relieved. Relieved! Not titillated by John's cave-man kiss. (I try to work titillated into a sentence once a week.) I don't see the Sheyla in this. I saw Teyla caring for a friend, but she was no where near as overwhelmed with it as Elizabeth was.
Onto the important stuff...Weir, well what can you say about our gal! The scenes in John's quarters were hot and she kicks butt. Everyone was concerned about John, but Elizabeth was, well, beyond concerned really. She was close to loosing it a couple times I think. Now we need a John in super worry mode over her. (The Long Goodbye anyone?)
I am not very happy about Skinner hitting on Weir. And you know he was! But was he doing it because he is truly interested in her, or just to get control of Atlantis. I was (slightly) worried with the solitaire/chess scene, but thankfully she saw through that later on. And her tough chick line to him at the end about not wanting her as his enemy, well I see no ship. Nope, refuse to see it. Not there. But I do see her statement as a setup for something in the future. Caldwell is going to be a big issue later on. And the fact he even commented to Elizabeth on her relationship to John hints that may be where this storyline is going.
This episode screamed Sheppard/Weir.
My one complaint was the end was too abrupt. Where is the scene with John apologizing to Elizabeth? Smooching on Telya is not near as bad as choking your boss (::cough::lover::cough:. I can only figure that it was too private even for cable tv.

Now that I have rambled, let me say I am a glass half-full kind of gal, but are we getting too much ship? I know, no such thing with these two, but realistically, are we being set up for something bad? Maybe I just don't trust these tptb anymore, but I feel a little concerned. Not to say I think they are going Shelya. Could the tptb actually be trying to go for an honest relationship, not a yank-your-chain ship?

Now as I write this BSG has ended and can I say (off topic spoiler alert!):

Spoiler:

Xena is NOT a cylon. That is just a world of wrong!!

You know grasshopper,

Spoiler:

I rewatched it and the thing that struck me this time was just how much empahasis was put on ELIZABETH's feelings and reactions to John's transformation and potential death. Camera shots lingered on her troubled face at the end of oodles of scenes. HER emotion was constantly underscored in the ep. Her 'extra' feelings for her 2IC were highlighted. To me it was the proverbial 'bait and switch' trick. Why, if it were remotely intended to be a future prelude to more between john and tey would they frame the ep this way? It makes no sense. Why not frame it with a few more 'worried' looks or discussions from teyla? Why not show her growing emotions and overwhelming strife to find the solution that stops it. why not show her determination and willpower to fight for john? why not highlight her trust in the man? why not let her be the one to face him down and level with him?

I think we all know the answer. Although it would sick me out, I'd be for letting Shep/Tey kiss during every stick fight and diddle on the mat if they need to get their sexual yayas off, but for goodness sakes, let shep/weir continue to have the relationship that actually exists and means something deep and lasting to the heart.

-B ; )

[marella]

No, she's not. her feelings are definitely a growing problem for her as the leader of this thing. i'm sure we'll see more in that direction in season three.
caldwell may yet use it against her.

Spoiler:

he got her to admit to it tonite.

-b

Yes, I expect that he will use it against her if he possibly can. I hate thinking and watching that kind of political infighting in a way, but they did some of it even on SG1 so I expect we will see fallout at some point. He really wants John's job if not Elizabeth's and he and those reports back home are seeding the ground. I really liked your fic by the way. I expect that is what the snake in the grass really is doing.

On another note, I suspect we might see something come of the marks on John's arm some time in the future as well. They went out of their way to show it so I think it might be something like Teyla's necklace, something that will reveal itself in the plot somewhere down the road.

I've been really bumming the last few days as I would really like to watch 38 Minutes again, and I don't seem to have it. I thought I had all the eps on the computer or TiVo, but apparantly we missed copying that one over for some reason. I don't have any idea when or if they might reshow it in the near future. Elizabeth was worried about John even then way back when, but Conversion seems amped up a notch if memory serves. And why wouldn't that be as she has had almost a year since then to fall deeper under the spell of our guy.

[Bama]

Before I'm off to snoozeland...a couple of linkos you guys might want to chime in on...I don't know if or who reads what where but letting our huge shep/weir collective voices heard can never be a 'bad' thing if it's done in decent taste. ; )

From my hubby's preferred board...(and yes, I steal his ID at times ; ) ...he *hates* it when I do. LOL! -B

http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php...page=0#1218376

http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php...page=0#1219158