Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[SallyLizzie]

Actually i think many men who enter the army are semi naive - in regards of their future profession. No matter what type (branch? how do you call that in English guys?) of army you choose you are trained for one purpose only - to kill the enemy.

IMO, he could have more mental problems due to his battlefield experience.

I find that actually very insulting to the thousands of men and women who are willing to put their lives on the line for us. They're are no more or less naive than anyone entering any other profession. It's a career - one a lot more fulfilling than any desk job.

Iirc, there's nothing canon that says he has battlefield experience pre-Atlantis. Obviously, he would have been trained in hand-to-hand combat in the forsight his plane went down and he survived, etc.

I'm not saying that war doesn't affect people, but it doesn't make everyone suicidal or ticking bombs. I know a lot of people from various ages that have been in the forces that are as "normal" as the next person. If you're basing your assumptions on Iraq - which I don't think John ever saw - it would pay to remember that it's a totally different war to those in the past. Even then, my friend (22yrs) is doing his third tour of Iraq and has seen/done some heavy stuff, but when he's home you would never know his profession bc he's just like the rest of us when he hang out - full of fun and laughter.

Also, not everybody is trained to kill. There are many careers within the forces and only a portion is combat. There's cooking, engineering, IT, finance, medics, etc.

Is there a thread or a website that features fan written alternate episodes for Atlantis Season Four?

There are loads of communities on livejournal that have been set up for a virtual S4. Don't know any links off-hand, sorry, but I'm sure if you browse, you'll come across some of them.

i.e. - Suicidal Sheppard point - siege was not the only situation where he exhibited this sort of behaviour - what about Progeny - staying behind knowing for sure you are going to die sounds suicidal to me...

And as a chopper pilot Sheppard would have seen more then his share of gruesome up-close-and-personal images of destruction and death... more so than a diplomat - negotiations rarely take place on the battlefront... except in films

When did he stay behind in Progeny? The only thing I can think of was part of a replicator-induced dream. It wasn't really John.

I'm not part of any military so I can only say what I know from personal accounts and some common sense (I don't watch war films), but the way I see it is, pilots take their planes from the airbase, engage in air combat/transport passengers/do flyovers to drop bombs, parcells, gather intel, then fly back to base. Generally, you aren't going to see death close up, if at all.

I didn't say negotiations took place on the battlefront. I said she would have had to go through villages where the effects of war were evident. Maybe I confused people by saying dead bodies. I didn't mean dead from combat, but from bombs being dropped on villages and tanks going through them, with inncocent people being killed or injured.

[Sukiyaki]

OMG! FCOL!!!! Will you guys stop with the suicidal thing? lol I can't take it anymore! Seriously!

I never said Shep was suicidal, Anuna , sadly, was too tired to get what I had posted the first time and she misinterpreted my point. I said Sheppard wouldn't die like Romeo if Elizabeth were to die like Juliet? Do you guys get it? It means, Sheppard is a grown man and not some emo teenager ready to committ suicide if Lizzie dies ( even if she isn't really dead but just asleep !!! )

Anyway, SL is right. End of story, LOL! *nods*

***grins***

just a random "song lyric" thought... that song from Akon(?) about beautiful girls...

Beautiful girls , that's why it will never work
You had me suicidal, suicidal
When you say it's overrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

yeah enough talk about suicide... we need p0rny Sparky piccies...

[Sukiyaki]

There are loads of communities on livejournal that have been set up for a virtual S4. Don't know any links off-hand, sorry, but I'm sure if you browse, you'll come across some of them.

Thank you, SL. I googled John and Elizabeth fics and there were a lot.

