Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Bama]

Yes,

Spoiler:

he was protective of her then but I didn't see him as being jealous. Ronon attacked her when she wasn't looking and he was pretty rough with her. Of course John would be concerned and maybe irritated. He wasn't aware of what Teyla had told Ronon. When Teyla explained to him later that she told Ronan that he didn't have to go easy on her, John's warning of how she should be careful of what she says to him was like a parent or a friend 'advising' the other one to be more careful.
The fact that Ronon came to Teyla's room to apologize hinted at the possibiity of something developing between them (deeper friendship or maybe even ship). He must've felt a little lonely and maybe thought of her as being someone who could understand him.

Vixen, I am SO loving you right now. ; ) I just shot you an email and a request.

Spoiler:

Well, I didn't see the 'jealousy' thing either and rather thought he was just being protective of his teammate but my husband was like "hmmm...he doesn't like big man's (Ronin) hands on that bod." So, you know...males have no clue I've decided. He also makes statements like, "Sheppard just needs to grab her and **** her and she'd shut the ****up.'" everytime Elizabeth gets into with him about something. So, yes, I am married to a neaderthal. LOL.

And I SO agree about the 'room' meeting with teyla and ronin. That was meant to indicate intimacy and sexiness between them.

-a happy!Bama ; )

[Bama]

Wow, this may be the post of the weekend! Great thoughts!!!!

Not to have a go at TPTB behind SGA because I think they do a tremendous job for the most part with SGA and SG-1. I wouldn't enjoy the shows so much otherwise but when it comes to canonical romance they display all the subtlety of sledgehammers. It seem contrived because it was. I think they made a decision prior to casting and scriptwriting that they were actually going to have a ongoing canon romance for the lead but then backtracked at some point and the Sheppard/Teyla Rising scenes were leftover from that initial concept. It's going to sound sexist but male producers/scriptwriters etc in particular seem to think the only thing required for on screen chemistry is to pair to hot actors together and hey presto romance. The audience will see that they both look attractive individually and therefore like seeing them together.

LOL! Many men are indeed DENSE on such matters. Can I ask what may be a stupid question? What does everyone mean by 'canonical' romance? I assume that is a 'pre-fab' job that TPTB come up with before even casting characters and trying out chemistry?




It's not even just that in this particular case Joe/Rachel have less chemistry than Joe/Torri (I think that may be purely due to differing acting styles and experience) but because essentially as characters, Sheppard/Teyla have less to build on in relationship potential than Sheppard/Weir. In Rising I took the scenes between Sheppard/Teyla as a naturally flirtatious man trying to build a rapport with an attractive female stranger and a woman responding to the obvious charm of a very attractive man. Once they became more than just strangers, the flirtation was inappropriate and therefore died a death and friendship replaced it.


Yes, that is EXACTLY what I felt in the premiere. The friendship replaced the initial reaction of 'wow, what a hot alien!' from each of them.


As characters a Sheppard/Teyla relationship just doesn't make sense to me. They don't have anything in their backgrounds,personalities or roles to make them interested romantically in each other. Being pretty just isn't enough. Sheppard and Weir on the other hand - have all kinds of relationship potential. Their backgrounds and personalities are different so that you get the opposites attract effect and at the same time they compliment and balance out one another and their roles give them tremendous common ground. Sheppard stopped flirting with Teyla once she became an intregral part of his team and with Weir he just seems to keep on flirting more and more (but in a much more subtle way). I don't know whether it's conscious, because he's a natural charmer or subconscious because of the rapport that has developed between them. In Rising I kept wondering whether it was supposed to look like Weir had the hots for Sheppard. She just seemed really friendly with this guy she'd only just met. I think now it was an attempt on her part to make him feel extra included because he'd been brought in at the last minute and somewhat reluctantly. Sheppard seemed to respond to that extra warmth from her and everything has just continued to deepen from there on. It's precisely because this ship isn't canon (or maybe it is?) that it draws me in so much. Every word, look and touch between them is extra charged because you don't know what exactly was intended behind it. After being used to shows where TPTB hit you over the head with the canon romance, it's nice to ship for a couple where you feel you are in on a secret (albeit shared by all the many other Sheppard/Weir shippers) relationship, so secret in fact that the individuals involved don't even realise how they feel yet.

LOL! How TRUE! It's like, 'hey, I'm not THAT smart and it is incredibly obvious to me so how can you goobs not GET IT?'

I think the actors have figured it out though if these 'gazefests' are anything to go by! And I love, LOVE, L-O-V-E what you say here about the reasons that Weir and Shep make such good sense. I love romances that start with friendship and understanding and build and build through trials and shared concerns and experiences. Those are the places where you find out if someone is 'right' for you-not in a dark corner somewhere or in a stick fight. ; ) Shep and Weir are 'learning' how right they are for each other right now. Sure, there is that slight low hum of man/woman feeling between them (watch those reactions after

Spoiler:

the huggie)

But they will fall in love long before they test out a lot of that natural sexual attraction.