Song Vid recommendations:

1. My Heart Will Go On by Celine Dion
2. When You're Gone by Avril Lavigne
3. The Search is Over by Survivor
4. Bubbly by Colby Colay(?)
5. All I Ask of You (from Phantom of the Opera) by Sara Brightman and Cliff Richards

[Carter-SG-1]

I find that actually very insulting to the thousands of men and women who are willing to put their lives on the line for us. They're are no more or less naive than anyone entering any other profession. It's a career - one a lot more fulfilling than any desk job.
....................

no it isn't - the disillusionment with a desk job is nothing compared to do with the disillusionment a young soldier is faced once shipped of to a "battlefront".
(the film Jarhead might be a good eye-opener )

also PTSD can strike years after the deployment... so don't be fooled by the cheerfulness and "normality" - and yes - i do know what i am talking about - first hand experience...

Spoiler:

When did he stay behind in Progeny? The only thing I can think of was part of a replicator-induced dream. It wasn't really John.

I'm not part of any military so I can only say what I know from personal accounts and some common sense (I don't watch war films), but the way I see it is, pilots take their planes from the airbase, engage in air combat/transport passengers/do flyovers to drop bombs, parcells, gather intel, then fly back to base. Generally, you aren't going to see death close up, if at all.

I didn't say negotiations took place on the battlefront. I said she would have had to go through villages where the effects of war were evident. Maybe I confused people by saying dead bodies. I didn't mean dead from combat, but from bombs being dropped on villages and tanks going through them, with inncocent people being killed or injured.

It was real for john - as it was happening in his head.

And it is insulting to assume pilots don't really experience the battlefronts - just because they are flying - as i said - a helicopter run would have put a pilot smack in the middle of action - to see first-hand the killings and devastation. The same innocent people that could have died in friendly fire or due to a targeting error - the people a potential negotiator might also see ... just a thought...


*perks up*

who mentioned sparky pixies? yes please!

[SazZat]

no it isn't - the disillusionment with a desk job is nothing compared to do with the disillusionment a young soldier is faced once shipped of to a "battlefront".
(the film Jarhead might be a good eye-opener )

spoiler for OT

Spoiler:

I wouldn't go basing your opinions on some stupid movie, to be honest.
I live in a military town. There are loads of young soldiers living here, but you wouldn't know them from ordinary men most of the time. They go out clubbing, they go to the footy, they have families.
War isn't like what it was so many years ago. Soldiers train in academies, some of them even get degrees. They are not naive. Those who train in combat know it is their job. They will spend at least 2 years training for action on the front line.
Sure, they may not always be totally prepared, but they are far from naive.
In the World Wars it was different because the soldiers were ordinary young men volenteering. They weren't trained. Now though, it's a profession and it's a very respected profession. These men and women who go off to war are very intelligent and capable.
That's just my opinion, and obviously it's from a British view point, but I can't see how it's very different from America, seeing as in the USAF you need to get a degree to rise up the ranks. So I think they are pretty well thought out.

No one is saying that war isn't harsh, but these men aren't naive. John strikes me as very intelligent, very much in control of his actions, and very dedicated. That's not naive.

[Blower'sGate]

no it isn't - the disillusionment with a desk job is nothing compared to do with the disillusionment a young soldier is faced once shipped of to a "battlefront".
(the film Jarhead might be a good eye-opener )

also PTSD can strike years after the deployment... so don't be fooled by the cheerfulness and "normality" - and yes - i do know what i am talking about - first hand experience...

I'm sorry but imho you're wrong. First of all, we have to make a clear distinction between PTSD ( Post traumatic Stress Disorder ) and Traumatic stress, PTSD are like you said more prominent amongst military and everything related to battlefronts, war. This doesn't mean a soldier will end up developping PTSD, it might be a simple Traumatic stress that is somewhat intense. The latter can happen to desk jobs people.

Also, SL never implied the cheerfullness and "normality" were real. This is what she saw from these guys, that doesn't mean she's been fooled by it. Second of all, those guys may not have experienced anything on the battlefront that would cause PTSD or Traumatic stress. Soldiers are affected differently. Sometimes their families are the most affected of all, bc of the things their sons, daughters, grand sons.. are going through, and might end up with PTSD without having never been on the battlefront.

I liked Jarhead but it's just one example among many others.

I take under consideration - from what you've said, that you have a first hand experience in the matter but I have mine as well, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter. Bc I still believe you can compare desk jobs to field jobs, hell, you can compare the effects of catastrophies to simple depressions bc in the end it all comes back to how the affected person percieves it. Everybody's mind reacts differently, some people are stronger than others, some are weaker and need great help. This brings me back to suicide. The Suicide Rate for soldiers isn't the highest of all.

It was real for john - as it was happening in his head.

And it is insulting to assume pilots don't really experience the battlefronts - just because they are flying - as i said - a helicopter run would have put a pilot smack in the middle of action - to see first-hand the killings and devastation. The same innocent people that could have died in friendly fire or due to a targeting error - the people a potential negotiator might also see ... just a thought...


*perks up*

who mentioned sparky pixies? yes please!

Sorry again but it's not insulting! She made a point that is true as is the point in saying pilots may experience battlefront differently, I mean other than from the sky. I have a cousin who's a retired pilot and from what he told me his team came across injured people and dead people while going on rescue missions. But he never saw anything more than his helicopter and the environment surrouding him. His job was to fly and that's what he did. After that, again, it depends on how the pilot percieves "devastation and all the killings", does he take sides and is very affected by it or is he just doing his job? This question might definitely affect him though. This isn't always like in the movies.

IMO, a negociator sees as much, if not more of war than a soldier ( but then again it'll depend on WHO we're talking about, there are many things a negociator may never experience that a solider automaticaly will) bc if the negociator can't come up with a solution to find some common ground, lives will remain at stakes. This is when war becomes an unvolontary genocide.

..I'm tired and this won't probably make any sense but I had to say it.

[Carter-SG-1]

i am so glad that all of this is soooo on topic!

please let us all carry on misinterpreting each other rather than talk sparky....

@justhere1971 - you see - lurking is safer

[Blower'sGate]

Well, I never asked for this, maybe you shouldn't have replied to all this in the first place. Although I think this is still on topic bc our heroes may react this way or another, eventually. As long as it affects relationships, I guess it's okay to talk about.

But yeah, let's go back to Sparky.

[justhere1971]

http://sugargroupie.livejournal.com/169218.html

Go read. It's beyond good. R

[justhere1971]

i am so glad that all of this is soooo on topic!

please let us all carry on misinterpreting each other rather than talk sparky....

@justhere1971 - you see - lurking is safer

don't lurk. No one will ever get everyone else to agree with them. It's not in human nature. That's not the point. So what if some do not see it your way, but other do.

Let's just have fun.

[dana]

OT kinda:

Spoiler:

Just for the record (I know no one really cares but I thought WTH) I skipped all those talks about suicide and the quarrels about things that do not belong here in my opinion.

If you have a problem with a certain individual, PM them, don't mull over your differences in this thread (or any other for that matter). This is a Sparky thread.

Also, mocking somebody outside GW where anybody can see it is pretty immature.

These things are driving people away. That (and some other people on other threads) drove me away from GW for several months. I decided to give it another chance. And to be honest I can quite see myself leaving for the second time, not that anybody cares.

[SallyLizzie]

no it isn't - the disillusionment with a desk job is nothing compared to do with the disillusionment a young soldier is faced once shipped of to a "battlefront".
(the film Jarhead might be a good eye-opener )

Yes, like I'm going to everything I see on a tv screen.

I said a career in the forces was more fulfilling than a desk job - I didn't mention pre-conceptions, so what are you going on about? But as you brought it up, I don't agree that the majority of people joining the army are dissullioned. The posters advertise travel, but they know when they sign up they are really signing up to protect Queen and country (in the UK, at current). It's not like they sign up and are immediately flown to the front-lines; they are trained, they are shown what to expect. Granted, it might still be jarring when they get there - like actually seeing a Wraith for the first time - but you still know what to expect.

also PTSD can strike years after the deployment... so don't be fooled by the cheerfulness and "normality" - and yes - i do know what i am talking about - first hand experience...