Great post!!!

-Bama ; )

[LurkerLa]

Spoiler:

Well, I didn't see the 'jealousy' thing either and rather thought he was just being protective of his teammate but my husband was like "hmmm...he doesn't like big man's (Ronin) hands on that bod." So, you know...males have no clue I've decided. He also makes statements like, "Sheppard just needs to grab her and **** her and she'd shut the ****up.'" everytime Elizabeth gets into with him about something. So, yes, I am married to a neaderthal. LOL.

And I SO agree about the 'room' meeting with teyla and ronin. That was meant to indicate intimacy and sexiness between them.

-a happy!Bama ; )

To be fair, there are several males on this thread who do have a clue - but they may just be the exceptional ones.

Another thought occurred to me re:

Spoiler:

a relationship with Simon v. a relationship with John. Actually, one with Simon could have been more problematic, because it could be seen as being worse to be influenced by someone so much lower on the food chain than by someone (i.e. John) who obviously has more experience and knowledge of what's what in the city.

But in either case, it wouldn't have been something to worry about; I don't think Elizabeth would give into pressure from someone if she were in a relationship just because of that relationship. Basically, we've been seeing that John and Elizabeth have each put trust in the other. John trusted that she would see the sense in what he wanted, and she trusted in his military expertise and judgement when she agreed. I honestly think the major concern won't be that she'll cave to him in the future, becuase I know Elizabeth has a backbone in her. More likely problems could arise from the appearance of John's influence. As someone (sorry, can't remember who ) said earlier, Elizabeth, by virtue of being a woman in her position, has to face double standards and extra scrutiny.

Yeah, I know I kinda keep reversing my position on this - but that's what happens when your epiphanies keep coming as you drift off to sleep or when you first wake up.

And, on a lighter note, thanks for the comments on my story!

[Vixen]

Sent ya a reply Bama

Basically, we've been seeing that John and Elizabeth have each put trust in the other. John trusted that she would see the sense in what he wanted, and she trusted in his military expertise and judgement when she agreed. I honestly think the major concern won't be that she'll cave to him in the future, becuase I know Elizabeth has a backbone in her.

Yes

I liked how the camera focused first on John and then on Elizabeth

Spoiler:

when they were telling Rodney that he needs help

[LurkerLa]

Since we were talking about Elizabeth caving in to John...

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...04#post4412304
(Spoilers for Duet)

[smallgirl]

I love romances that start with friendship and understanding and build and build through trials and shared concerns and experiences. Those are the places where you find out if someone is 'right' for you-not in a dark corner somewhere or in a stick fight. ; )Shep and Weir are 'learning' how right they are for each other right now.

ITA! I am complete sucker for romances where the couple start out as friends and then become lovers or even start out as enemies (of sorts) then become friends and eventually lovers. I find them more compelling viewing and more genuine. If the romance is based purely on A thinking B is hot and vice versa then there is a danger that no real common understanding is ever reached because they choose to believe the other is 'right' for them because they desire them rather than feeling desire for them after coming to the conclusion that the other person is the 'right' one. If you are physically attracted to someone it's not that hard to make up a fantasy in your mind of the sort of person you want them to be rather than getting to know who they really are. This can happen in real life sometimes and on TV it's even more likely because we are dealing with fantasy anyway. The writers etc decide A+B=romance without ever giving the audience anything to convince them that A+B makes realistic romantic sense. I don't want to be told a couple of fictional characters are in love, I need to shown that they are. In films because they are soo short, you often have to rely on being told A+B=happy ever after because there isn't time for extensive character development. There is no excuse for it on a TV show.

To answer your question regarding canonical romance. It means that the romantic relationship is actually an established one in the show. That TPTB intend for it to be there. When it comes to Sheppard/Weir we don't know what the intention is. With Teyla/Sheppard there was initially an intention for them to have a relationship pre the start of the show but then that changed, so again we don't know what is intended for the future.

[Bama]

ITA! I am complete sucker for romances where the couple start out as friends and then become lovers or even start out as enemies (of sorts) then become friends and eventually lovers. I find them more compelling viewing and more genuine. If the romance is based purely on A thinking B is hot and vice versa then there is a danger that no real common understanding is ever reached because they choose to believe the other is 'right' for them because they desire them rather than feeling desire for them after coming to the conclusion that the other person is the 'right' one. If you are physically attracted to someone it's not that hard to make up a fantasy in your mind of the sort of person you want them to be rather than getting to know who they really are. This can happen in real life sometimes and on TV it's even more likely because we are dealing with fantasy anyway. The writers etc decide A+B=romance without ever giving the audience anything to convince them that A+B makes realistic romantic sense. I don't want to be told a couple of fictional characters are in love, I need to shown that they are. In films because they are soo short, you often have to rely on being told A+B=happy ever after because there isn't time for extensive character development. There is no excuse for it on a TV show.