I'll be sure to tell that to the many 40 yr olds, 50 yr olds, 60 yr olds and 70 yr olds who served in the various wars who are as fine as the rest of us.

In relation to what we were talking about, Shep doesn't have PTSD or any disorder. He's not depressed and he's not suicidal.

It was real for john - as it was happening in his head.

I had a very vivid dream my friend's baby got put up for adoption. It was real for me as it was happening in my head.

And it is insulting to assume pilots don't really experience the battlefronts - just because they are flying - as i said - a helicopter run would have put a pilot smack in the middle of action - to see first-hand the killings and devastation. The same innocent people that could have died in friendly fire or due to a targeting error - the people a potential negotiator might also see ... just a thought...

How would a helicopter run put pilots in the middle of action? Afaik, they haven't done dog-fights since WW2. I'm not saying that they don't see the field from the sky, but they don't see or experience the effects as close as combat fighters do.

I don't see how I was insulting. I have never said non-combat sectors contribute less, or don't contribute, to the war effort. I never said the jobs they do aren't important.

No one is saying that war isn't harsh, but these men aren't naive. John strikes me as very intelligent, very much in control of his actions, and very dedicated. That's not naive.

He could have been mensa!

That's a perfect description of John.

In S1, I think he appeard to rule by his heart more bc he took action instead of talking it out [with Elizabeth]. I think that's actually a mis-conception, though. Elizabeth was a poor leader when she started. So on the occassions when John made a plan but Elizabeth wouldn't listen, he did what needed to be done anyway. He didn't rush into things blindly, or because he loved his colleagues. He saw what needed to be done, came up with a plan, and implented it.

Also, SL never implied the cheerfullness and "normality" were real. This is what she saw from these guys, that doesn't mean she's been fooled by it. Second of all, those guys may not have experienced anything on the battlefront that would cause PTSD or Traumatic stress.

It is real, actually. And he has experienced harsh things. Things that a weak mind would probably not be able to cope with. But he's just as happy as the rest of the gang.

I think there's far too much generalising going on. Every war is different. Every person reacts differently.

We've seen nothing in John and Elizabeth that suggests any of their experiences with war on Earth has had a negative effect on their mental health. Or their experiences in Pegasus, for that matter. In becoming involved in the PG war, both John and Elizabeth have become better at their respective jobs.

i am so glad that all of this is soooo on topic!

please let us all carry on misinterpreting each other rather than talk sparky....

It is on topic. It's discussing John's incentive to help Elizabeth, and how his background applies to that. There's also the sub-topic of experiences shared, if not at the same time, of John and Elizabeth.

And considering you don't find it on-topic, you don't seem to have a problem in replying. But if you've still a problem, take it to the mods. It's what they are there for.

[Blower'sGate]

OT kinda:

Spoiler:

Just for the record (I know no one really cares but I thought WTH) I skipped all those talks about suicide and the quarrels about things that do not belong here in my opinion.

If you have a problem with a certain individual, PM them, don't mull over your differences in this thread (or any other for that matter). This is a Sparky thread.

Also, mocking somebody outside GW where anybody can see it is pretty immature.

These things are driving people away. That (and some other people on other threads) drove me away from GW for several months. I decided to give it another chance. And to be honest I can quite see myself leaving for the second time, not that anybody cares.

Well, obviously you should have taken the time to read our posts.

[Southern Red]

OT kinda:

Spoiler:

Just for the record (I know no one really cares but I thought WTH) I skipped all those talks about suicide and the quarrels about things that do not belong here in my opinion.

If you have a problem with a certain individual, PM them, don't mull over your differences in this thread (or any other for that matter). This is a Sparky thread.

Also, mocking somebody outside GW where anybody can see it is pretty immature.

These things are driving people away. That (and some other people on other threads) drove me away from GW for several months. I decided to give it another chance. And to be honest I can quite see myself leaving for the second time, not that anybody cares.

We do care hon, and I totally agree. This place used to be a safe haven for all of us, and it can be again. Please let's just talk about Sparky. This is a great time for us right now. Allow me to review and maybe do a soft reset of the thread.

1. Not too long ago we found out that all the delicious Sparky has not been in our minds after all but was done deliberately.

2. Yes, we are probably not going to see our ship become canon but I doubt any ship will be canon on this show. At least soon.

3. We have gotten so much more than we expected in S4. I am quite pleased with what I've seen.

Spoiler:

Did anyone expect so much emotion from John? The way he reacted to losing her has been stupendous. Thanks to JF for a great performance and for remembering Torri. They are actually talking about her in every episode. Did anyone really think they'd do that? Again, thanks to Joe.

4. I see the potential from continued Sparky for the whole first half. Who knows what will happen?

Spoiler:

I think John is planning a rescue.

5. TMC is going to be another Sparkyfest. No matter what happens I think it will be intense. Fics and vids galore will be born. And we will always be able to say that she lives in his heart. No matter what happens and who he ends up with.

Now, in summary and in reminder...this is just a tv show. It will not change our lives in any way. Are we here to enjoy the moments or to argue? Let's enjoy.

[Anjirika]

Spoiler:

And Ronon/Teyla just about made me squee....

Is there a thread or a website that features fan written alternate episodes for Atlantis Season Four?

Oh yes, that was amazing and as for alternate episodes for season four *cough* self promoting *cough*
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3549545/1/Everlasting <my own version of season 4 totally Au)
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3822810/...d_Elizabeth_Do <my own version of season four with Lizzie yet staying within canon>
Enjoy!

I may be experiencing a terminal case of wishful thinking but in Reunion

Spoiler:

I am hoping that John is just going through the motions with asking permission of Carter and the IOA so he can say he exhausted all resources later when he makes his daring rescue. Smart writers would have him devising a master plan behind the scenes...oh wait. Sigh.

Oh, that would be amazing.

<snip> Iirc, there's nothing canon that says he has battlefield experience pre-Atlantis. Obviously, he would have been trained in hand-to-hand combat in the forsight his plane went down and he survived, etc.
<snip>
When did he stay behind in Progeny? The only thing I can think of was part of a replicator-induced dream. It wasn't really John.
<snip>

Uh- what about in that one episode in season three when

Spoiler:

they were all delusional and John was trying to save his friend. Wasn't that battlefield experience?
And in terms of Progeny- of course it was John. Just because it was in his head doesn't mean it was any less real. Although I think that shows that if push came to shove (as it has in the past) John would do what he needed to do to make sure that everyone he cared about was safe.

No one is saying that war isn't harsh, but these men aren't naive. John strikes me as very intelligent, very much in control of his actions, and very dedicated. That's not naive.

In a sense I agree, but I gotta wonder if John turned Mensa down and went into the military because he was lacking something at home with his father. Of course, we'll have to wait till Outcast to see if any of this is true or not.

i am so glad that all of this is soooo on topic!

Actually, I think it is on topic because we're delving into Sheppard and what makes his pre-canon psyche because so much of that has to do with how and why he acts now.

In S1, I think he appeard to rule by his heart more bc he took action instead of talking it out [with Elizabeth]. I think that's actually a mis-conception, though. Elizabeth was a poor leader when she started. So on the occassions when John made a plan but Elizabeth wouldn't listen, he did what needed to be done anyway. He didn't rush into things blindly, or because he loved his colleagues. He saw what needed to be done, came up with a plan, and implented it.

I don't think that Elizabeth was a poor leader in the first season at all. I think that she was just a very cautious nonn-military leader. She saw the bigger picture and was rather stuck in her ways. I don't think that makes her a poor leader at all because she grew- she changed. The people and events made her realise that she couldn't just dismiss the people and worry about the situaiton. Her actions in Hot Zone and Rising in particular were perfectly normal with someone of her background. Don't be rash, exhaust all possible situations etc. John however was always people based and ready to do whatever needed to be done to save those people- so yes he did come up with plans (or partial plans) and implemented them. A la Hot Zone.

And now fellow sparky fans- I have to get back to studying.