To answer your question regarding canonical romance. It means that the romantic relationship is actually an established one in the show. That TPTB intend for it to be there. When it comes to Sheppard/Weir we don't know what the intention is. With Teyla/Sheppard there was initially an intention for them to have a relationship pre the start of the show but then that changed, so again we don't know what is intended for the future.

Really enjoyed your posts today Smallgirl.
Thanks for your answer to my question too.

Let me ask you-you say that TPTB have called off the relationship pursuit between john and teyla. Did they make an announcement or something?
Or do people just assume it is done because of the way it was left dangling in season one?

-B

[SGLAB]

ITA! I am complete sucker for romances where the couple start out as friends and then become lovers or even start out as enemies (of sorts) then become friends and eventually lovers. I find them more compelling viewing and more genuine. If the romance is based purely on A thinking B is hot and vice versa then there is a danger that no real common understanding is ever reached because they choose to believe the other is 'right' for them because they desire them rather than feeling desire for them after coming to the conclusion that the other person is the 'right' one. If you are physically attracted to someone it's not that hard to make up a fantasy in your mind of the sort of person you want them to be rather than getting to know who they really are. This can happen in real life sometimes and on TV it's even more likely because we are dealing with fantasy anyway. The writers etc decide A+B=romance without ever giving the audience anything to convince them that A+B makes realistic romantic sense. I don't want to be told a couple of fictional characters are in love, I need to shown that they are. In films because they are soo short, you often have to rely on being told A+B=happy ever after because there isn't time for extensive character development. There is no excuse for it on a TV show..

Smallgirl, you've made some great points today. This is why I think I like TV shows more than movies. There's more time to develope the characters and their relationships making them more believable in TV.

And I love friendships the best and when a romance is based on a solid friendship that is so much the better.

[Bama]

Since we were talking about Elizabeth caving in to John...

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...04#post4412304
(Spoilers for Duet)

OK...first let me say that if the characters pain him or her so much why the heck even WATCH the dern show? I never watch anything just to be critical. If I don't like it, I turn the channel.

Now, what is the problem with Dr. Weir here anyway? He doesn't like the clipboard trick? Well-HELLO? She is in charge of all systems checks in Atlantis last I knew. Sure, she doesn't do the stuff herself but she oversees those who DO and makes sure everyone is doing their jobs. And let's see...there would be a lot, lot of systems on atlantis I would think. Water filtration, power, defenses, etc, etc, So, this 'she never has anything do crap' is just that. CRAP. She doesn't have a lot of fast, action hero stuff to do and she doesn't go in the field much but hey, she has a smart commander and well-trained men to do the prodding around stuff.

One thing I liked that Martin Wood said on the DVD was that this show is NOT like the original SG1. It was mostly action, exploration and cute one-liners. This show is more about the characters (which I LOVE!) and how they deal with all the problems their new 'world'. I liked how Martin Wood pointed out that they wanted it to be 50/50 with spending time exploring Pegasus and spending time exploring and learning and defending the "huge" city of Atlantis.

If that is the case, then you MUST have someone who is a great ADMINISTRATOR in charge to juggle the teams, their jobs, and the problems that will no doubt arise. Who listens to reports and makes assessments constantly? Who conferences with team leaders Sheppard and McKay and makes command decisions on what they need to do?

Nah, Elizabeth doesn't have much to do at all...just the weight of the world-literally on her shoulders. I'd say she's got quite a lot to do and from the looks of things, she'd better get very good at delegating below John and Rodney because it looks like her diplomatic skills are going to be needed more and more off world and on as they encounter problems throughout the galaxy with other peoples-both friend and foe. But then, she'll have to decide that too won't she?

Pathetic attempt to undermine what I think is a brilliant character.

-B

[LurkerLa]

Well, I didn't reply to the part about the clipboard scene (although I think the person's argument was just that TPTB could have chosen some other way to show how busy and important she was - I think his or her perception was that the clipboard thing is an overused device), but I did respond on the issue of Weir caving in to Shepaprd. I think I was coherent(ish), and I tried not to let my shipper tendencies come through too blatantly (because, unfortunately, that would paint me as simply not wanting anything to mess up my ship). However, I do think the question of Weir giving in to Sheppard raises some interesting points from a variety of angles, shippy and otherwise.

I actually think this is a perfect example of what I was saying earlier about appearances - the problem isn't whether or not she's influenced by or giving in to him, it's how it appears to everyone else.

I do want to say thanks to all in this thread, though, for giving me food for thought on this subject. Perhaps a bit too much food for thought, but thanks just the same.

[Whistler84]

I do want to say thanks to all in this thread, though, for giving me food for thought on this subject. Perhaps a bit too much food for thought, but thanks just the same.

Gah! I asked one question yesterday if anybody else found Elizabeth giving into John too easily, and it spawned three pages worth of intellectual debate that covered command dynamics, work ethics, a bit of a feministic POV regarding appearances of leadership roles, and variety of other deep-seeded issues. That's why I love this thread. In others, you mostly get superfiscal comments about the scenes of interest, but in this one, we go in-depth (sometime even too much! ) about not only scenes, but underlyning ideas and concepts.

I love that, and I love you guys for making this so interesting. I can honestly say that I come out of this thread with a better understanding of the show. Keep up the good conversation.

[Bama]

Well, I didn't reply to the part about the clipboard scene (although I think the person's argument was just that TPTB could have chosen some other way to show how busy and important she was - I think his or her perception was that the clipboard thing is an overused device), but I did respond on the issue of Weir caving in to Shepaprd. I think I was coherent(ish), and I tried not to let my shipper tendencies come through too blatantly (because, unfortunately, that would paint me as simply not wanting anything to mess up my ship). However, I do think the question of Weir giving in to Sheppard raises some interesting points from a variety of angles, shippy and otherwise.

I actually think this is a perfect example of what I was saying earlier about appearances - the problem isn't whether or not she's influenced by or giving in to him, it's how it appears to everyone else.

I do want to say thanks to all in this thread, though, for giving me food for thought on this subject. Perhaps a bit too much food for thought, but thanks just the same.

heh. well, call me a bit 'defensive' when someone tells me admins don't have enough to do. Just wait until my mini-vacation is over as of tommorow and you guys most likely won't see me around nearly so much. (snark face) ; )

I don't want anything to mess up the ship! LOL ; ) however, I see your point gal. The entire power structure needs to make sense but I guess I look at it a little differently too. There was never an 'atlantis' before. There has never been a power module for such an expedition. Earth is just a 'loose' government in a place, far, far away and they have no quick link between them. Elizabeth is making up the rules as she goes along somewhat. If john and elizabeth can make whatever arrangement they have work for *them* as the rulers of atlantis, then who am I too be too critical because it doesn't fit in with a preconcieved notion of what a power structure should be. They care about each other and they trust each other. Those two things will go a long way in making a partnership work and work well.

-Bama

[Easter Lily]

Gah! I asked one question yesterday if anybody else found Elizabeth giving into John too easily, and it spawned three pages worth of intellectual debate that covered command dynamics, work ethics, a bit of a feministic POV regarding appearances of leadership roles, and variety of other deep-seeded issues.

You know what really impressed me about that scene... not that Weir gave into Sheppard easily... but that he actually ASKED her... oh, so charmingly, of course...
If you ask me, I think Martin Gero was being a little cheeky... as if he's doing a neenerneener at the fans...
"But you were going to say "YES"...

[FoolishPleasure]

My feeling on this whole Sheppard/Teyla thing is that it's what TPTB thought male viewers would like.

TPTB were quite mistaken. .take a look at the Shep/Teyla thread and you find it "mostly" full of young girls (most of the profiles show them as "students", and even college students are "young girls" to me. ). My husband wants no Shep/Tey, nor does my teen son. They both think that pairing has no sparkage whatsoever.

Torri on the other hand is very low-key in her image --- she's playing the grown-up, the professional, etc., something that probably appeals more to women. I think because of that position, her interactions with Sheppard are more interesting, and show greater potential for a connection between them.

I'll take the intelligent woman any day over the "hot babe". .Sam Carter has always been my fav on SG1, and look at the hole in that show since she has been away.

I think it's been said that Rachel auditioned a bunch of times, each time with Joe. Had Torri already been given her role by that stage?

I'm pretty sure Torri already had the role. I also heard a rumor that most of Rachel's auditioning was done via videotape and not actually in front of the final casting folks.

BTW. .my husband does enjoy this thread, but he is astounded at the analytical approach and the high level of intelligence exhibited in here. At first he wanted to know, "where are the pics?". I had to point out the difference between a "thunk" thread and a "discussion" thread.

[Whistler84]

TPTB were quite mistaken. .take a look at the Shep/Teyla thread and you find it "mostly" full of young girls (most of the profiles show them as "students", and even college students are "young girls" to me. ).

aww . . . you make me feel like a ten-year old when you say stuff like that.